Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Letter to school re DS and math - response!

Hi!

It's been awhile since I posted. The last time I had just had a P/T conference and the principal had gotten involved. At this point he is in a pullout GT program for about 20 mins every two weeks. It is not a very defined program, they really don't know what to do with DS5, but is more than I believe they have done in the past so I am rolling with it for now. This seems to focused on the Language Arts side of things.

The problem is math. They are just now getting around to doing anything on the math side. They tested all the Kindergarteners for end of year math and decided that they have a large group of kids who would benefit from a more challenging program. They are going to start, on Monday, a combo K/1 math class for this group. However DS5 should probably be in 2nd or 3rd grade math. I've tried to be OK with this program but I'm just not. DS never comes home excited about something they did in school except when his teacher gave him a little extra challenge in math. It is always easy for him but he is excited that he got to do anything extra.

I've thought about this and have decided that I need to see if something more can't be done. I would love any feedback you could give on the email I am thinking of sending to his teacher, the principal, the GT teacher, and the math specialist.


Hi,

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday! I know it didn't seem like two weeks to me.

I've been doing a lot of thinking since our last meeting. I am still really concerned about math. I know we discussed the combo K/1 class which is about to begin and I said that I would wait and see how that worked out. The problem is that if I wait and don't say something now I fear it will be too late later.

DS5 is excited about math. He loves working a problem. Mr. Teacher gave him some multiplication the other day and he was delighted. I think he would benefit, his attitude about school would benefit so much, by working at a higher math level. After looking at the math curriculum I believe that he would do very well on the end of year 1st grade assessment and not badly, or even well, on the 2nd grade assessment. Can we have him assessed further than the end of Kindergarten and then see what other options there may be? I really want him to come home from school excited/proud about something. If it happens to turn out that I am wrong about where he would place then at least I know that I've done everything I can for him.

I appreciate all the help that you have given me so far and look forward to continuing to work together. I am very grateful for the concern that you show towards DS5.


Can you think of something else that should be mentioned or a better way to phrase something? I am really trying to keep a good working relationship with the school.

Thanks!!!

It looks good to me.

I would add a little something there about why you would be concerned if the level of math being offered stays well below his level, long term. You've given them the upside of evaluating him further, and upgrading his math exposure if they find you're correct (kid would stay excited), so I'd also give them some downside... whatever that downside might likely be, given your son's personality. Would he be the kind of kid who might dumb down? Tune out? Act out? Since this is January, you've probably already seen how he's handling it.

Good tone overall. One thought is to include something where you are offering to help as part of the team.

I think it's a good letter and agree with Dude and Zen Scanner's points too.

You probably know this from being around here for awhile, but FWIW sometimes the easier approach is just to 'afterschool' or do outside enrichment. It shouldn't be that way, of course, but that's what worked for us...after months and months of promises about in-class acceleration. And that was at a private Montessori school, where a big part of the 'sales pitch' (especially at that school) was learning at your own pace. But I hope your approach works. Good luck!

One question: do the different grades have math at the same time of the day? Subject acceleration in math is such an easy solution that it seems like a no brainer for them to just put him in the 2nd grade class for math and then have him return to K for the rest of the day if that is feasible given the timing of math in the various grades. Of course, the assessment of his math skills that you mention should be done first.

Do you trust that they'll accurately assess your ds's math achievement and has he had any ability testing (IQ) done yet? The only problem I've ever seen with math subject acceleration seems to happen much later (around Algebra) with kids who were accelerated solely based on high achievement and whose ability doesn't lend toward them continuing on the trajectory of acceleration later down the line.

Thank you all for your responses. I incorporated your suggestions and this is what I ended up sending:

Hi,

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday! I know it didn't seem like two weeks to me.

I've been doing a lot of thinking since our last meeting. I am still really concerned about math. I know we discussed the combo K/1 class which is about to begin and I said that I would wait and see how that worked out. The problem is that if I wait and don't say something now I fear it will be too late later.

