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    Joined: Aug 2010
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    I am horrified to hear about this and just want to tell you that it doesn't have to be this way. frown My DS is in K and is allowed to read whatever he wants during free reading time. He is on a Droon kick right now and is reading those at school at the moment.

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    I know our teachers limit what's out because they want any child to be able to pick up any book they see and be able to read it. They don't want kids knowing there are books that are beyond them because it would frustrate them.

    WTF? Really? I can't even express what I think of this. I guess I'd better remove all the adult books from my house?

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    Irena Offline OP
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    I did show restraint because what I really want to say to her is that her job would be much easier and probably more fulfilling if she stopped spending so much time trying to prove and trying convince me (and DS) that DS really isn't ready for higher level work and really should just be content with doing what is given to him (regardless of how insipid or below him it is).

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    That is such a perversion of the purpose of 100 book challenge,which is to get kids to practice and enjoy reading. Our school has 100 book challenge for 1st through 3rd grade, which combine some reading time at school plus homework reading time. In fact, the teachers encouraged the students to get books from the school library and the public library and through purchase as there is a limit to how many basekts/books the school can provide and some kids/parents don't have the resources.

    This is an argument that I would pursue. Were it not for the extensive collection of 3rd to 5th grade books that DS' 1st grade teacher (who previously taught 3rd grade) kept in the room and permitted access after the first few weeks of school, my DS might well have continued to get into trouble after he finished his work early.

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    I try to put myself in teachers' shoes and figure out where they are coming from. A lot of the time I see that it's just that they can't handle extra work or complexity, which I get. But this is the kind of stuff I don't get. Why would she care? What is the fear? As I say to my DD: what is your main concern?

    Does your DS have a history of poor performance on reading evaluations in some fashion? Is she worried that other people will ask for things like this? Is she just a very rigid and rule-minded individual? Is she mad at you for other reasons and just feeling pissy?

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    Originally Posted by Irena
    Anyway, it was about "obedience" and he was "disobedient" and this is to "teach him to follow directions."
    In middle school educational institutions may begin to value student-exhibited characteristics of setting goals, thinking for themselves, taking responsibility for ensuring they are learning, knowing when to make an appropriate exception to rules and guidelines to overcome hurdles and keep learning, and generally being self-determining. Unfortunately, our children who are self-determining at a young age may have this drummed out of them by a system which essentially breaks them with arbitrary and ever-changing rules with little philosophical consistency.

    You have noticed how fast your cheetah runs when given an antelope to chase. This is a reference to Stephanie Tolan's metaphor, Is it a Cheetah?, as applied to your child excelling at math and at reading when exposed to higher level work, a challenge worthy of his potential.

    A teacher/school/program presenting only lower level books so no child may feel disheartened by the idea there is more difficult material available, not only creates a ceiling but also encourages fixed mindset.

    While in some cases sharing resources with teachers about the characteristics and development of gifted children may help alleviate this damage to our children (when it is unintended), in other cases educators may read or have joined forums and discussion groups such as this specifically to gain information about how to slow down gifted kids, as the teachers/schools/programs may be evaluated on closing a performance gap, achievement gap, excellence gap in their classroom. Parents may need to learn the philosophy of the educational institution, be willing to acknowledge if it is toxic for their child, and leave.

    In the view of educational institutions, giftedness may increasingly be defined not as how the child IS, or learns, or thinks, or develops differently... but in terms of achievement. Achievement can be managed downwards or squelched, damaging the child by giving no-win choices. One example might be: learn by reading at your appropriate level and be considered as misbehaving -or- read below your level and be considered compliant. In this scenario, the child is forced to either be compliant by not learning... or be considered defiant and learn. This may encourage underachievement. A winning scenario would be pairing compliance with learning, in which the child is considered as engaging in appropriate & desired behavior by reading at their appropriate or challenge level.

    Vast research has been done regarding underachievement. This research was ostensibly intended to avoid instilling the maladaptive behavior of underachievement in kids. Like any tool, this may be used for other than it's intended purpose. Some may glean from this research HOW TO create the maladaptive behavior of underachievement in gifted kids.

    Where to go from here? Possibly acquainting the teacher/school/program with material on the growth mindset, as this is a benefit to all students?

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    Irena Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    I try to put myself in teachers' shoes and figure out where they are coming from. A lot of the time I see that it's just that they can't handle extra work or complexity, which I get. But this is the kind of stuff I don't get. Why would she care? What is the fear?

    Exactly. My feelings exactly. I am making it easy for her - I got books DS likes and are of high interest to him, in his 'designated level' per the 100 book challenge website, and put them in his bookbag. He rarely likes the 100-book challenge books and this is what we did last year to deal with that. Occassionally his teacher last year would be annoyed about the level of the book but usually she left him alone.

