Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Woodcock Johnson and WISC to diagnose LD?

I am calling around trying to figure out where to get my DD assessed (main concern is processing speed/working memory, probably because of ADHD--see my other post about finding good testers), and one place I called charges $1075 to do the WJ achievement tests and WISC IV. I don't know anything about the WJ achievement tests. I already know that DD is scoring well above the 90th percentile on reading/math achievement tests at school. Her main problem is that she's very slow with written work. So would the combination of those two tests give us a good idea of what her problem is (and what accommodations the school should make)? This place specializes in learning disablities and they give those two tests (and only those two tests unless you want an ADHD workup for an additional $400) as part of the package.

Here's the list of tests that they did with my DS that ruled out ADHD and came out with gifted and LD in processing speed and working memory.

- WISC IV
- Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning - Second Edition (WRAML-2)
- Conner's Teacher & Parent Version
- Weshler Individual Achievement Test (WIAT-III)
- Structured Developmental History - Second Edition (BASC-2)

I'm not an expert but I don't think we got anything out of the BASC-2. The WIAT-III tests academic functioning and has reading, mathematics, written language, oral expression and listening comprehension categories (each with subcategories) and then gives you a percentile and grade equivalent for each. It was interesting to see (and probably very useful if you were to advocate a grade skip) but maybe they might be able to do without. I would assume you've already done the Conner's if she has an ADHD diagnosis, if not that would probably be useful (again I'm not an expert so I'm guessing here).

I have no idea about Woodcock Johnson.

We had to do inventories for the pediatrician when she was diagnosed with ADHD--so I assume that was the Conner's or something similar. Did you get useful info out of the WRAML-2 that you didn't get from other tests?

Do you have insurance? Most insurance plans cover what they call "behavioral health." You should be able to get an assessment (including ADHD screening, IQ and achievement testing) covered by insurance due to behavior issues/concerns. We were able to get a full battery of tests administered by a neuropsych 100% covered by our insurance.

Having both ability and achievement testing was an integral piece of diagnosing my 2e children's challenges. My dysgraphic ds had had the WJ-III Achievement tests used along with the WISC, and this is how they were useful for him:

The WISC shows dips in processing speed subtest scores (and additional neuropsych testing combined with observations by the neuropsych while ds was writing as well as reviews of his schoolwork showed that the low processing speed scores were due to fine motor challenges).

The WJ-III Achievement subtests had scatter in the scores all over the place - some really high, some really low. When they are grouped together based on type of response (oral vs motor vs handwritten vs handwritten+timed) trends pop out. The oral response subtests have scores in the same range as ds' IQ. the motor response subtest (I think there was only one - where he had to circle or something like that) was quite a bit lower. The subtests that required handwritten responses but were not timed were around the 60th percentile (which is *way* low compared to what I had expected based on IQ), and the subtests that required handwritten responses and were also timed had scores below the 20th percentile. If you didn't know what you were looking at, it would be easy to think that either - hey, this kid isn't really doing all that well in school or isn't really all that smart, or - hey, this test is completely bogus and doesn't reflect my child's obvious out-of-the-box level of knowledge - and neither one is really what's up. What it *does* show, and shows very well - is that without accommodations, the act of handwriting is preventing my ds from showing his knowledge, and that's *exactly* what you want to have as data when advocating for a child who has a handwriting disability. So they are *very* useful tests to have, if you understand how to look at them, to determine if there is a challenge with handwriting and how it's impacting your child.

That's a *handwriting* challenge - but it's also possible there's a different reason your dd is slow with written work. Does it take her a long time to come up with ideas to write about? That might also show up in one of the WJ-III Achievement Writing subtests (I can't remember the name of it, but my ds had this challenge when he was first tested, and it showed up as another anomalously low subtest score).

If the challenge is simply speed of handwriting, it will be useful to time her while she's writing, count the number of letters per minute and compare it to age or grade level averages (which you can find online).


This depends on what you learn through the testing, and on what you know about your dd from observing. If you google "dysgraphia accommodations" you can find quite a few typical lists, and if you search through old posts here you can find suggestions. Your tester will also most likely have suggestions for you. Typical accommodtions for dysgraphic students include moving to keyboarding. If you don't find what you're looking for, let me know and I'll list out the progression of accommodations our ds has used through the years.