DS5 is excited about math. He loves working a problem. He loves telling us how he got the answer or why that is the correct answer. Mr. Teacher gave him some multiplication the other day and he was delighted. I think he would benefit, his attitude about school would benefit, so much by working at a higher math level. As we discussed at the last meeting, DS5 does not seem engaged in much at school, except centers.:) He is often just staring at nothing. The questions I keep asking myself is why and what can I do about it? He is obviously not a kid who can't learn or is disinterested in learning. I'm afraid the his disinterest in school will just worsen, it is definitely not getting any better, and that would be heartbreaking. After looking at the math curriculum I believe that he would do very well on the end of year 1st grade assessment and not badly, or even well, on the 2nd grade assessment. Can we have him assessed further than the end of Kindergarten and then see what other options there may be? I really want him to come home from school excited/proud about something and unfortunately he doesn't right now. If it happens to turn out that I am wrong about where he would place then at least I know that I've done everything I can for him.

I understand that I am asking for something that is not the norm. Please let me know if there is anything that I can do to help out whether it is coming into the classroom more or something else that may be needed.

I appreciate all the help that you have given me so far and look forward to continuing to work together. I am very grateful for the concern that you show towards DS5.



As for afterschooling we have resources around the house that he can access whenever he wishes. The problem is that he doesn't want to spend his time doing "work". He wants to play. He just spent 6 1/2 hours at school and I keep reminding myself he is just 5. It is really not fair to him to make him repeat school each day and it will possibly turn him off learning. We turn whatever we can into a teaching moment so he still gets a bit.

Cricket2 - I don't know what the 1st/2nd grade math schedule is. All the grades eat lunch at a different time so even if he tests as I believe he will it might not be very easy. DS5 has not had any testing, I keep debating that question, but everything points to IQ not being a problem later. I'm sure that is part of what the school is questioning.

this is the issue that I have with the enrichment at home suggestion also. We do enrichment at home with my DD7 but during the school year it's just sort of when we can fit it in and she is interested. During the summer she has been doing a more formal kind of online math curriculum and enjoying that, but during the year, like you said - she spends all day in school already! After school she has ballet, gymnastics and sometimes girl scouts, plus her homework, so there really isn't a lot of time during the week to add extra stuff in without making it seem like punishment or another item on her to-do list.

If he's passionate about math, just having the resources in the house for when the fancy strikes him works for us. DS7 uses Khan Academy, Beast Academy books (which he asked for for Christmas), random workbooks, MathDude podcasts, calculators, etc. They are just toys for him to play with when playing with math is what he wants to do.

Eibbed, I really like your letter! FWIW, I wish I could hire you to ghost-write my letters to the school

polarbear

One place where you could assess his Math ability and get a really detailed report to show to the school is ALEKS.com (but the first grade they do is 3rd grade so you would need to think that he would do pretty decent in third grade math). And they assume you are a good reader, and if he wasn't a good reader you would need to sit with him at the computer and help him read.

Thanks again everyone!

Sweetie - I will look into the ALEKS assessment tool.

Polarbear - What a nice compliment. I find writing these things so stressful! I'm working so hard to develop and maintain a good relationship with the school.

I haven't heard back from the school yet. In fact the principal hadn't read it yet this AM. It's amazing how nervous I am feeling about this. I'll let you guys know what happens.

Alright, I am now going crazy. After all the thought and worry I had about the letter referenced above I have had absolutely no reply from the school yet.

Initially I gave them the benefit of the doubt. They were figuring out how to address this issue before responding. Then it had been almost a week and I thought, well they have a teacher work day Tuesday so I should give them until then. Yesterday I finally sent a very short follow-up saying it had been a little bit so i was just checking to make sure the email had been received. Now today we had a late start due to snow and it looks like there is a possibility that school might be effected by snow tomorrow. Ugh! I'm thinking it might be next week now before they will respond.

I get anxious when checking email because I'm a little afraid to read their response. I so don't want this to turn into a battle or me giving up. At this point though any response might be better than none for my nerves. Actually I don't think I mean that. If waiting gets the best for DS I will wait.

Sorry, I just needed to vent!

"
That is exactly what I need to do and I know it. Confrontation just isn't really in my personality and I'm really not so good at being politely confrontational. I'm working on it and it seems like I am going to get lots of practice!

