Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Elementary School Mixed feelings - playing hardball with my daughter

hi there, MegMeg!

stuff like this is so touchy, and while i don't have any real insight on the workload question - your mention of the manipulation and power-struggles sort of rang a bell!

about a year ago our daughter (then 4) suddenly started to assert her (strong) personality and WHINE FUSS FLOP (ps - love that) came into our lives. after a lot of thought, we finally realized that manipulation was her only strategy, so we decided to offer her another, more productive one - the Family Round Table.

it's not a regular event, but any family member can request a Round Table, and we book it for Sunday evening so we're not having one every 5 seconds. it's really taken the pressure off of everyone to be able to just calmly say, "uh, this sounds like a Round Table discussion - let's defer until then." it sort of bleeds out the tension of the moment, and the actual meeting becomes something everyone looks forward to because it's such a safe place to negotiate/hear everyone's expectations and concerns.

maybe something like this might help you get to the bottom of this particular issue and figure out whether it's a big thing, a small thing or nothing to worry about? it's worked really well for us on those kinds of questions...

in any case, good luck!!

Hi MegMeg - I'm pretty new here, and was hesitant to post, but I had to support you on this... I feel your pain, completely. DS8 is a fairly good self starter, but goodness me forget it if I suggest it at the wrong moment, in the wrong mood. He'd have the tantrum about the whole thing, but then go do it in the end and *be so glad*, much like you described. I also have another one who is twice as difficult. Sigh. DD6 is not as obviously gifted as DS8, but is emerging quickly (and she's the whole package - socially ahead as well as academically high on target or ahead). And she is stubborn as a mule, with emotional outbursts that you wouldn't believe (OK, maybe you do, but SO many people do not -- especially when they see her as her quiet, sweet, adorable public self!). She finally admitted to me the other day that she 'likes fighting with' me. I suggested I teach her how to debate, so she can get that 'fight' in but in a way that isn't hurtful, and she said 'no, I just like to fight with you.' At least I finally got a bit of honesty from her, but it doesn't make it better!

I too will be 'making' my kids do homework over spring break. My motives are more simply to keep us functioning - DS does not do well w/a total lack of structure (as much as he says he wants it, he just goes to pieces). I prefer to be relaxed about our "schedule" when possible, but have come to the realization that for all of our sanity I cannot. So we've got a new and improved, fully mapped out day, with times that they have to start homework and chores, etc. (Don't worry, there is PLENTY of time built into the day for free play!! We live in a lovely neighborhood with lots of same-age kids, and they - also for everyone's sanity!! - go outside and run around with their friends as much as possible!! or read, or play with Legos or whatever they feel like doing... but preferably outside to run around now that its getting warm!! :-) and it is flexible enough that we can switch things around, if a friend can't be out til later, just swap homework and chores to before play, etc.). We will be keeping up that schedule over the break for the most part, with just a lot more time for free play. I expect plenty of push back on this from both of them, but its still the right thing to do.

MegMeg, my dd9 is an extremely strong-willed child, and she routinely threw fits for the longest time trying to manipulate us (parents) into giving her her way - so I have a bit of experience parenting a child who's reacting in the way your child is. That said, I am no expert in how to deal with it! I do *love* the roundtable suggestion (as well as the Bingo card idea) and I'm going to try both of them For my dd, simply getting a little older helped, but the years she was in the midst of it all were very trying.

That said, I realize this isn't the answer you're looking for, but I would not make enrichment "homework" into a battle, and that's what it is for your dd at the moment. Your dd is a very smart little girl, and she isn't going to be any less smart if she doesn't do *any* extra work at home at this point in her life. When my kids were her age, they loved loved loved to learn - but it wasn't about Dreambox-type learning or listening to Spanish because that's what *I* wanted them to be learning. The best learning for them back then came by letting them lead the way - I followed what they were interested in, which meant things like trips to the museum, doing art at home, going to the library and letting them pick out books that they wanted read to them. And lots of just simply playing.

I think that it's a-ok for our kids to experience having to meet expectations for worksheets completed etc at school, and it's absolutely a-ok for us as parents to insist that our children complete their homework for school, but I don't see the benefit in pushing our gifted children to do enrichment academics simply for the point of doing it because they are smart. They're going to still be smart even if they watch cartoons all day long on tv. The important thing is to not discourage them from finding their own way to creativity and intellectual fulfillment.

The cool thing is - if you offer those options you've listed as simply that - options available if your dd wants to take advantage of them, and don't insist on it, you've right away saved yourself that particular set of manipulative battles from happening. Chances are your dd may come around on her own and ask to do them (that's what would happen with my strong-willed dd)... but if she doesn't, the world isn't going to end, and you can save your energy for the other areas in life where you have to get through the manipulative battles, since you can't just avoid all of them.

Hang in there! Parenting through this age isn't easy at all -

polarbear

ps - fwiw, this is a bit out there but might be something to consider - the one thing besides maturing that helped calm my dd's manipulative drama was getting her involved in gymnastics, which is a sport she loves. I think it helps both because it keeps her occupied while she's at the gym, and she can also bounce around doing her gymnastics at home and when she's doing that she's completely happily focused on it - and it tires her out. I think I've read of other parents who've found that keeping their children active helps cut down on the drama.

CAMom - love the bingo idea! Might be what we do for our vacation "homework" time :-) Somehow I missed half this thread when I originally posted!

