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    Joined: Apr 2011
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    Tallulah - it's fine if EVERYONE gets a new cohort each year, it's normal then. In our case we are talking about small schools (no more than 2 classes, with a culture of keeping kids somewhat together as well, classes do get mixed up, but not that much, and also most kids feed from the same preschool). So in each case DD has been new/alone in a cohort who have been together for increasingly longer periods of time. This year, yr2, those kids would have mostly known each other through preschool, K & yr1. And they mums all did their getting-to-know-you in preschool/K too. It's very different to a large school where everyone is fully mixed up every year.

    In our case DD HAD friends in preschool, that she got along well with (who were no doubt gifted), she was ready for school when they were, and she was devestated to be left behind. If she could have just gone with them she would have been in the same classes, and would not have needed an immediate skip, the whole rigmarole she's gone through would have been sidestepped by simply starting school when she was ready, with her self selected friends... Yes she'd probably still be looking at a second skip later (as she is now) but her last 2-3 years could have run a lot smoother for her.

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    Originally Posted by Tallulah
    [quote=MumOfThree]I thought the evidence supported early entry as a sound option?

    Same way you prepare any child for adulthood. Teach them to be kind and good, help them earn how to make good choices, gather information, make decisions, communicate with experts.


    I want my child to be a good person. But I was talking about the ability to have and support a family. This is a reality in today's world. When I left school, I went out and worked, supported myself and was able to buy a home within 5 years. Actually I bought 2 homes, but I worked on Wall St. My brother bought a home within a few years of working. Most of my friends were similar in their ability whatever profession they chose. How many people coming out of school find themselves in similar circumstances. I have one nephew that bought a house when he got married, because they used the wedding money and made their own wine and cupcakes, in lieu of wedding cake. The reception was fun despite inability to drink the wine. The cupcakes were pretty bad too. But they bought a house.
    My other nephew, in mid 30s, has a nice job, based on his abilities, non-gifted. He has benefits but it would be hard to buy a house. Luckily his father is a surgeon and helps him get a new car, and he has a small trust fund so will be able to buy a house. I am sure most of the people on this site did not have parents that had trust funds to buy their homes. They all had jobs that provided enough.

    My point is that I understand the perspective of parents that feel the need to red shirt, just as I feel the need to accelerate my kid. I am trying to provide every advantage for her based on her needs. So that she has options to live the life she wants to live.

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    My point is that I understand the perspective of parents that feel the need to red shirt, just as I feel the need to accelerate my kid. I am trying to provide every advantage for her based on her needs. So that she has options to live the life she wants to live.


    Where I am from the lower SES are not redshirting nor can they afford to do so. It's the same families that will have trust funds for their children to buy a house that are redshirting around me. They are complaining endlessly about their children not getting into GT or being boastful about it when they do. I see many of them as hostile towards the parents like myself with truly gifted children. They will share their child's score and if I turned around to share my child's score they are annoyed by it. They seem to need for their children to be #1 all the time. The opposite of what I have been trying to find - a place where my kids have to work hard to achieve. My children represent what they are trying to make their child. They are under the illusion that raising gifted children is a cake walk. They really seem to think I have a secret I am not sharing with them. My kids got basic play preschool and off to school they went. I wasn't teaching and hot housing or in the case of these families paying for a tutor before kindergarten to do it.

    It's the overall negativity, whining, and attitude that grosses me out. I have a friend that redshirted her child. The child had significant health issues and they wanted more time to sort them out before school. Personally, I am not against it as whole. The folks that grate my nerves are people that would likely grate them either way. I don't think they are as whole doing their children a favor. The research I have seen it doesn't look good for these kids in the end.

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    I agree, Jtooit. That's what we see, as well. The parents who are low SES (and could use any "advantage" thus conferred, theoretically) are the kids going into full-day kindergarten as early as the school will allow... because they are scrambling to cobble together adequate childcare that they can afford. frown

    The ones redshirting are MOSTLY doing it because they want their kids to "out-compete" the other children. These are 5 to 7 year old CHILDREN, and they have parents who want them to "crush the competition" somehow... That. is. just. sick.

    My children represent what they are trying to make their child.

    Yes-- though they don't really understand what it is they are wanting. Not really.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    I understand your perspective and yes, it is annoying that they resent the fact that their child isn't gifted. But I am too lucky with my kid that I will not fault them. I do not know what I would do in their place.
    And I did not mean from a SES that they come from. I am talking about the average IQ scale that they come from. What they could achieve isn't an option for their kid. And you really don't know how much they have to give their kids as many people are living just within their means.
    I just wanted to add the perspective that I am glad I do not have to redshirt but I do not know what I would do if I were them.

