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    mom123 #142846 11/14/12 06:35 PM
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    Ai don't get what they're saying. Anything you teach someone is just beyond what they know how to do now. Is it because one way show ases the incremental effort to learn and the other tries to present a 'whole to part ' lesson that they show off the end results and fill in the gaps? (or) Are they trying to say tht Japan raises the bar higher than we do?

    sounds like another verse of nclb. i googled
    Absolutely nothing. The teacher teaches at the middle level of the class in a mixed level class as Japan considers itself an egalitarian society and everyone is kept in the same class regardless of ability (in public schools) and treated equally. Slower kids might go to juku to keep up with classes and gifted kids might find their classes too boring or slow, and take extra classes or attend juku to keep stimulated. If classes are too easy for them its possible they will drop out or stop attending classes.
    Paul will know more about this than I due to the amount of time spent in Japan, but kids will go to a certain high school based on their academic ability (or lack thereof). That seems to be about as far as it goes.

    and their system is not flexible enough to acomidate kids who could do something better with their time

    <>

    source:
    google + What does Japan do with their gifted students?
    http://forum.gaijinpot.com/archive/index.php/t-16778.html


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    The "impossible problem" thing rang a bell, and indeed I'd read about it in Stevenson and Stigler's book The Learning Gap (which is quite interesting). In it, they write:

    Originally Posted by S&S
    We wanted to find out whether Asian students would in fact persevere longer than American students when given difficult problems. We planned to give children a mathematics problem that was impossible to solve, and see how long they would spend working on it before they gave up. Although the idea seemed reasonable, our Japanese colleagues convinced us to drop the task after they tried it out with several children. The difficulty? Japanese children, refusing to give up, kept working on the problem long beyond the time our colleagues felt they could justifiably allow the children to keep on trying.
    So I think this isn't something we're likely to find in the published literature: it sounds as though they did a pilot for something that might have turned into a full study, and abandoned it as described.

    On the next page of the book, they describe a different study that was carried out, though, in which American and Japanese children were asked to solve as many problems as possible in 20 mins. The American children attempted many more questions than the Japanese ones, but correctly solved a much lower proportion of them, getting a lower score overall.

    As for what the impossible task could have been, I think if I were designing it, it might be something like this:

    Find a number x (integer or fraction) such that x^2(x-3) = 3(x-1).

    (Depending on the age of the children you might spell out the equation in terms of "the number multiplied by itself" etc. - provided the children can add and multiply fractions, they can attempt this, and provided they do not know enough algebra to have encountered or invented the rational zeroes theorem, they can't prove that there isn't one. They can get tantalisingly close, though, which might well keep them trying!)

    The book I landed at when googling this, The Teaching and Learning of Mathematics at University Level: An ICMI Study
    edited by Derek Holton, has a list of beliefs about mathematics that it says have been documented in American children, including:

    Quote
    Students who understand the subject matter can solve assigned mathematics problems in five minutes or less. Corollary: Students stop working on a problem after just a few minutes because, if they haven't solved it, they didn't understand the material (and therefore will not solve it). (Schoenfeld, 1988, p151)
    This is key, I would suggest: it's not so much that the American children are lazy, more that they have simply never met the concept of a maths problem they can't solve quickly. The Schoenfeld reference supporting this is

    Schoenfeld, A. H. (1988). When good teaching leads to bad results: the disasters of "well-taught" mathematics classes. Educational Psychologist 23(2) 145-166.

    Which thanks to the wonders of google we can find here. It looks to me like a must-read paper... but I have to get on with the day job now!


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    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    Schoenfeld, A. H. (1988). When good teaching leads to bad results: the disasters of "well-taught" mathematics classes. Educational Psychologist 23(2) 145-166.

    Which thanks to the wonders of google we can find here. It looks to me like a must-read paper... but I have to get on with the day job now!

    Thank you for this link - the article is extremely interesting.

    The odd thing is, 1) I don't like Everyday Math, 2) I can easily agree with this article, and 3) trying to fix the problems exposed in the article seems to lead to EM.

    I wonder if it may just come down to the fact that arithmetic and mathematical (logical) thinking are only loosely related- in the same way as reading and history. You can certainly use each in teaching the other, but the learning goals are very different. I absolutely want my kids to experience mathematical discovery, but I'm not convinced that multidigit multiplication is an algorithm I want them to have to figure out on their own.

    It seems there may be something profound here. Maybe more thought will bring it to the surface.

    ljoy #142923 11/16/12 08:14 AM
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    Originally Posted by ljoy
    The odd thing is, 1) I don't like Everyday Math, 2) I can easily agree with this article, and 3) trying to fix the problems exposed in the article seems to lead to EM.

    Heh, I had this same thought. I've TAUGHT EDM, and don't like it generally or for mathy kids specifically, but there are certain aspects of it that are... well... TRYING to address issues that existed in "traditional" math curricula. I'd argue that they don't do it well, that they then ignore a lot of important stuff in the process, and that the sum result is a poorer math education, BUT...

    Let's take long division. The partial-quotients method is a pain in the butt to actually use on any functional level. It does, however, guide not-quite-struggling-but-not-quite-getting-it kids through the process of manipulating bigger numbers using division and multiplication. It is, IMHO, a good things to sit and puzzle over and struggle with to really understand what's going on when you're dividing multi-digit numbers if you don't already have a conceptual idea as to what's going on. It's fiddly. It builds conceptual understanding of how numbers fit into other numbers, and how numbers multiply, and how the two are connected. If I had an otherwise math-OK kid who was struggling to understand exactly why big numbers behave the way they do when divided, or why an answer that's off by a factor of ten was incorrect ("this answer doesn't make sense because blah blah blah...")

    BUT. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT. It's not an effective way to actually divide. When I taught EDM, I watched my students, who I knew darn well were capable of dividing, laboring through the partial-quotients method. I taught them "traditional" division in a half hour, and because they all had a good understanding of how it worked, it just clicked. EDM, and I say this as someone who is not a huge fan as a teacher or parent, uses things that could be decent "learning process" tools, but just... doesn't go any further. If the learning is in the struggle, that's all well and good, but after students have wrestled with concepts and emerged victorious, there needs to be a moment where the students sit back, assess what they learned in that struggle, and then attain mastery.

    EDM, in its spiraling "wisdom," never seems to get there. The kids wrestle with something (in this case dividing larger numbers), gain a bit of understanding, and then are whisked on to the next topic. So now you've got a group of kids who have an understanding of how to divide multi-digit numbers (hopefully), but haven't been guided to the point where they can use that knowledge.

    "Exploring," aka fiddling around or struggling with the numbers or whatever else you want to call it, is a good thing. EDM just doesn't follow up that fiddling with a nice "now you understand what's going on, let's take a few days and learn an easy, fool-proof way to get this done." <-- All this and many, many other issues I have with the curriculum, of course.

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