The original letter and follow-up was sent to DS5's teacher, the GT teacher, the math coordinator, and the principal.

DS5 is a very young 5 so I'm really hesitant to do a grade skip. However the mention of a grade skip at the last PT conference was what got the GT teacher involved. It's sad if it has to come down to that.

Haven't you heard back yet? The principal I work for has a 24-hour turnaround rule, and I usually can expect an answer within 2 days with my daughter's principal. If you're not hearing back and it's been over a week, that's a HUGE problem! Get aggressive (hard, I know... I'm as non-confrontational as they get). You pay for this education with your taxes. Your school board and the principal work for you.

Nope, nothing yet. I believe that our principal also has a 24hr response policy which I've seen some of the staff not following in the past but now he isn't following it. It's been about 2 1/2 weeks.

I honestly don't know what my next step will be. I've been thinking about it all weekend and haven't figured it out. I am so hesitant to be pushy. If we stay in this school I'll be dealing with them for the next 7yrs. That's an awfully long time for a bad relationship. I know that the real focus should be on DS and not my level of comfort but I worry about the relationship changing the way DS is treated for the worse. The sad thing is that I had been telling people how happy I was with the principal, how he really seems to want the best for DS and now this.

Any suggestions are always welcome.

So over 21/2 weeks later, and quickly approaching him in person on Weds., I got a response late last night. Here it is:


Ms. Eibbed,

I was able to meet with Ms. E our Math Support Teacher today to discuss DS5. We have agreed to do some additional assessment next week to focus on some big picture math concept areas. We will not be giving him the full first or even second grade assessment. In addition, we are fortunate to have Ms. W and Ms. C co-teaching his math class. Ms. C is a member of our math team and will provide additional information about him as a math student.

In talking with Ms. W, she continues to encourage DS5 to explain his thinking, to think in multiple ways, and to think beyond just the surface level. Our goal is to push the class to go deeper with the concepts to truly understand the foundations while being able to truly explain their thinking.

We would like to meet to review the information we collect as well as to review what we see within the first month of being in Ms. W's math class during conferences. Ms. E, math support teacher, is available on Wednesday or Thursday evening of conferences, so hopefully we can schedule a conference on either Wednesday 13th, or Thursday, Feb. 14th.

Ms. ____ our front office secretary can assist in scheduling this conference.

Thank you!

Principal



So what do you think?

I find this response very disappointing.

1. They will not test him to the level that I requested and do not sound like they have any intention of trying something new or different with him. I should feel lucky that a math team teacher comes in sometimes,I know it's not every day because I have been in the classroom, to co-teach.

2. They do plan on really discussing this with me because the meeting is to be scheduled during P/T conferences and those are just 15 min. long. It does not sound like this will be a team meeting but just the math support teacher telling me how he is fine where he is.

I just don't understand what they have against true, thorough, assessment. Why don't they want to know where DS is? This class that I'm suppose to be so thankful for is where a teacher almost fell over in shock when one of the students knew what an odd number was. How could these kids know that? It hadn't been taught yet! DS has understood odd and even for a couple of years now.

I fear that this is going to leave us in the exact same position we are in now and without any additional information to make further decisions. I wanted this assessment not only so that they would really see DS5 but so that we would have acceptable and credible, in their eyes, data to discuss what options there may be? If he were to test at a 2nd grade level and there was no way to just subject accelerate him do to schedules I would like to know that. We could then have an informed discussion about in-class differentiation or maybe even talk about what other options may be out there. If we never get appropriate assessment it will always be a parent said/school said type of situation. I want to make an informed decision about subject acceleration, grade level acceleration, school change, homeschooling, or the status-quot.

I know I am rambling now but I'm at a loss. I want DS to have an answer besides "it's too easy, I know it already" when I ask him how math class was and what he learned today!

