Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Dd's writing is holding her back

DD7 (2nd grader) is in a 2nd/3rd split G&T class this year and so far she is happier than she has been in the past 2 years.

I volunteered a few times for reading in the class and the teacher had me work with her reading group in the hall. Dd is in a group with 2 other boys, neither boy reads well. They are 2nd graders and I would say their reading is probably not at grade level. They were assigned to read the first 2 chapters of a Cam Jansen book and then write any descriptions they find for the main character. We went through what they wrote, dd actually added more to the discussion that wasn't known to the boys because she had read ahead. The next time I helped, the teacher wanted me to take turns having them read out loud (in the hallway). Both boys are slow and laborious with their reading. I couldn't figure out why dd was grouped with them. I know her reading isn't perfect and she tends to make a lot of mistakes when she reads orally because she goes too fast.

Since this time I haven't been back in to volunteer. Late last week dd tells me that she is reading Frog and Toad in her reading group. (put shocked face here) This is a book she read in kindergarten. She was above grade level in first grade so I can't understand why she is in a reading group where she is reading a book with a DRA level of 16/18. So I emailed the teacher, told her that Frog and Toad is a book she read two years ago, told her what books she currently reads (3rd and 4th grade level books) and the number of hours she spends reading each night. I kindly asked if dd had her reading assessed and, if so, perhaps she had an off day for the assessment and could she be re-assessed.

She replied that dd actually tested at a late 3rd grade/early 4th grade level but that she's "mostly assessing her ability to provide a written summary". She also says that with dd's group, "they are working on "shorter" books, like Cam Jansen/Frog and Toad, that will provide them with a better potential to write a summary" and "books that are more straight-forward can allow for the instruction that I need for her at the moment".

I know that writing is a true weakness for her, has been since kindergarten. When it comes to homework she will avoid the writing assignments and do more math homework to avoid the writing. I do make it easier for her at times by having her dictate to me what she wants to write, I write it, then she copies it down into her notebook.

Should she really be held back in reading because of her writing? I learned from another mom, with a child in an older grade in the G&T class, that they combine the reading and writing instruction together like this. There is no separate writing block or reading block.

Have any of you ever come across this problem? How should I approach this.... let it be... or request that dd be moved up and accommodate her writing? I really can't understand how putting a child 1-2 years behind in reading due to poor writing output is a good idea.

ETA dd's test results from last year in case anybody has any insight as to if any of her subtest scores correlate with writing struggles.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/135930/1.html

ETAx2 we are doing the Handwriting Without Tears printing book at home.

If they are working on summarizing in the reading groups, rather than pure reading, I'd leave it as it is for now. My ds struggles with summarizing in particular (he has an expressive language disorder, so I am sure he's much more challenged than your dd with summarizing) - but the way that he is being taught to summarize is by working at books lower than his reading level. This just seems to be a strategy that makes sense to me, and the ability to summarize is an important skill. In my ds' case, he was reading and fully comprehending college-level books by early elementary, but when it was time for him to do a class project or research type presentation, he would stumble all over the place in how to summarize what he'd learned through reading. Our schools never really did much in terms of direct "reading" instruction once kids were past the very early learning to read stage, but that didn't seem to hold back either my ds or my older dd in their reading ability - they seemed to simply pick up speed and move forward all on their own. My youngest dd didn't, but she's dyslexic so not typical at all.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - I took a quick look at your scores post - two things I noticed - her PRI is much higher than her VCI, which might mean she's just simply more of a mathy type person. Both are strong scores, so nothing screams out "SOS" Her coding score is low relative to her other scores *but* it's still "average" - for some kids, a large discrepancy between coding and other scores can be a symptom of dysgraphia, or it could be an indication of a vision issue, or it could be an indication of a physical fine motor challenge, or it could simply be perfectionism or a child who likes to work slowly and carefully. Unless you see some type of challenge with your dd and her schoolwork related to those, I don't think I'd worry about the coding score - I think that it's not unusual to see it lower in HG+ kids, and most of us 2e parents here who have children with discrepancies in processing speed that relate to their challenges have much lower coding scores.

Is it a hand writing problem, a writing / summarizing problem or both?

Definitely hothouse handwriting if that has any part, we made massive gains in a year by doing 10 mins a day (my DD has a physical handwriting problem that will never go away but still made huge progress). Writing is proving somewhat trickier. Her use of paragraphing, spelling, grammar, etc are well beyond grade but her pieces are still quite simple and short. She struggles enormously to plan (think of?) what to write, reducing the load on her rain from handwriting now being easier has really made it easier to make progress with actual writing.

