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    Joined: Apr 2013
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    Quote
    ... I just don't believe that the majority of charters are anything more than for-profit money-making schemes at this point. frown
    There is good and bad everywhere. Just as a negative experience with a few teachers or gifted kids is best not generalized to all teachers, or gifted kids, the greed evident in some charters may best not be generalized to all charters.

    In casting a wider net to seek examples beyond our own personal experiences, some may wish to look at the organization greatschools which gathers and provides basic information on many schools, including public and charters. Greatschools also maintains a collection of articles which range in topic from gifted ed... to questions to ask and what to observe to ensure a good "fit"... to what to do when the teacher is a bully.

    There are also many books featuring schools which may be role models and provide inspiration for what is possible. Here is one such book, there are many others featured on the same amazon page http://www.amazon.com/No-Excuses-Lessons-High-Performing-High-Poverty/dp/0891950907/

    Some charters have high graduation rates, and high rates of students going on to post-secondary education.

    While schools often stimulate competition among students as a means of keeping children striving to constantly improve their personal best, and tout this as great real-world experience, it seems ironic that some may not believe that same sense of competition among various educational institutions may keep the institutions striving to constantly improve themselves.

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    I feel great about dd's TAG school. It is seriously wonderful.
    The neighborhood school my ds was going to was nice. Pleasant teachers and principal, gave me what I asked for when I asked for it for ds, nice grounds, good families there. However, when a charter opened up nearby, we ran to it. His current class has 14 children, a full time teacher and a full time TA. They don't have the same kinds of resources that the public school has but they do so much more with the children.

    I feel good about the public schools in my middle class town.

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    Originally Posted by somewhereonearth
    ... 15 minute diatribe...
    I am so sorry for your child's negative experience. Yet I am so relieved that he could pinpoint and articulate his disappointment, and feel safe in expressing these deep negative feelings to you. The next phase after awareness and outrage may be apathy and underachievement. You may wish to rescue kiddo before further damage occurs from his non-learning environment.

    Many kids love to learn, and begin to loathe school when they correctly observe the school actively or passively thwarting learning.

    Many believe that focusing on encouraging the love of learning will naturally bring up performance and test results;
    Paradoxically focusing on bringing up test results may wither both the love of learning and subsequent student performance.

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    As Dude noted on the previous page, though-- the one real-world example that we have to work from is in higher ed. It hasn't worked appreciably well there, either.

    And one can definitely argue that the complicating factors associated with primary and secondary compulsory education are mostly missing from that picture, making it even simpler.


    Unfortunately, market theory only works when the assumptions underlying it are valid. Those assumptions are not necessarily valid here-- that is, that those who start charter schools are MOST concerned with quality as a means of competing, and that they are determined to "succeed" in terms of student-as-product, not student-as-consumer.

    The latter leads to the same place that it has in higher ed. Making students (as a demographic) "happy" is a very very far cry from doing a good job educating them. Not all students enjoy the process of learning, particularly when they are well accustomed to picking up trophies just for showing up.

    Higher ed has adjusted with ever-more-luxurious settings for students to 'learn' in, and watering down content to make them all FEEL smart (even in remedial coursework)... and that's the regular, NPO (public or private) side of things.

    The for-profit higher ed sector most resembles payday loan operations, quite frankly.

    While I respect that your opinion and mine differ here, indigo, I have been inside of a charter organization (and one that is reasonably reputable, I might add) for the past decade, and what I've seen is that they are INNATELY corrupt or at least corruptible upon success. They ultimately view the enterprise as a business, and don't care any more about students than Microsoft cares about its customers. Oh, sure-- they want the money to keep rolling in, all right, but that's NOT the same thing. My own charter organization has figured out that slick marketing covers a world of sins, because it doesn't MATTER if you have high turnover in students. As long as there is a fresh crop of them, you're set. Once a charter learns this basic truth, the jig is up for quality instruction. THAT is a waste of resources; rather like McDonald's serving filet mignon and worrying about what food critics will say. Once a charter is a "success" the decay seems almost inevitable.

    I also saw some of the first K-12 charter efforts in the state that I was a faculty member in over a decade ago. It's not really different than higher ed. It just isn't. The details and org charts may differ, but exactly the same pitfalls exist and for exactly the same reasons. Human beings want the easy route. Even when "easy" isn't right.

    They may SAY one thing, and do something quite different, even if it isn't rational-- that's where model and theory break down.