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    I don't either-- it would be awful to be in that position in a place where it was normative the way it is here.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    I'm not sure all the brew-ha-ha over this is warranted - it seems a bit silly. My child is practically red-shirted as he misses the cut-off by 3 days. So, basically, he usually turns a year older on the first day of school. So, for example, he turned 7 on the first day of 1st grade. But this a district that is kind-of big on it - they STRONGLY encourage anyone with a child born July or August (I've even heard as early as May and June) to wait a year. They really push it on the parents saying you can always skip but you can't go back (in reality I don't see any skipping though - at least not yet). So it's not uncommon. Anyway, they kind-of make the parents feel like their red-shirted kid will have an edge. And maybe in some ways; but, the reality is it just doesn't pan out that way. Maybe with sports? Not sure b/c I do not have an athletic kid but so far the sports are all done by age so it doesn't seem to matter. Also, the testing (at least things like the WJ, and OLSAT, etc are all compared by age not grade. The olsat is even broken down by three month increments. An acquaintance of mine made a bit of deal about my kid being old for the grade - her daughter was born in May, mine in September but her daughter would be in the next grade up .... She seemed a bit resentful but I don't see what I could have done - there still is an age gap of 4 months... My second son is born in the spring and I am not all resentful that any of his peers born in the fall will have some sort of advantage because they will be a year behind. I mean the cut-off has to fall somewhere! Her kid was born in the spring and mine in the fall. I also feel that it really hasn't conveyed any big advantages. My kid is 2e and is still the smallest boy in the grade even though he is a year older (and that REALLY causes some problems - these kids are soooo big!) And most kids turn the same age within the next 3 months or so anyway. It actually seems to cause problems b/c my kid is in-between and when he does well or is deemed "gifted" then it's because he is older (at least in the eyes of people like the friend of mine who came off annoyed about it) - well, older doesn't matter on the WISC IV or on the OLSAT or even on the achievement tests because they are all normed by age. So, I have come to realize it's not really all that to be worked up over. I actually have come to feel that my kid's birthday causes more problems than advantages. If he were born squarely in his grade I think things would be easier in many ways. If your child is truly gifted, I just don't see a red-shirted kid affecting your kid at all. People here do buck the system and still seem to make the decision based on what is really best for their child and that is totally fine with me. For those parents that think they are really getting a BIG advantage somehow I think they may be a bit disappointed. I guess what I am trying to say is that ultimately it doesn't make the big difference people say it does. But that's just my experience. I don't resent people holding their kid back anymore than I resent people grade skipping their kids... mostly, involved and caring parents know their child and his or her struggles - they see how easier or hard things are, etc... We're all just doing our best to make sure our children have positive educational experiences and healthy self-esteems.

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    Also, I just want to add that yes some parents can be a bit competitive here and there and about certain things (and all of see our child is a certain light) but at the end of day I don't think I have ever seen the kind of extreme competition Howler Karma is talking about... so, maybe if that were the case around here I'd be more resentful but I really think most parents just love and want their kids to have positive fulfilling experiences and the kind of extremism Howler sees is a bit of an anomaly but I could be naïve, I guess.

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Originally Posted by Tallulah
    [quote=MumOfThree]I thought the evidence supported early entry as a sound option?

    Same way you prepare any child for adulthood. Teach them to be kind and good, help them earn how to make good choices, gather information, make decisions, communicate with experts.


    I want my child to be a good person. But I was talking about the ability to have and support a family. This is a reality in today's world. When I left school, I went out and worked, supported myself and was able to buy a home within 5 years. Actually I bought 2 homes, but I worked on Wall St. My brother bought a home within a few years of working. Most of my friends were similar in their ability whatever profession they chose. How many people coming out of school find themselves in similar circumstances. I have one nephew that bought a house when he got married, because they used the wedding money and made their own wine and cupcakes, in lieu of wedding cake. The reception was fun despite inability to drink the wine. The cupcakes were pretty bad too. But they bought a house.
    My other nephew, in mid 30s, has a nice job, based on his abilities, non-gifted. He has benefits but it would be hard to buy a house. Luckily his father is a surgeon and helps him get a new car, and he has a small trust fund so will be able to buy a house. I am sure most of the people on this site did not have parents that had trust funds to buy their homes. They all had jobs that provided enough.

    My point is that I understand the perspective of parents that feel the need to red shirt, just as I feel the need to accelerate my kid. I am trying to provide every advantage for her based on her needs. So that she has options to live the life she wants to live.

    Is IQ related to income where you live? Where we've lived and among the people we know it isn't at all. In fact, a kid dropping out of school to do a plumbing or cabinetmaking apprenticeship is more likely to own a home early than one sticking at school for another decade. And that advantage never goes away, because they've rented out that first house and bought another and rented that and are onto a 3 bed SFH by then, with all the passive income and equity that provides, while the smarty pants highly educated ones are left trying to buy a house that will fit a couple of kids with no equity and barely any downpayment.

    Look at investment backers compare to college professors. The bankers aren't as intelligent, but earn way way more. Or stockbrokers vs doctors.

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    Don't know where you live but one, it is really hard to get trade apprenticeships these days and dropping out of school counts against you. Cabinetmaking? I grew up in an petrochemical town and familiar with trades and unions and things have really changed. And it helps now to go to a Community College program and get an associates degree in automechanics. The computer diagnostics require training than just having a wrench and getting under your car. And it is very competitive to get into these jobs. But the hourly wage isn't as competitive as you think now. And yes, if someone is willing to buy a home in a neighborhood where they can fix it up, rent out some rooms to boarders, deal with the hassles, they can do that. Anyone can do that. But you have to live under the circumstances.

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