My DS has a similar spread of scores, but with larger gaps. His non-verbal score similar but I don't know if there were any extended norms used. He got an 18 and 19 but only a 13 on block design. The psych explained the poorer score on block design because of pretty severe fine motor issues. He diagnosed him with developmental coordination disorder. He scored below the first percentile on a timed pegboard test, which tests motor coordination. His coding score on the WISC IV was also a 10 (and it was his lowest score).
Psych said that his handwriting looks reasonable because he is using his strong visual spatial ability to compensate. But it's something he struggles with and I have him in occupational therapy. Does your DD struggle with the physical act of writing or is it more getting ideas down? If the former, consider an OT assessment.
I do think it's ridiculous the teacher is putting her in a lower reading group because her writing is not up to par. The two should be treated separately. My DS's reading ability is probably 4 grade levels above his writing ability and it would enrage me if he was forced to read preschool stuff because of it!

Agree with polarbear.

I'll also add, here, that this has ALWAYS been an issue for DD, right from the start.

You can hothouse writing skills, but it's mostly ineffective w.r.t. changing things a lot until they have the executive functions developed to make use of what you're trying to show them (organizing, etc.)

If the gap is only a year or two, I'd leave it alone. For now.

That may shift rapidly once she is 9-12 yo, by the way-- and at that point, I'd PUSH for higher literacy instruction.

In our case, this has been one of the biggest bummers of public schooling; integrated language arts curriculum... low level reading, and writing tied with shackles to that reading level. {sigh}


Our answer has been to let school be what it is, and to basically afterschool reading and literature as a thing all its own. Any gap of more than about 2y is really hard to manage using an integrated language arts approach.

DD's gap has been as much as 6 or more years. Just not feasible, really, to ask a child who can't yet adequately construct a paragraph with a meaningful topic sentence to "write" about reading when that reading is... er... Dickens or Shakespeare or something. KWIM? I mean, you can hothouse the skills, but you just aren't going to make up for a gap like that, and it feels punitive to the student to have to work THAT hard, when they don't get any of the "good stuff" in their area of strength. {which, I suppose, is also a way of saying that kids with a great deal of asynchrony probably are not well-served by such curriculum integrations in the first place}

With those sort of visual talents, you might look into visual planning tools for putting thoughts together; like mindmapping E.g. http://www.mindmapping.com/

I think there are a lot things that can be bridged with direct metacognitive training. I think more than half of regular pedagogy is about accidentally teaching metacognitive skills through slow grinding accumulation of experience. When your kid can handle the shortcut, take it.

We have a similar problem here-- summarizing and writing are a challenge-- but compounded by the fact that all of the district's chosen reading comprehension tests are summarizing tests... which means DS7 stays well disguised as an expert reader. I don't think they really grasp what he can do, because they're not measuring it.

DeeDee

I like this idea, thank you for sharing!

I'm not really sure what the problem is. Her writing (technique/formation) is poor, will mix capital and lowercase, makes her letters in odd ways, etc...

When she has a homework assignment that involves reading an article and writing about it/summarizing she does pretty well. For homework a few weeks ago they had to read an article (http://www.timeforkids.com/news/history-labor-day/12426) about Labor Day and write a few sentences summarizing what Labor Day is/why we have it. This is what she wrote:

"Labor Day is a last summer break day to relax. Men and women and small children were forced to work even if they were sick. They were paid very little and tired of long hours and very dangerous conditions. Labor Day is not just a day off. It represents a very important victory. The holiday is a celebration of the social and economic workers."

She wrote the bare minimum, whereas many of her classmates will write pages and pages.

Another assignment last week she had to write about her favorite season:

"My favorite season is winter because you can dive into snow like you dive into the pool. It is in December, January, February, and March. I like to ski with my American Girl Doll. I like to eat the snow and sled. Sometimes there are snow storms that can be really horrible. I like the winter since you can have popsicles whenever you want because the popsicles are the snow."

It took a lot of convincing to write this even. I'm trying to get her to make her sentences longer using conjunctions and not use "it" over and over. I don't know what is considered age appropriate, let alone gifted level work. It just seems ho-hum imo, especially considering the arguing, whining, and effort it takes to get her to do this.

When my DS was in 1st grade, he was in 3rd grade for reading. He had teachers who were kind enough to scribe for him when he could not finish the written work or who would ask him for a summary orally. He's never had any trouble summarizing but struggles writing stuff out by hand.