    From what I got I took from our conversation this morning,

    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Is she worried that other people will ask for things like this?
    This;

    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Is she just a very rigid and rule-minded individual?
    This;

    and possibly this:
    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Is she mad at you for other reasons and just feeling pissy?

    He's at the highest level in the class and does well on his reading tests ...

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    Irena Offline OP
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    Thanks, Indigo. There is a lot of good information in your post and eloquently put... I this I will use it when we need to discuss this again in the future. I especially like this:

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    Achievement can be managed downwards or squelched, damaging the child by giving no-win choices. One example might be: learn by reading at your appropriate level and be considered as misbehaving -or- read below your level and be considered compliant. In this scenario, the child is forced to either be compliant by not learning... or be considered defiant and learn. This may encourage underachievement. A winning scenario would be pairing compliance with learning, in which the child is considered as engaging in appropriate & desired behavior by reading at their appropriate or challenge level.

    Last edited by Irena; 10/03/13 09:29 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Irena
    ... I will use...
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    Achievement can be managed downwards or squelched, damaging the child by giving no-win choices. One example might be: learn by reading at your appropriate level and be considered as misbehaving -or- read below your level and be considered compliant. In this scenario, the child is forced to either be compliant by not learning... or be considered defiant and learn. This may encourage underachievement. A winning scenario would be pairing compliance with learning, in which the child is considered as engaging in appropriate & desired behavior by reading at their appropriate or challenge level.
    Here is something from another thread to also consider... in addition to achievement being supported or managed downwards, possibly executive function may either be supported or managed downwards?
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    ... article on predicting student success which acknowledges the SAT and other contributory factors: http://growingleaders.com/blog/one-gigantic-predictor-success-students/

    In recent discussions about the marshmallow experiment, several of us noted that other factors may be at play:
    1) How well the subject may like a marshmallow. In a similar experiment, might students choose their own treat?
    2) The degree to which students have developed a sense of trust in the powers-that-be. Might a separate survey be conducted to learn, for example, whether some parents may make promises and not follow through, perhaps counting on the child to "forget"?

    These factors may continue to play out through out the student's life.
    1) Do they like the idea of college (marshmallow)? Or would they be more motivated if they could choose their own treat?
    2) Have others followed through on commitments (learning about and writing stellar recommendation letters, for example)?

    In addition to measuring willingness to delay gratification, some of this seems to be about the student's perceived place in society: ability to be self-determining, and receive support.
    Emphasis added.

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    Oh, Irena. frown


    I'm so sorry.

    This is AWFUL.

    If I may make a suggestion? When dealing with elementary educators, I've found that it is often successful/wise to take a non-confrontational approach that permits them (no matter how incompetent their thinking/approach) to come to the correct conclusions THEMSELVES. In colloquial terminology this could be termed the "two hands and a flashlight" model of communication.

    I think that I may be confused about this. Can you help me?

    (Oh, am I ever "confused" about this-- because it's RIDICULOUS.)

    What is the learning objective for this activity? I'm not sure that I understand that, and I'd like to be able to support it from our end, as well.

    (Make the teacher go back to-- WHY is this in the curriculum, again?)


    Oh-- that's lovely! What a great thing!

    (Now teacher is listening to YOU, because you are being compliant and friendly)

    Hmm-- yes, I can see how that is a great goal! Uh oh, though-- what if my child isn't finding {plan} engaging enough to be compliant?? I agree that this is a big problem in a classroom. I'm not sure that I'm understanding why my child is being punished-- how will that accomplish {objective} here?

    Clearly, a problem exists... wonder what WE can do to solve this... wink (This isn't confrontational if it's done with genuine confusion-- which, okay, is actually the only rational response here aside from ANGER, which will make teacher oppositional again.)

    What do you suggest we can try so that this activity isn't feeling like punishment?


    If teacher comes up empty, you can ask "Can we try -----?" questions to feed solutions in.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    That teacher got me thinking about whether schools are supposed to train obedience, which led me to this long PDF by Seth Godin called Stop Stealing Dreams.
    http://www.sethgodin.com/sg/docs/stopstealingdreamsscreen.pdf

    In particular this bit:
    Quote
    Column A
    Aware
    Caring
    Committed
    Creative
    Goal-setting
    Honest
    Improvising
    Incisive
    Independent
    Informed
    Initiating
    Innovating
    Insightful
    Leading
    Strategic
    Supportive

    or
    Column B
    Obedient

    Which column do you pick? Whom do you want to work for or work next to? Whom do you want to hire? Which doctor do you want to treat you? Whom do you want to live with?

    Last question: If you were organizing a trillion-dollar, sixteen-year indoctrination program to turn out the next generation of our society, which column would you build it around?

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