Eibbed, I think part of what you're possibly caught up in here is that the school might not have a true end-of-1st or 2nd grade assessment that ties to their curriculum set up - our elementary tended to do assessments by units rather than have a full-on first grade/2nd grade etc assessment... and the other gotcha was that state testing (where we are) doesn't start until 3rd grade, and doesn't cover all the concepts that are actually taught. In our case there is a lot of early elementary spiraling of "thinking" and "explaining" type work in math vs more traditional easily quantifiable stuff. How's that for a confusing thought to follow lol? Sorry I'm not explaining that well.. BUT.. fwiw, I'd take Sweetie's advice - sign up for the free 2-week trial verson of Aleks and have your ds take the assessments for as many grade levels as you can. The VERY USEFUL thing about the Aleks assessments is they will give you a detailed report that ties your child's knowledge to YOUR specific state curriculum standards (for all 50 states). It's also very easy to reset a grade level so that if your ds for instance, aces the grade level X assessment, you can switch him up to grade level X+1 and have him take that assessment (just be sure to save all the reports from the grade level X before making the switch).

The one gotcha with Aleks might be starting grade level - we used Aleks for after-schooling but it was several years ago, and at the time we used it, I think it started at grade 3.... but I also think they were adding in lower grade levels, or at least that was in their plan.

If there isn't a grade level below 3 and you need that for your ds, check out IXL. At the time we were using IXL (also several years back), it didn't have the same type of reporting against state standards but they might have added that since then.

THEN - if you find an online source to provide you with the assessment against state standards, also google around on your school district's website to see if they've done any type of research/eval/etc of that same company. The reason to do this - if they've done an eval and found a company's program to be credible, you can use this as backup when you go to your meeting, take the evals you've done online at home, and fire that back at your school staff if they cast doubt on the assessments.

Last thing - our ds was denied math acceleration in early elementary (in his case due to a disability that impacts his ability to write down math facts quickly). He literally had no acceleration at school all the way through 5th grade. For him, the downside was he was extremely bored and he eventually became extremely frustrated when he saw other kids get acceleration (and rather than just become frustrated he advocated for himself and was still denied). However, we let him afterschool in Aleks, we kept the reports of what he'd learned vs state standards, and when he had an opportunity to ask for acceleration at school in 6th, those reports got it for him. He's now in 7th grade, appropriately accelerated in math and science and he's doing VERY well. I realize that's not the optimal outcome - the acceleration should have happened way back in K... but... just wanted to put that out there to let you know that for those of us who advocate like crazy in early elementary and aren't successful... it's not the end of the world. It's frustrating and beyond annoying for sure, but it's also only one step in the journey.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - one other thought that comes to mind - our school was so very into "explain your work" and "show your work" all through elementary - and that was extremely challenging for our ds... for those very simple concept problems. If you think that might be potentially happening for your ds - work is so very simple, there's essentially nothing to explain (from his point of view) you might take a few of his example worksheets and talk him through it and write down what he tells you - ie, you scribe his thought process, so you can show that as extra proof he's got the concepts down.

"In talking with Ms. W, she continues to encourage DS5 to explain his thinking, to think in multiple ways, and to think beyond just the surface level. Our goal is to push the class to go deeper with the concepts to truly understand the foundations while being able to truly explain their thinking. "

How much deeper do they expect your son to understand 2 + 2, or to explain his thinking? What are the multiple ways of understanding this? Apples and apples vs. oranges and oranges?

I would take the advice above, and after school him, since they apparently aren't too concerned about his growth. But I would also continue to push them to get data about your son's current abilities. Ask them how they can effectively teach him if they don't know his level. Also, if they don't know where he starts, how can they be assured he is making a year's growth in a year's time?

Well... I had to giggle at this (painfully!) lol... because this was such a frustration for us in early elementary with the curriculum that was in vogue in our school at the time. DS had soooo so many worksheets that asked him to show understanding - not just in one way but usually in THREE different ways... for very very very VERY simple concepts. It was enough to make me want to throw a brick through a classroom window in frustration!

