Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Now, normally you would think 93% is good...

I had a parent/math specialist, math specialist, math teacher, and principal meeting yesterday to discuss DS5's math. I had asked them to assess DS5 further, end of 1st and 2nd grade, so we could see where he actually was. For those of you who have been following along you know that they had said that they weren't going to do that. Well it turns out that they did. DS scored a 93% on the end of 1st grade and they didn't finish 2nd but he seemed to do very well with the part that they did give him.

The math specialist who had assessed him started explaining the tests,showing page after page of correct answers. She then looks at me and says "Now, normally you would think 93% was good but...". DS missed a double digit addition problem. I see what he did and how he got it wrong though I am not sure why he did that, this was a problem type that he had been able to do for quite a while in his head. Anyways, since he continued on his path of incorrect reasoning when she asked him to explain it she used that to deduce that he did not have any real semblance of math sense or understanding. The problem is that I believe he does understand, he shows me everyday, but there is no way to show them what I see. Apparently it is their view that I have taught him how to use algorithms without teaching the understanding behind them. As it was put "Well we can't stop you from working at home with him since you are his parent." The principal also challenged me to, as a parent, step back and let them do their jobs and teach DS. This was an incredibly frustrating conversation. They stayed with their opinion that I should be very happy with where DS is because they have two very talented math minds teaching the class. I could go on and on but that is the gist of the conversation. Oh, and the math specialist who is co-teaching his class decided that since DS is excited when he is challenged that he wants to be special and that she doesn't want to encourage that. He has to be a team player.

On a slightly different topic, the principal stopped me on my way out to talk about whole grade acceleration. He said that it is possible but never really done. He told me two stories of terrible failures as explanation. I told him that research shows that it is successful a large portion of the time and advanced kids NEED acceleration. He believes that DS is accelerated and should he skip he might not be able to be offered the same type of opportunities. Another dead-end conversation but I do believe that we both understand each other a little better now should I pursue it further.

Sorry for rambling so much. It is all still so jumbled up in my mind and I am trying to make sense of it all.

The math specialist is engaging in selection bias. She had a pre-formed opinion of your DS's abilities, and she has chosen to lock in on the bits of information that reinforce that opinion, and ignore the other 93% of the test that says otherwise.

Ask her if she thinks dinosaurs were hunted by humans, or if 9/11 was an inside job.

Hope you don't mind me being highly annoyed at that principal?

Wow, that post was a complete vent! I will say that it wasn't a complete waste. The math specialist offered us a subscription to Dreambox which we will take full advantage of. Also whether or not they were willing to acknowledge it during the meeting they have a much better picture of DS now, even with some misconceptions. I am now absolutely clear on what they are looking for from DS and will be helping him learn how to show them it.

No way! At least I know that I am in good company in my own annoyance. I must say that my jaw almost dropped open in shock when I heard him say that. Isn't that the opposite of most schools claim to want?

So this is just my own take on it, so take everything I say with a grain of salt! But.. fwiw.. I have quite a few friends who are teachers, and I've also been on the receiving end of similar comments from school staff while advocating for my 2e kiddos. I think there are two things that teachers want when they view parents. First, teachers really *do* want involved parents - there are so many parents that aren't involved in their children's education, and it's not just parents who are working 8 jobs or strung out on drugs etc... sometimes it's very well-educated parents who simply turn everything over to the schools or perhaps are not terribly involved in their children's lives. Teachers want to have parents who are involved, who stay in touch, who know what's going on at school, and who care enough to be sure their children do their homework etc.

Then there's the other thing that I've noticed with my friends (and with teachers we've encountered when advocating). Please know that if you're a teacher reading this, I am not saying it's a bad thing - but it can be frustrating when you're a parent. Teachers are the experts at teaching - I have no doubt about that. They are also much more knowledgeable than I am about educating large groups of children with varying needs. Sometimes teachers feel like parents are trying to tell them how to do their job when really it's just a parent who cares and is trying their best to advocate for their child.

There's also a third aspect to this that you won't encounter unless you're dealing with 2e and the IEP process later on, but in our district it's basically set up where the school expects it to become contentious... so that's another thing that can impact what's going on behind the scenes.

Anyway, I do believe teachers and principals in general really do know what they are doing and are trying their best to meet the needs of the children they teach. OTOH, you are THE expert on your particular child - that's what parents are, and that's really important to not lose sight of when advocating.

It's hard not to get frustrated with comments like these, but what I do is to just take them for what they are and laugh about it, then get your facts/etc together and gather your energy and go back for the next round of advocating.

