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    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    I think a gentle reminder to always respect others' beliefs (even if they seem ridiculous to her or are different than what she has been taught at home) is in order. Be it religious beliefs, Santa Claus, or whatever. If another kid asks her if she believes in fairies, or Santa Claus, she can say no. But there is really no reason for her to bring the topic up, or to elaborate on her own beliefs or get into an argument about it. The same social norms apply to adults. Unless I know someone well and they are a good friend, I'm not even going to bring up the topic of religion, for instance.
    Agree except for the first sentence. "Respect others' beliefs" is one of those instructions which is often given but which, when you come to think of it, is either highly misleading or very dangerous depending on what you think it's supposed to mean. Therefore I wouldn't use that phrase approvingly to (anyone, but especially) a child. Instead, I'd encourage the same behaviour that blackcat lists under the heading of "be aware that these are topics where some adults like to tell lies to children for reasons that seem good to them, and people may get upset if you try to tell the children the truth". Much easier for your child to understand concretely, and more honest IMHO.

    Moomin, I'm just as shocked as your daughter that the lunchroom assistant lied like that. I hope a teacher would have been more adroit at avoiding the lie direct! You might consider making that distinction to your DD, between teachers who are trained to teach children and can be trusted not to lie (though they might avoid answering a question!) and the other people who help look after the children.


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    "Respect Others Beliefs" means that you don't tell other people that they are wrong or act like they are stupid, even if you strongly disagree. There are situations where debate may be appropriate but 5 year old kids don't know how to debate respectfully and not make the other person feel bad or hostile. Even adults have enough problems with this. So my advice to my kid would be to just keep their mouth shut and let the other kid believe what they want about Santa or fairies or God or Buddha, or whatever. If religion ever enters the conversation and the OP's child tells another child they are "wrong" for X,Y,and Z reasons, I can guarantee all hell is going to break lose, with the child probably being alienated and other parents being very angry. It's bad enough just with the tooth fairy or Santa.

    Last edited by blackcat; 09/12/13 11:00 AM.
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    Originally Posted by moomin
    Then a lunch room attendant (who also happened to be one of the other girls' grandmother) came over and asked what the problem was. She could see that the entire group was distressed, and that DD was crying. She wanted to help.

    The girls explained the topic in dispute...

    ... so the lunch room attendant felt the need to assist.

    Her response, "Of course fairies are real! Everybody knows that. I've seen lots of fairies."

    That's beyond the pale. You should insist on an apology and a retraction.

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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    "Respect Others Beliefs" means that you don't tell other people that they are wrong or act like they are stupid, even if you strongly disagree. There are situations where debate may be appropriate but 5 year old kids don't know how to debate respectfully and not make the other person feel bad or hostile. Even adults have enough problems with this. So my advice to my kid would be to just keep their mouth shut and let the other kid believe what they want about Santa or fairies or God or Buddha, or whatever. If religion ever enters the conversation and the OP's child tells another child they are "wrong" for X,Y,and Z reasons, I can guarantee all hell is going to break lose, with the child probably being alienated and other parents being very angry. It's bad enough just with the tooth fairy or Santa.

    The thing is, Santa really isn't real. I mean the whole story is indeed a fraud as is the tooth fairy and everyone does find this out sooner or later. That isn't the same as a religious belief - santa and tooth fairies are indeed provable fraud. My DS makes this distinction easily and I think it is indeed an important one.

    Last edited by Irena; 09/12/13 11:58 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Irena
    The thing is Santa really isn't real. I mean the whole story is indeed a fraud as is the tooth fairy and everyone does find this out sooner or later. That isn't the same as a religious belief - santa and tooth fairies are indeed provable fraud. My DS makes this distinction easily and I think it is indeed an important one.

    There are a great many things that are provably not real, like [insert favorite conspiracy theory here], but people believe in fervently anyway, and the point is that arguing with such people is, at best, a waste of time, at worst, an invitation to violence. Learning to choose your battles in these situations is an important life skill.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by Irena
    The thing is Santa really isn't real. I mean the whole story is indeed a fraud as is the tooth fairy and everyone does find this out sooner or later. That isn't the same as a religious belief - santa and tooth fairies are indeed provable fraud. My DS makes this distinction easily and I think it is indeed an important one.

    There are a great many things that are provably not real, like [insert favorite conspiracy theory here], but people believe in fervently anyway, and the point is that arguing with such people is, at best, a waste of time, at worst, an invitation to violence. Learning to choose your battles in these situations is an important life skill.

    No doubt ... my issue is that the Santa story and the Tooth Fairy (and Easter bunny) are quite simply not the same as "religious beliefs" and beliefs about the spiritual world and afterlife. I am just seconding the suggestion of
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    "encouraging the same behaviour that blackcat lists under the heading of "be aware that these are topics where some adults like to tell lies to children for reasons that seem good to them, and people may get upset if you try to tell the children the truth". Much easier for your child to understand concretely, and more honest IMHO."
    I simply do not think saying belief in such stories are or the equivalent of religious beliefs.

    Last edited by Irena; 09/12/13 12:13 PM.
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    I think there is some ignorance here. Some people do believe in fairies, in the paranoramal, in the extraterrestrial and I think that if you have any religious belief, you should negate another. There are plenty of people that practice wiccan. For them the whole Celtic, Merlin, thing is very real. And Santa is about giving. Introducing the concept to children. Just like there are diet restrictions in religion because the simple will take better care by eating better if it against the religion than because it is good for them. Though when first instituted the originators never conceived of kosher potato chips or KitKat. And the tooth fairy, how different is that from so many religious rituals of growing up? We did the first communion with DD, not because I believe it is Christ's body, but it is our cultural history for both her father and me.

    So whether it is fairies, ghosts, or aliens, there should be respect. It could be someone's religion.

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    Yes, I have a friend who does indeed believe in fairies. I do not challenge such beliefs ... She certainly, however, doesn't believe in the tooth fairy ( I mean, do we really have to debate that such a story is a lie?) I just think the distinction is important and should not be overlooked... jmo

    Last edited by Irena; 09/12/13 12:16 PM.
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    There is a difference between religious beliefs and tales of Santa Claus. But not necessarily to kids. The parents want them to believe in Santa, much like they want them to believe in Jesus (or reincarnation, or whatever belief). So with kids, I'd just treat it all the same. Respect the other parents' right to teach their kids to believe in fairy tales, and the kids' right to believe it, even though they are obviously folk tales.

    Whether parents should "lie" about these things like the tooth fairy or Santa is another debate, but ultimately it's their parenting choice and it should be respected by other parents/kids.

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    I'm curious how others think the lunchroom attendant should have handled it. I think she was in a tough spot. I mean, "I've seen them" was a bit much.

    My DD knows that Santa etc do not exist, but we have definitely talked to her about not talking to other kids about this. I do think this falls into "do not argue with people about their beliefs" category, and in fact is good training for the whole religion minefield.

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