And I should note at the end of my last post -- "its the right thing to do" I should add "for MY family". And I really don't have any doubt; I cannot let DS go to pieces, and its a good test for summer (a trial to see if we a) can keep it up and b) if it helps enough to keep him going!)

Megmeg,I fully understand. Stubborn, strong willed, intense, all describe my ds5 perfectly. And just yesterday, we went through the same battle. I said, no playing until 20 min of school work was done. 5 hours later, and much whining, he finally did it. Luckily, we home school, so he doesn't even know what spring break is. But I have been requiring 30-60 min of school daily (4 times a week) since January. I often too feel conflicted, knowing he is working about 4 grade levels ahead...but I also realize, that he has never ever had to do anything structured. While most kids his age have been in pre-school, he just played...so now is the time to gently learn that work comes first, and that he needs to do what his mom/teacher ask. I know if he doesn't learn this now, it will be harder down the road. But I too feel intense conflict when I have to push so hard. But I know I need to win more battles--he wins too many by being so good at arguing, and having tantrums. So yesterday, I knew I was in for it, but went ahead, because he promised me to do his school while we are away from home for over a month. But not every battle is worth fighting, but once you've put your foot down, you need to follow through.
I too, plan to continue schooling over summer--30-60 min a day, and while others look oddly at me for that, I just remember, that their children have already spent more time in structured situations than mine, by far. And I am just trying to keep a structured training going...An hour a day is hardly something to call infringing on free play time.

If your child needs to continue with a little structure just to keep the routine going, you are the best judge of that. I wouldn't do the battle daily, but if you have to battle though a few days, just to let them know you are the parent, fine.

Strong willed kids are a battle, and as much as they do need more autonomy.. I think they also need to be reminded that they are not always in charge...I KNOW my DS needs that reminder. 30 min a day is not too much...it is no different than the school asking to read a book over break...it can easily be worked into the it is just how we relax catagory..with a good book and a couple of brain teasers.
Good luck! And don't forget to bring the Play on once the battle is done!

That sounds tough. I do not have much experience with a strong-willed child so my advice is probably not any good.

Why do you feel you need to keep the momentum going during the summer? DD is starting kindergarten next fall and I am so looking forward to this summer for all her lazy days and relaxation. And, DD is currently in a play-based preschool part-time. So, it is not like she needs the break. I am not a homeschooler. But, that does not mean I am not fostering learning at home. I keep a calm house free of TV and video games and full of books and creative play. And, I am always surprised by how creative DD can get during a boring day--That's why I love summer.

One boring morning she discovered that dominoes had math problems on them. (adding up the lines.) One boring morning she used bananagrams to write our sentences. The best part? She thought to use upside down Js for question marks. One boring morning a strip of paper became a ruler to measure things which she then converted to cuisenaire units. One boring morning she just up and decided to read a book that was two levels too high for her before I woke up--She would have never done that had I asked.

I know my DD is bright. She is years advanced in reading and math. If she is happy, I don't worry about academic things. I think of that as an advantage of being ahead. I do worry about keeping that love of learning alive.

Yes, she is a beast that needs to be fed, so to speak. But, I also want to keep her hungry for more.

I totally understand your position DS1 is the same though not extremely stubborn he is a great whiner with a few tears added in for dramatic measure. What has worked for us is me backing off and cutting down TV time and Game time. When he has nothing else to do he automatically gravitates towards books or a learning activity. We also have an agreement that if he says he is bored he has to do what I suggest. It keeps us both happy.

My DD got used to doing extra "homework" everyday. I tell her it's exercise for the brain that makes her smarter, just like physical exercises that make her healthier.

Yes.

I do actually understand wanting a child to do work during spring break- but she has to have a good understanding of the why- and so does the parent. Last spring, DS8 (then 7) had an awful time maintaining a schedule at school. He would get sidetracked between works, forget to get his work signed off and have days where he didn't get his work done at all, opting instead to complain and stonewall. Over the summer, I told him he was going to practice having academic work that he got done in a timely fashion. I told him that the goal was for him to be able to complete work without distraction, whining or stonewalling. He understood the WHY of work during summer break. I put together workbooks that were interesting to him (and frankly not overly challenging) and I let him choose four extremely short assignments that could be finished in 45 minutes or less total. When he'd whine, I reminded him of the "why" and explained that his whining was showing me that he still needed to work on it. By middle of vacation he was zooming through his stuff early in the morning with the rest of the day to play. A few weeks later and I told him he'd mastered what I wanted him to master and could take the rest of summer (a few weeks) completely off.

If this is really about behavior- make it about behavior and don't worry about the subject matter much. Perhaps tell her you need her to learn to work cooperatively with you and that she's going to practice it until its mastered. Define mastery to her (a set number of days repeating the behavior) and if she masters it- let her have the rest of vacation time off.

MegMeg,

I think this is the most succinct summary of my feelings. If you risk stifling her academic appetite through coercion, which I think could be the case with most strong-willed individuals, then it's better to take a quick hiatus from structure.

As a single parent, you're also in the tough position of always being the enforcer. Perhaps more than two-parent homes, I think you may have to choose your silver bullet issues carefully. Otherwise, you risk your disciplinarian role displacing your being a happy shelter for Hanni. (I don't mean this in binary terms, but as a shift on a continuum.)