Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment DS didn't get into the G&T program...

So... I got the results a couple of weeks ago, and am not sure what to make of them!

They did the following:

CogAT, TerraNova Achievement and Renzulli-Hartman Teacher Rating Scale. These are this scores:

CogAT (they wanted >116)
Verbal - 110
Quantitative - 111
Nonverbal - 129 (qualifying score)

TerraNova Achievement (they wanted > 89%)
Reading - 87
Math - 82
(no qualifying scores - this is what kept him out of the program)

Renzulli-Hartman (they wanted >107)
Learning, Motivation, Creativity & Leadership combined score - 73.

That he obviously didn't qualify, but the test scores I turned in (NNAT, last years CogAT & the WISC) covered that section of the scoring.

Does anyone know anything about the TerraNova test? I am going to do some google research, but I'm wondering if his scores are close enough (combined with all previous achievement testing we have) to lobby he be allowed in anyway. I really want the differentiation formalized for him, like he'd get in this program. I am not overly concerned, honestly, about the special projects or the label.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm

"Grade-level or group achievement tests are criterion-referenced, so they contain questions covering just about every aspect of the curriculum at that grade level. Grade-level achievement tests are normed for no more than a single grade level, and at the youngest grades, only 1/2 a grade level (spring or fall). These tests have little or no content to determine just how far above or below grade level a student might be. Grade-level achievement tests that report grade-equivalent scores outside of the grade level being tested, really don't provide that kind of information. They can only determine if the child is at, below, or above grade level. For example, a 3rd grader gets a grade-equivalent score of grade 5.8 on a group achievement test. This does not tell us anything about how the 3rd grader might score on a 5th grade test; instead it means that, had a late 5th grader taken the same 3rd grade test, he would have scored similarly to this student.

Common grade-level achievement tests include the Terra Nova/CTBS, Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS), California Achievement (CAT), Stanford Achievement (SAT), and all state mandated grade level achievement tests such as PSSA in Pennsylvania, NJASK, GEPA, and HSPA in New Jersey, TAAS and TAKS in Texas, and others. Of these, the ITBS can be scored both as criterion-referenced and norm-referenced. The ITBS, too, gives us a clue in its name: the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. Grade-level achievement tests are only a measure of basic skills.
"

mon -

- Yes, this is the Charter school
- no, still not IEP or 504
- Yes, he's still taking Risperdone & Tenex. They should not have any significant negative effect on his academics.
- Last years scores were factored in and were a plus in his favor. They do the scoring in a slightly convoluted manner. There are 2 sections - Quantitative Data (CogAT & TerraNova) and Qualitative data (Parent nomination form & Renzulli-Hartman). To qualify for the program in 2-5th grade they need 2 indicators from the quantitive data section and one from the qualitative section. The tests I provided fulfilled the qualitative requirement. He only met one qualifier in the quantitative section (the cogat non-verbal). He needed one other qualifying cogat score, or one terranova score that qualified.

As for what the program offers, here's a list from the pdf they have on their site:

The differentiated curriculum is what I was primarily after... I can possibly still get that done outside of the G&T program, but it would be much easier with it.

Amy, I'm in a really huge hurry today so I hope this makes sense (since it's simply quick random thoughts lol!) -

FWIW, I couldn't remember your ds' WISC profile, so I took a quick peak in the archives - it looks like he has the same large discrepancy in verbal vs non-verbal on the WISC that shows up on his CogAT. I'm wondering if there isn't a chance that whatever is driving those differences in scores might somehow be impacting his achievement test results.

I don't have much experience with the Terra Nova, but fwiw both experiences were odd - go figure! My EG ds (who is grade-accelerated in math + really really good at math) scored very much lower than we would have guessed based on what he's learned in math, even with his extended time. We suspect from what we've been told by his school staff that he most likely got off-track on marking bubbles on the answer sheet (he has challenges with copying related to his disability and is supposed to be able to write his answers in the answer book). During his TN testing, on the day he took the math portion and received the oddly low score, he was given a bubble sheet by the proctor instead of being told to write his answers in the test book.

Our dd8 took the TN last year in 2nd grade and also didn't do very well - across the board. Her scores are lower than we would have guessed based on ability and class grades. In her case, I wouldn't be surprised if she raced through the test and missed doing some questions all together because she tends to do that with classwork.

My advice is to ask for copies of the complete test results from your school - get as much info as you can, think through how your ds might have been impacted when taking the tests.

Then I'd make an appeal to the people who are deciding entrance into the gifted program. I wonder if you could ask for some advice/written support from your neuropsych who did the WISC testing?

Best wishes,

polarbear

Amy, this is your son with autism?

Some thoughts:
--It is IMO totally bizarre that they are taking the WISC and last year's CogAT as "qualitative." These are quantitative, scored assessments. Like MON, I'd be looking to discuss an appeal process with whomever decides this.

--The Renzulli criteria (irritatingly) presume that gifted people all present in similar ways. They are biased toward extroverts and people with soft skills that a person with autism is unlikely to have at this age. These criteria ignore or marginalize lots of "other" kinds of giftedness. I'm not saying you should necessarily fight them on their choice of measures, but I'm saying that you shouldn't let their use of this scale affect your perception of what's going on.

--Our neuropsych reports that with remediation of autism over time, IQ scores tend to both rise and become more coherent. That is, your DS may later be better able to answer questions on some standardized tests and get into the program without a fuss, if there are later entry points.