    As noted; I've really, really, really tried to view charters and vouchers as "the" solution. But I don't think that they are-- or CAN be, honestly. That model is too prone to abuses for financial gain.

    My own undergrad institution was a traditional teacher's college-- yes, the majors were "nice" people, and most of them earnest and passionate about teaching. They were also a group that mostly COULDN'T HANDLE the "majors" content. Even later, as a faculty member, there was a clear, bright line between our "teaching majors" and our "majors" in my department. I'd estimate about a 20 point IQ difference between the two distributions, myself. This was in a STEM domain, too.

    At least we tried to turn out students who would become competent high school science teachers. Some departmental requirements don't ask anything beyond sophomore level material of those people. frown


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    What makes me particularly frustrated and upset is my son's nosedive with regard to his attitude to school and the adults in it. He went on a 15 minute diatribe the other day after I asked him if he wanted to learn about something. He screamed at me, "I don't want to LEARN about anything. Learning is the worst thing in the world and I hope that nobody on the planet ever has to learn anything ever. Learning is so horrible!"

    I started to laugh. I thought that he was kidding because all DS loves to do is learn. Then I asked him what learning means. He said, "learning is what you do in school when you have to sit there all day and learn things that you already know. Learning is sitting and being bored and listening to grown ups talk about the most boring things and then they ignore you all day."

    Oh, dear. I should probably ask DS11 the same question. I've heard that 15-minute diatribe (it gets longer, the older he gets) so many times.

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    Originally Posted by indigo
    In casting a wider net to seek examples beyond our own personal experiences, some may wish to look at the organization greatschools which gathers and provides basic information on many schools, including public and charters. Greatschools also maintains a collection of articles which range in topic from gifted ed... to questions to ask and what to observe to ensure a good "fit"... to what to do when the teacher is a bully.

    LOL.

    School grades just came out, and DD's previous institution earned a D. Greatschools.com gives it 4 stars. They feature only one user comment since 2009.

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    Once a xxxxxxx is a "success" the decay seems almost inevitable.
    Agreed. I have taken the liberty of changing the word charter to xxxxxxx above because it may be applicable as a general statement: Some have seen doctors, dentists, schools of all types, and other institutions follow this path from success to hubris and demise.

    Some have observed that the presence of a balance of competing organizations may tend to sustain the length of time of true customer-oriented (or student-orientated, patient-oriented) service. To the degree this has applied to corporations, we have had strong anti-trust legislation, preventing the amassing of money, power, and control by monoliths. Some may ask whether what is needed may be more choices, not fewer?

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    Exactly, Dude.

    The problem with ratings sites (just in general terms) is that there are MOSTLY only two responses in "crowdsourcing" efforts like that.

    1. REALLY angry people who are highly motivated for personal reasons to be negative-negative-negative (and if you look at Amazon reviews for pretty much anything, you get some idea what I'm driving at there-- a lot of the time, those reviews have NOTHING to do with the quality or suitability of a particular product, so much as the stupid assumptions of the person writing)

    2. Paid shills who write such glowing commentary that it would be frankly delusional if it were real.

    By the way-- OUR school URGES parents to do #2, there, going so far as to offer up suggested verbiage and links to a variety of sites to post our "reviews." Really not kidding. That has been a recent phenomenon, since Pearson's acquisition. That's the problem, though-- an appealing, successful charter WILL get gobbled up by those who see dollar signs.


    Originally Posted by indigo[/quote
    we have had strong anti-trust legislation, preventing the amassing of money, power, and control by monoliths

    How's that been workin' out? wink


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    While I respect that your opinion and mine differ here, indigo, I have been inside of a charter organization (and one that is reasonably reputable, I might add) for the past decade, and what I've seen is that they are INNATELY corrupt or at least corruptible upon success. They ultimately view the enterprise as a business, and don't care any more about students than Microsoft cares about its customers.
    Microsoft, Apple, Intel, and other tech companies are all for-profit companies, and the quality of their products has improved over the years. The profit motive is not inimical to serving the consumer, as you seem to think.


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    Originally Posted by Dude
    School grades just came out, and DD's previous institution earned a D. Greatschools.com gives it 4 stars. They feature only one user comment since 2009.
    You raise a good point, no one source of data should be taken as definitive. For example, data may be old, institutions may be reluctant to share negative reviews out of concern for possible legal consequences, etc. Yet on balance the data you have found may raise a red flag, and encourage parents to visit the articles on choosing schools (what to observe, what to ask, what might be a good fit).

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