I think that the fact this is a business that specializes in LD is a good thing - combining the ability vs achievement testing is very *very* common for assessing LDs. My only concern would be that you might need just one more step to really understand what's up - for instance, your dd might have a low processing speed score on the WISC, and a separation on WJ-III Achievement that shows she's being held back by her handwriting and is quite possibly dysgraphic - but there are different *types* of dysgraphia (different causes), and these two tests alone won't tell you if it's a fine motor challenge, a visual processing challenge, or spelling-related etc.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Our insurance plan is terrible and they won't even cover neuropsych exams for autism or cognitive impairment (i.e. low IQ). It specifically mentions no testing for ADHD, learning disabilities, or developmental delay. DS's neuropsych testing was covered because he had a traumatic brain injury and had some obvious brain damage (for instance an eye that was stuck and crossed). That is one exception they make.

Thanks, yes she does have problems with writing--not in terms of spelling or handwriting, but the overall speed and she can't come up with ideas. She can't do creative writing at all and writes the same story about her cats over and over again (complete with a drawing of a dead cat and caption saying "dead cat" or something). Her second grade teacher last year said that this is not what she was expecting compared to her other abilities. I am hoping that this place would be able to get at whether this is a written expression problem, or a problem with the ADHD and not being able to organize her thoughts, or what.

Is the "slowness" related to actual handwriting speed or lack of being able to think of what to write? Do you see slowness across the board (for instance, when she's copying, or writing an explanation of a fact that she knows what she wants to write? Or only when she has an open-ended writing assignment?

This testing can help you determine if handwriting speed is an issue due to dysgraphia (which it doesn't sound like it is), and there is the one subtest that will show you whether or not she's below expectations with "generating written expression"... but fwiw, my ds also had these same challenges with generating ideas of *what* to write about, particularly with open-ended assignments, and for him it was related to an expressive language disorder and we did *not* get the info or help we needed for that through this type of assessment. The assessment that pinpointed what was the issue re this type of challenge was through a speech pathologist (he has a diagnosis of expressive language disorder) and the *help* he's needed also came through working with a speech language pathologist. Sorry to throw out yet another suggestion that's slightly in a different direction for you, and again, that might not be what's going on with your dd...

Anyway, the accommodations we've done for ds re this type of challenge (long time coming up with ideas to write about)... were graphic organizers in early elementary and specific prompting, give him a specific place to start rather than a completely open-ended direction, give him an outline, software that turned mind-maps into outlines, etc. Once he started working with a speech pathologist she was able to help find very specific prompts and tricks that helped get the ideas flowing... but they were so specific to him I don't think they are worth mentioning on the board because they won't apply to all kids with the same challenge (you can pm me if you'd like more info). This has actually been much more of a challenge for our ds than his handwriting challenge, because there are so many AT solutions for handwriting.

Gotta run - hope this makes sense!

polarbear

That's funny about the story. Her teacher showed it to me last year and I LOL thinking it was hilarious, then the teacher went on to say that it's just no good. Black Cat is one of the cats we got to replace the dead one. Her name is actually Pixie, but I think that username was taken.

Before meds, she was unable to even write 2 sentences without people pulling out their hair. She is better, but unless someone is very specific about what they want her to write (asking a specific question) she is unable to come up with anything. She doesn't understand the concept of writing a fictional story. But she also doesn't play either, and never has, so that's not too surprising. She can be creative--she designs brilliant things on Minecraft for instance. Her speech/language is good and she often sounds much older than she is. I just can't figure out what the deal is with written work, esp. since her spelling and handwriting seem fine.

FWIW, this sounds *exactly* like my ds.

The stories about the cats are cracking me up too! Our ds never wrote about dead cats, but when he had to write in early elementary and was absolutely forced to do it, he had a pig character he wrote about. Every single darn story was about that pig (not that there were all that many stories).... His teachers never realized it but choosing the pig was ds' way of being a bit snarky about the whole situation

pbear