Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy the age of vegetarianism

No, DAD22, I think it comes from being a sociopath who can not comprehend why someone does not like the idea of killing another being so one can eat flesh. I think some people don't like to be made to feel like an animal who has no choice but to consume meat, when others are showing that it is possible.

Yeah... but... actually?

Not possible for everyone. Is my family "bad" because we cannot be vegan? And really, I do mean cannot, due to a confluence of medical reasons. If you cannot eat (or have in your house) nuts, most legumes, or a majority of readily available seeds... and you MUST eat a diet moderate-to-high in fats and protein, that is limiting to the point of making veganism a non-viable option. Remove eggs and milk from the equation and vegetarianism also begins to look impossible from a practical standpoint.

So non-vegans are "sociopaths?"

Wow. It is that kind of moral absolutism that DAD22 was referring to, incidentally.

Not everyone shares that belief system (that all living creatures are of equal "worth" in human terms). I also refuse to accept that there is a "right/wrong" here that applies equally to all human beings. If that makes me evil, I guess-- so be it. But my daughter is one of the most empathetic and kind people I've ever known... and she would suffer tremendous health consequences if she could not eat meat and other animal products.

Biologically, we are animals. I'm not sure why anyone finds that an objectionable stance. The better question, IMO, is why it is unacceptable to eat other people, but IS apparently okay to eat... well, other mammals. Biology is a bit ambivalent about that, and so are (some) cultural norms. But most humans are clear that the one thing is wrong, and the other is mostly not completely "wrong" in a moral sense.

As I said-- it's not black and white, as much as anyone would like for it to be.

We're all animals. Viewing human beings as more "special" than any other animals is also fraught with troubling questions once one examines what we mean by that statement. Some animals clearly possess many of the things that we regard as "human" when one looks at the evidence. There is evidence of tool-making, empathy, culture, and language. I think, honestly, that this is probably a better argument for vegetarianism than "how can you kill another living thing??"

But it is a biologically-based argument, not a moral one.

We do eat other people, it's just generally not done outside of starvation/war conditions.

There's a reason that there is a term "long pig".

Did I write that all non-vegans are sociopaths? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I agree as to why people can't eat people, but they can other animals (and, please, I know humans are animals, too). If an animal could scream and beg to not be murdered, then we might feel differently; but people to tend to treat those who can't speak up for themselves cruelly, sometimes.

I am the same way - I think of myself as a natural born heretic - I question everything and everyone - including myself LOL all of the time.

I have always refused to be bullied and cajoled into blindly adopting the current orthodoxy and have always been inspired by the reply to the Inquisition allegedly given by Galileo along the lines of:-

'I refuse to believe that the very God who endowed me with a mind did not expect me to use it'

For this reason, while I am 100% liberal in terms of equality of opportunity I am adamantly opposed to the enforced equality of outcomes that the current liberal orthodoxy demands.

As I posted earlier, veg*ns kill animals so they can eat plants. Small mammals are killed when harvesting combines run across a field. Insects (a type of animal) are killed by pesticides. You can attempt to minimize the massive amounts of animal deaths required to sustain you, but unless you're farming your own land with special animal-safe techniques, you're responsible for a lot of death. To imply that there is a difference of kind rather than a difference of degree between most veg*ans and most meat eaters is either disingenuous or ignorant.

Honestly, how ridiculous.

While I respect everyone's right to partake of whatever food sources they choose, on purely logical grounds, I am with DAD22.

That doesn't even mention the Amazonian clearings for soybeans or the environmentally catastrophic effects of large scale monocultural arable factory farming.

I think that everyone has a right to weigh up all the facts and make their own choices but I utterly reject the notion that vegans are somehow morally superior or being vegan means that one is automatically more intelligent than everyone else.

I think it would be necessary for someone to have first proposed that notion in order for your rejection to be relevant to the discussion. It seems to me that the opposite has been stated and agreed to, by people on different ends of the omnivore/herbivore continuum.

I'm on my phone so please forgive any typos or shortness. I am so sad to see this thread going in this direction, though, and have never claimed moral superiority nor greater intelligence because I am vegan. I did note studies which linked higher IQ with greater likelihood of becoming vegetarian or atheist, one of which I am and one of which I am not. I suspect that link is there b/c, as others have noted, gifties are more likely to question everything and not simply accept on faith. However, diet or religion not being the thing that you choose to change drastically in one specific direction in no way indicates less intellect.

I will say that DAD22's posts, albeit better after the last one that was edited, are somewhat offensive to veg*ns as they imply not only that we are proselytizing and arrogant but also that our logic and morals are in error and foolish. As I've said over again here, I know that there is no way to be a perfect vegan. I am also not judging those who are not vegan. I love and respect greatly the morality of my dh who is not veg*n. He is one of the most ethical people I know. He is also atheist so I reject the idea that morals must stem from religion as much as I reject the notion that omnivores are amoral.

In regard to mice and insect and rainforests and all of that which is being raised, it is merely a way to say that veg*ns are stupid and not living by the morals we claim IMHO. It is rude and baiting. I'm sorry to be so strong there but after nearly 25 yrs as a vegan, I am tired of having to defend my beliefs as much as I imagine a Christian would be offended if this thread had taken the turn of attacking his/her beliefs as foolish and him/her of not living by the beliefs proclaimed. I do the absolute best I can to minimize the death and suffering brought about on my behalf. I buy locally grown and organic food as much as I can (minimizing my impact on the rainforests, which are incidentally clear cut to graze cattle and 70% of the soybeans grown in the former rainforests are used for animal feed). I grow and can veggies.

This really can't and shouldn't be about who has the moral high ground here. We could argue all day about how you are destroying the rainforest by eating animals that were fed soymeal from the rainforest and I am a hypocrite for eating grains that led to the deaths of field mice during harvest. Is that what anyone wants - to cut other people down to defend their own choices?

I've been on the side of being preached to. We live in an area where our religious beliefs are hugely in the minority. I so clearly recall being approached by a little girl when dd14 was in kindergarten who walked up to me after school and said, "Mrs. ___, do you know that [dd] is going to hell because she doesn't have Jesus in her heart?" I recall kids telling dd that God wanted her to eat meat and she was going to get sick and die because she didn't. I recall her school responding that tolerance was not part of their character education because kids shouldn't be taught to tolerate things that they believed were morally wrong (I.e. my dd's differing religious beliefs). We have people from two specific Christian denominations coming to our door regularly to save us and tell us about bible studies, services, etc.

I may find some of these specific people challenging, but I do not choose to repond in anger to all Christians as a result or assume that they are all arrogant or holier than thou. I would respectfully request that I be given the same treatment here. Please don't bait the vegans and assume that we are all militant or foolish.