The reason I came back and commented was, it reminded me of something else that might be useful to consider going into this meeting. Our school had a number of parents who weren't too pleased with the curriculum, as well as, um, plummeting state test scores.... so there were quite a few meetings at school where the school staff tried to explain to the parents why this was such a great teaching method and curriculum etc. The emphasis was always on teaching math in a way that kids who aren't naturally "mathy" could get it and apply it to the real world so it would sink in. I finally realized that what was happening was the *ADULTS* who had chosen the curriculum weren't at all "mathy" and they'd never really understood math in early elementary. SO... not that that will change how you need to approach your meeting but it might be helpful just to keep it in mind - you might know more and be more naturally adept at understanding math than the teachers at the meeting.

polarbear

I can't tell if this is public school or what but it seems to me you didn't go high enough on the totem pole. I would have sent an email with a cc to his/her superior.

It still only starts at 3rd grade, *but* it splits things up into tiny topics and many of them are things that are taught before 3rd grade, e.g. "single digit addition with carry" is one topic there. So it still might be a good idea to try it out. My DS-then-5 did this straight from "write me a sheet of sums Mummy" and there was no bump. Doesn't help you document where he is against 1st or 2nd grade standards, but if he's likely to know (or very quickly learn) a non-trivial amount of the 3rd grade material that might do!

Unfortunately I don't think two-week free trials are easy to come by; the standard one only allows three hours of use, or something, and although longer trials specific to homeschoolers come round, you would have to claim to be homeschooling. One other gotcha: if you sign up for the free trial, and then purchase a subscription, the child gets the initial assessment again. I remember this upsetting my DS-then-5, for whom the 25-30 question initial assessment was a lot of concentration, and a lot of computer use given limited fine motor skills, at that time. If there's a decent chance you might actually use it, and if $19.95 doesn't stretch the budget too much, consider signing up for a month-by-month subscription instead, if you can't find a two week trial.

Gosh--your letter could have been a transcription of conversations that I and others have had with our principal, both about math and language arts. I think that they're really anti-acceleration at this point in education, perhaps owing to the new core standards. But that whole "going deeper" comment is one I've heard many times, and I have to say, as the mom of a very bright kid and as an educator, I'm "calling bull#@$%" on it. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Sigh.

Sorry, I had to run my DD to a Dr.s appt so I'll respond to everyone now.

Polarbear - I don't know whether they actually have end of year assessments or not. I know they have one for K so I just assumed that there would be one for the other grades. What do I know? I would think that if they didn't have one they could have just said that though. I will looks into Aleks. If nothing else it would reassure me that I'm right about where DS is. I think he has a shot at doing decently on 3rd grade so we'll see. As for explaining his work it is hit or miss for DS often depending on mood. I do worry that this could end up being held against him.

syoblrig - "How much deeper do they expect your son to understand 2 + 2, or to explain his thinking? What are the multiple ways of understanding this? Apples and apples vs. oranges and oranges?" - I love this and feel this way soooooo often. They want him to show his knowledge but if they ask what 2+2 is or to group items in 10s what exactly is he suppose to give them except for the right answer?

nicoledad - it is public school and after the principal I guess the next step would be the district GT office or superintendent. I hope it doesn't have to come to that. I thought I had gone high enough!

I also don't understand the whole "deeper" thing. It is definitely a word they like to use around here. The problem is that they won't stop to listen if you try and explain that maybe your child does understand the concept and not just the trick. Lat night DS and DH were going through one of the Murderous Math books and came across this problem:

There's a positive whole number that you can add to 1,000,000 and you get an answer that's *bigger* than if you multiply it by 1,000,000.

it took DS about 2 seconds to come up with the right answer and he could explain it thoroughly or "deeply" as they might put it.

This is why I suggested having you ask him to explain his work to you at home, and you scribe his answers. You'll have a chance to get examples over a window of time, when he's actually feeling like answering - and you can use those as examples of his level of comprehension and understanding at your meeting.

We've had to advocate quite a bit from a slightly different perspective (2e), and we often found ourselves at meetings where the school staff would use one random example of something ds did in class as "proof" of his ability/level of work/etc.... those examples were all carefully selected to prop up the school's position re where to place ds. I found the same strategy worked very well for countering the school's argument, by having my own set of examples of ds' level of work

polarbear

polarbear -I'll give that a try. The GT teacher had said that scribing was OK for when he was answering questions or recording thoughts in his journal so I would think it should be OK for this.

p.s. I'm not sure what you mean by searching the district's website to see if they thought a program was credible. Do they keep a list of such things? Where would I begin?