--For our DS, participation in gifted placement was really foundational to behavior success at school. He behaved better when he was placed in a more interesting setting. I don't remember right now whether this is an issue for your DS; but for mine, the autism helped demonstrate the need for academic acceleration by making all other options unthinkable.

HTH,
DeeDee

Thanks for all the great respones! I'll try to answer everything in one big comment...

mon - I am fairly certain we can go through the process again next year. I've not found anything on their website that says its a one and done type thing. There is a parent-override process, but as you've mentioned I'm not 100% it's a good idea to push. He's made some amazing progress this last year, but he definitely still has some serious social deficits and some pragmatic language issues. The 504/IEP process seems to be going nowhere. I'm planning on trying to set up a meeting with the Principal, the special services coordinator lady (no idea what her title is) and his teachers.

polar - Yes, he's got some rather large score discrepancies going on! His ability to communicate feelings/thoughts is still very much behind the rest of his cognitive abilities, though it does seem to be getting better (from a day-to-day standpoint.)

DeeDee - I agree, their scoring system is a little bizarre... though I do appreciate the parents input can override that silly Renzulli-Hartman scale. The school in general seems very big on "leadership" so I can understand why they like that though. I feel like my son would respond like yours, in that an even better academic situation (this year is miles better than last year) would improve his behavior and mood even more. I can see, plain as day, how much the current change has impacted him. My primary concern is that the differentiation his teachers currently do is very off the record and seems to be a bit hap-hazard - even still it's working well! I just want it formalized and written down and tracked! Same with his behavior stuff!

---
I've emailed the coordinator and asked for his full set of scores for my record (she previously had said she could provide that, so it shouldn't be an issue.) I also expressed my concern that his scores were so much lower than anticipated, given his previous tests. I then asked if it were possible to discuss formalizing his differentiation even without the g&t program (as we can always re-apply for that next year.)

I'm kind of leery of pushing the g&t entry thing at the moment, since things have been going fairly well this year... but at the same time I still think it's extremely important that he get challenging school work and the sooner the better! He needs to be getting much more challenging vocabulary work, have a faster pace in math and science and have some real work regarding reading comprehension that's actually at his level.



In the midst of all this angst of mine, we are working on putting our house on the market and moving! We will very likely change his school again, but we aren't decided on that yet... first we need to find a house, and see how the schools are there. I really like the grade 4 curriculum at this charter school (foreign language instruction beings! there's a robotics club he can join!) but if they keep dragging their feet on a 504 or IEP the extra work might end up being a disaster without the supports that he's going to need.

ETA: I do have a full report from his neuropsych, complete with accommodation recommendations for him. First I've gotta drag these damn people into an ARD meeting though!! RTI is great and all, but that's hardly going to help him if he freaks out during STARS testing this spring!

What they did was begin the RTI process... apparently it's a loophole the size of Texas that allows them to sit around and not actually do much of anything!

Hmm - it's unfortunate that your DS' school used the Terra Nova for achievement. My recollection is that there is not a whole lot of headroom. DS16, who took it almost a decade ago in 2nd grade, scored 99 percentile by missing only 1 or 2 questions. In other words, any tendency toward carelessness could significantly drop your score. I think that you can make a good argument with excellent achievement scores with a much higher ceiling.

Thanks Quantum... I wondering now, as well, if any part of the TerraNova is timed? DS has anxiety and one of the recommendations form the neuropsych was additional time when necessary on tests. If he sees a timer he basically freaks out and is nearly unable to work. (We've been trying to practice some on the xtramath site.)

So, I finally got a full copy of DS's scores on the TerraNova.. and now I'm even more annoyed, lol! I think I'm going to have to take some home-schooling action in the evenings and this summer!

Education Objective - Nat'l Avg - Student Score
Reading
16 - Analyze Text - 61.8 - 86
17 - Evaluate/Extend Meaning - 51.2 - 86
21 - Basic Understanding - 62.8 - 92
22 - Identify Reading Strategies - 60.5 - 75
Language
11 - Editing Skills - 54.7 - 50 (I don't believe he's been taught any editing skills so far...)
19 - Sentence Structure - 61.7 - 100
20 - Writing Strategies - 60.9 - 100 (no idea where he learned this)
Mathematics
01 - Measurement - 53.6 - 50 (again, I don't think he's been taught this yet)
02 - Geometry and Spatial Sense - 68.7 - 75
03 - Patterns, Functions, Algebra - 70.7 - 100
07 - Data Analysis, Statistics and Probability - 56.7 - 100
12 - Computation and Numerical Estimation - 57.4 - 50 (for some reason he always gets flustered on computational tests!)
13 - Problem Solving and Reasoning - 32.9 - 100
15 - Number and Number Relations - 60.6 - 100
18 - Operation Concepts - 44.6 - 100

So, yeah... fits DS's normal mode, it's either 100, or it's a disaster in math!

Here's the Norm-Referenced Scores
Content Areas - SS - GE - NS - NP (ss-scale score, ge-grade equiv, ns-nat'l stanine, np-nat'l %tile)
Reading - 655 - 6.7 - 7 - 87
Language - 648 - 5.7 - 7 - 83
Mathematics - 641 - 4.4 - 7 - 82

So, Editing, Measuring and basic computation is where we start!