One other thing I'll add - there are different ways math is taught in school - apparently a lot of different ways. Our dd10 is enrolled in Kumon after school because she ran into a brick wall with math (she is much more into LA) and fell behind. Her school is very supportive of Kumon and other outside-of-school tutoring or enrichment or whatever. They also offer differentiated math. She's getting help at school. She was learning how to do long division at school and Kumon at the same time. She was also melting down at home whenever she had to do school work or Kumon work that involved division. DH and I were about to jump off a cliff at all the drama and moaning... so we just sat her down one day during our holiday break, showed her how we were taught to do long division, and had her repeat it over and over again until she got it (don't worry -she's not dysgraphic and has no LDs... so we weren't torturing her in ways we shouldn't have lol!)... and she did get it - after an hour or so she understood how to do long division our way (traditional way), and was able to finish all of her work and was working along happily in Kumon through the rest of the holiday break. The day she went back to school, she did a long division problem our way and.. oh my.... her teacher was sooo not happy with us. Probably still isn't happy with us! But - she *is* a great teacher, really. She just wants the students to not get confused, and wants to teach in the linear path she's got set up to teach the curriculum in. I think sometimes we just aren't going to find a perfect fit for our kids, and we can't expect not to hear some comments like that from school staff. I'm guessing if the principal heard the conversation played back, he'd probably say he didn't mean that he didn't intend it to sound like it does.

Best wishes,

polarbear

polarbear - It might not seem like it but I do believe that the teachers have DS's best interests at heart. He, however, just doesn't fit into what they think a kindergartener should be like and they are unable to see past that. It frustrating that I don't know how to get them to see the child I know.

I will go back again but I can't tell you how difficult I find this sometimes. Actually I'm sure you know in a BTDT kind of way. This is not my personality at all and at times I am too worried about offending that I find it hard to make sure that I am understood.

I completely understand what you are saying about math. DS's school does not want to see them use any type of algorithm at this point but unfortunately that is the way I was taught and the way DH, as a mathematician, thinks. I can't see not helping my child just because my way of getting to the right answer is no longer in vogue. Hopefully we'll eventually meet in the middle somewhere.

Maybe I'm jaded, but after reading your messages, I wonder if they're focusing on what they feel like focusing on instead of what's best for your son.

Many educators I've met are clueless about mathematics and clueless about giftedness. Part of the evidence for this is the way they stick to faddish math programs and the way that they cling to the idea that if your kid hasn't been through their school's fourth grade math book, he can't possibly understand long division. More evidence: too many of them disparage approaches that are favored by mathematicians, physicists, and engineers, and fail to even consider that a kindergartner might be capable of doing second grade math. IMO, this is because they simply can't see past their preconceptions, even in the face of evidence. The kid got an A on the assessment exam? Yeah, but didn't get 100%; therefore he failed. And if he'd got 100%, he didn't use our method. Therefore, he doesn't really understand addition, and he failed. (Sorry Polarbear, I just can't laugh at this stuff. It's too destructive.)

Bottom line: you can't convince people who aren't interested in listening.

Yes, teachers know way more about how to deal with a heterogeneous classroom than most parents. But this doesn't give them expertise in mathematics --- yet many behave as though it does. I mean, your husband is a mathematician and they question how you and he approach math with your son? Seriously?


This I understand. It's a really tough position.

We solved the problem by embracing the suck and accepting the reality of the least-worst option. This means afterschooling and summer vacation math. My kids don't really complain about it, either. We've found that 30 minutes or so 3 or 4 times per week is enough to allow our kids to move forward at a pace that suits them. We ignore the school math, and I've even been known to complete a worksheet of basic addition while the kid does long division or fractions or whatever.

The result is a (homeschooled as of this year) 12-year-old who's excelling in Algebra 2, learning to apply basic trigonometry in physics, and who scored at CTY's award level on their placement exam when competing with kids two years older than him. It's been a lot of work with him, but it's worth it, IMO.

Good luck. Sorry you have to suffer. At least you know you aren't alone.

Yeah my mom used to do word searches and word scrambles for my vocabulary when I was in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade...my brain just couldn't deal. Now I can do that stuff with no problem. But my mom saw no educational value in it and would take my vocabulary book and do it for me while I did other homework.

I'm a teacher--and a former "gifted kid" and parent to another gifted kid or two--and despite my own abilities and my acute awareness of their needs, I still struggle with how to challenge the highly able kids in my high school English classroom. We teachers are trained to deal with heterogenous groups of kids, to design and follow curriculum, to assess based on standards--all of these things help us be better and better at meeting the needs of the kids in the middle of the bell curve. If we are trained in serving the needs of "outliers," it's for kids who have special needs. I couldn't have taken a course on gifted education in my grad school program even if I had wanted to. And, as a pre-service teacher and a parent to one teeny infant, it honestly didn't even occur to me to want that. I am coming more and more to believe, as a teacher and the parent of an "outlier,", that heterogenous public education (and who knows, maybe much private education, too) does not in most cases meet the needs of kids on either side of the bell curve.