Glad you got a response! Sorry it was such a pitiful and ridiculous one.

I don't have advice other than we have been using IXL.com as suggested above and offering prizes to complete the standards for each grade. We started with second and did 25% of that in 2wks before it just got so tedious that we moved in to third. I like the pretty charts they provide online and that it is totally standards based. He likes uncovering the prize board and all his certificates for accomplishing things.

It has also helped me find gaps of information that he needed an explanation about and helped me pin down his level better. You can easily move between all of the grade levels and it makes very clear the huge amount of overlap between grades. You can also view samples and try the modules yourself on the parent log in.

I plan to use IXL to demonstrate the level that is appropriate for him. It also should be a free to the school option (using our log in) in the class to let him work on his standards at any grade-level. If you get a problem wrong, they explain why. If nothing else works for this year, advocating to let him use IXL in class is my final plan. I also think showing he has completed thousands of problems covering the whole of the 3rd grade math standards in our state ought to get us some appropriate acceleration for next year. (They even record time spent on each section and every problem answered incorrectly and what his answer was. It's extremely detailed.) I thought it was a bargain for these purposes.

HappilyMom- I have been thinking about using Time4Learning in a similar way for Math and Language Arts- hoping this will help me advocate for next year. (Ds school using the sister computer program, Compass Learning), so I thought the format would be familiar for him. Hope the school won't just see it as hothousing.

Eibbed- So sorry you are going through this. Wish I had advice to offer. Hang in there. Btw, the wording used "deeper" multiple way to explain answer is the same things we're told. I think it's a way to say that everyone can "learn" a new way to explain something.

Din ding ding!! We are facing this problem right now with the mind numbingly stupid approach my kids school have taken to math, I am sure designed to "help" the kids that aren't naturally mathy - which serves only to confuse and annoy those that are.

Every time an educator throws out the deep thing...it is all I can do not to sing...

Deep and wide, deep and wide there's a fountain flowing deep and wide. Deep and wide, deep and wide there's a fountain flowing deep and wide.

Hmmm and wide, hmmm and wide there a fountain...(you slowly replace an additional word with "hmmm" each verse until you are singing all Hmmmm's.

It doesn't sound very promising, but I'm interested in the fact that they say "we will not be giving him the full 1st grade or *even 2nd grade* assessment..."

If they said "not be giving him the full 2nd grade, or even 1st grade..." that would indicate to me that they felt he should be working the K or 1st grade level. But "the full 1st grade or even 2nd" sounds to me like they think he is beyond both.

It may be an error of phrasing that means nothing -- that wouldn't be the first time. But it is something to think about. It's possible they think he's working beyond both levels.

To second what's been said earlier, I haven't even been able to get an actual end-of-year assessment out of our school, which is a good school for working with our DS and his accelerations, and that's up to the 6th grade level that I've been asking for most recently. It's possible they just don't have such an animal.

Can't teachers make up tests by themselves anymore? It is called curriculum based assessment.

If the teacher thinks he is up to second grade and ready for 3rd, the teacher could get the second grade text book and copy all the unit tests. Spread them out and get a copy of the grade level standards. Cross off anything that is extra in the text book unit tests that isn't something that state has as a standard and is just extra in the book. Cross of extra problems if there are several of the same type. If some skill is an early step in a later type of problem cross of that problem because if he can do the harder problem he can do the first step.

Look the test over and if it is super long as a teacher, use your best judgement to knock off a few more problems. If it is too long for one setting divided it into two parts.

Give test to Kindergartener. Give test to an average third grader that you passed from 2nd to third with no qualms. Give it to an additional 3rd grader that you think is tops in math.

Use your judgement as an educator.

I agree with Nautigal about the strange phrasing. That "won't" feel like it should be a "will"?

I would reply as suggested asking why he cannot be tested (offering the option to correct what might be a typo) and saying that you look forward to meeting with the math specialist to learn how you can all help your child work "deeper".

I am having some of the same issues with DS6, so cheering for you and your child.

Any news?