Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy the age of vegetarianism

Cricket2, do you disagree that the consumption of food in a diet typical of most veg*ns results in animal deaths? Am I not supposed to point that out for some reason? HK was discussing the lines of reasoning that may or may not lead to a vegetarian diet, and I commented on the complexities associated with them. I did that specifically in this thread, as it seemed to be relevant information for any non-veg*ns who may have children contemplating a meat free diet. It's not a black and white issue.

The only snarky remark I made was in response to what you posted here:


The point of my post was to question the implications of your post:
1) Negativity towards veg*ns is generally preemptive rather than reactionary.
2) Negativity towards veg*ns is generally a result of a misunderstanding on the part of non-veg*ns.
3) That you are privy to the thoughts of people you accuse of being preemptively nasty.

The first 2 implications seem biased to me, and the last seems unlikely. My response was written to be equally biased and presumptive in order to balance your statements and highlight the issues with your post so that you might confront them. Now I am curious if anyone was able to recognize my intent.

Snarfle?

I'm afraid if I laugh I will offend someone. I mean to address the consumption of food in a diet typical of veg*ns: the things veg*ns usually consume.

Vegetarian Times actually had an article about 20 yrs ago about exactly that: it is impossible to be a perfect vegan (I.e. live in such a way as to avoid all items that might cause animal suffering or death). That doesn't mean that I shouldn't try. No, I don't deny that vegans eat bread that came from grains that may have caused the death of mice in its harvest.

However, your posts have been analogous to me to something like this: it is ridiculous to bike to work and drive a hybrid because you care about the environment because hippies like you are still responsible for global warming. You are a hypocrite because you still have oil on your hands. To imply that what you are doing is any better on the environment than someone who drives an SUV is disingenuous or ignorant.

For the record, I am not making statements on the types of vehicles people drive nor any of their other habits related to global warming. I am just making an analogy here. I don't take terrible kindly to being called a hypocrite which is essentially what at least two of your posts have done. I do see a difference in kind not just degree because there is a difference in approach and intent. It is the same as the difference between the person who kills and eats the stray cats in the neighborhood, to use HK's earlier comments, and the person who accidentally runs over a cat with his car. To claim that they are in essence doing the same thing with one simply killing to a lesser degree is false IMHO. Intent and accident are not the same.

I do apologize that my earlier comment about my assumption as to the reason for nastiness toward vegans came across as judgemental and apparently prompted your post that I found quite offensive. I said that for two reasons: 1) I truly do not preach to people and people only know I am vegan if there is some reason for them to know such as a joint meal. I live with and am married to an omnivore without judging him. I have, none the less, come across people who, once they find out that I am vegan, make all kinds of unfounded and judgemental assumptions about me. They have come across as defensive more than anything to me and I've very much gotten the impression in those instances that they are judging me b/c they think that I am going to judge them. And 2) I am trying to assume the best. I'd rather think that someone is being nasty due to defensiveness than innate jerkiness.

As opposed to riffing further along Swiftian lines?

(Sorry-- I did laugh. But only a little.)

I don't think you're a hypocrite. I never meant to imply that veg*ns are necessarily hypocrites (and reading my posts, I don't think I implied any such thing). I meant only to address black and white reasoning on the issue, which isn't suitable for the reasons mentioned. I feel I have always acknowledged that there is a very real difference of degree of animal deaths that result from different diets. I applaud you for you consistency, determination, and non-judgemental attitude.

When my son was three I remember him crying on our deck and asking me how he could love a spider and a fly. There was a fly trapped in a web and he didn't know if he should release it or let it be. I didn't have an answer and I remember hugging my little boy with a big heart while he cried sobbing "It isn't fair. It just isn't fair"

Two years later, his school had a visit from an entomologist. Part of the presentation included letting the kids feed a scorpion. My son at five is still the type to get upset if another kid crushes a snail on the sidewalk. I thought holding an insect and then tossing it in with a predator and watching it die would bother him. Apparently he thought it was fascinating and was happy to participate.

I don't know if he has really become less humane or more realistic in the past two years but it is interesting to watch his beliefs on these issues develop.

A note on the interpretation of judgementalism...
In logic, the argument form modus tollens goes:
If P then Q
Not Q
Therefore not P

If someone presents something as:
I am a clean person, therefore I wash my hands 37 times a day.
Then the inference is someone who does not wash their hands at least 37 times a day is not a clean person.

Typically, that isn't the intent of the statement (though sometimes it is.) Whereas the intent may more often be to say:
I try to be a clean person, amongst the things I do is wash my hands frequently, probably 37 times a da.

Beware the accidental inference, I imagine more arguments have been had, wars fought, and episodes of Friends written based on such.

At 2.5 my daughter said she wouldn't eat Thanksgiving turkey because "the mommy turkey would be sad". We can barely get any animal products into her. Chicken? No way! Beef? nope. Fish? An occasional piece of battered cod, which she says is not fish because it's bread and brown; nothing else. Sometimes pieces of turkey meatball because she doesn't really know what it is, but now at 3y4m I think she's starting to because it's getting harder and harder to get her to eat it.

And yesterday she cried that I killed a fly, even though she was terrified of it and screaming about it being in the house.

ha - well, as an update, the vegetarianism is totally sticking - we really eat very little meat to begin with, but... DD5 totally rejected Butter Chicken last night, which is probably the biggest temptation she'd ever have. Aloo Gobi is officially the new favourite, it seems!

also, as of today, she's wanting to give up riding in the car because of the potential for Unintentional Bug Squish... so Madison189... i can totally relate!