Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment SCAT and IQ -- should we test?

Hello. This is my first time posting here. My 10 year old dd has always been homeschooled, so I don't have a lot of data about her academic performance. Last spring, she took the SCAT for CTY just before her 10th birthday. She was in 4th grade. Her scores were as follows:

Norm: 6
Test Form: IY1
Verbal: 94%
Quantitative: 91%

I was a little surprised as how well she did, especially given that our homeschooling has been pretty relaxed. I wonder if I have been under-estimating her somewhat, and I am considering having her take the WISC to get more a sense for her, and because I wonder whether her scores might be high enough to qualify her for DYS. Is anyone aware of a correlation between achievement scores such as the SCAT and IQ? If she were to take the WISC, might she score in a range that would make her eligible for DYS?

I realize no one can say for sure. I'm just a little nervous to do this, and am wondering what to expect.

Thanks in advance for any information about this.

The SCAT verbal test has only analogies whereas the WISC verbal has much more than that. The SCAT math test has computational math, etc. The WISC test has spatial and other things. The two tests examine different things.

The usual question is, what are you thinking that testing might achieve? Given that you're homeschooling it's presumably not that you want evidence from testing to persuade a school to do something (unless you are planning to send her to school again later? even then, achievement testing is probably more useful). Would DYS, if she qualified for it, give you something that seems very worth having, e.g. is she desperate for contact with intellectual peers? If so, testing might make sense. But if it isn't broke, I'd suggest don't fix it :-)

In thinking about whether to test, I would ask what you hope to gain, and whether the cost will be worth it.

Is your child working 2+ years ahead in multiple subjects, or 3+ in a single subject? Are there other reasons to think that she would score in DYS ranges on the WISC? If she does score high enough on the WISC, do you plan to have her achievement tested, or do you have a compelling portfolio to support the potential IQ test results? Perhaps most importantly, why do you want to gain entry to DYS-- what do you see as necessary or helpful benefits of the program for your homeschooled child? Will you still be just as happy with your child if she doesn't score at the 99.9th percentile for entry to DYS-- that is, can you divorce your own wishes from this process? Will you still feel that you've gotten value from the testing if she doesn't qualify?

(I think the answer to that last question depends on whether you have reason to believe that your daughter may have learning disabilities. I think it's most important to teach a child at the proper level and pace, but results of IQ tests and achievement tests like the Woodcock Johnson don't really help with that, instead just telling you how rare a particular set of test results are. This info won't help you much in homeschooling your daughter.)

There's IQ testing and IQ testing. Be prepared to pay more for testing with a professional who knows about gifted children and their quirks, rather than an intern at the local college or a garden-variety psychologist who sidelines in IQ testing for money.

Aside from any decision to test, I would begin by assessing carefully what leads you to question whether you've been underestimating your daughter. Is she ready for more advanced material or a faster pace than you've been giving her? Does she have needs or talents that aren't well satisfied currently? Does she ask for more or different work?

FWIW, my ds' SCAT scores on verbal did roughly match his overall IQ. But that's one random data point out of thousands of unkowns, and as the others have pointed out, SCAT tests far less than the WISC etc.

Why are you nervous to test? Is there some reason to be worried that her WISC scores wouldn't match? I look at testing as collecting data, and that's that. The data can be useful to get into a program that your child would benefit from, and it can be useful to understand relative strengths & weaknesses, learning styles, etc. It *isn't* useful if there is some kind of worry of your own tied into the testing - ie, this is just an off-the-cuff example, doesn't have anything to do with you! - if you are convinced your dd is a DYS level kid, then find out he's really a 90th percentile IQ kid. The *only* thing that really means is she doesn't qualify for DYS. He will still be the same kid, who is going to exhibit the same unique learning style/needs/etc that she has in the past, and she still needs an individualized education and a caring parent as an advocate etc. just as much as he would if he qualified for DYS.

And last question to consider: why do you want to test? As I mentioned, testing has been helpful for my kids to understand their strengths and weaknesses, but they are also kids who are 2e and have had challenges in learning. It's info that would be fun and interesting and useful to have even if they hadn't had those challenges, but on the flip side, I think I could have figured out much of their learning style and strengths and weaknesses simply from working with them.

It *has* been helpful to have their WISC scores when advocating for acceleration at school and for entry into g/t programs.

And.. just curious.. what type of testing did she have to qualify for CTY (so that she was eligibile to take the SCAT)? Or was she young enough to qualify based on a parent recommendation without testing?

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thank you so much to everyone that responded! Your comments are thoughtful, warm, and supportive. Here's a little more about our situation.

My husband and I were both id'd as gifted when we were in elementary school, and that was a very good thing for me. I was bullied, etc., and having something that made me feel good about myself and having a safe place to go once a week was a life-saver. When my husband and I had kids, I wasn't really interested in ever thinking of them "as a number," so I avoided any kind of testing. We have always homeschooled, but while we were deciding whether or not to hs, we did apply to kindie at the local private schools. Many of them in our area require full IQ tests for entrance, and I was horrified at that. We made it a point of principle NOT to apply to any school that required a test.

So we've been very relaxed homeschoolers, almost unschoolers all along. I've just always made sure that my kids had plenty of time to play and be kids. I haven't been interested in pushing academics. My DD has been reading about 4 grades above grade level (I think?), but otherwise, I was really just interested in making sure she didn't fall horribly behind in any subject in case we ever needed or wanted to go to school.

When she was in 3rd, she took the California Achievement Test. In our state, homeschoolers are required to do standardized testing in 3rd grade. She did very well, and her scores on that qualified her to take the SCAT for JHU CTY.

I still wasn't thinking in terms of advanced academics or gifted or anything else like that until last year, when she became good friends with a DYS girl. This girl's mother started asking me about what I was doing about my DD's giftedness, and I was like, huh? I think I had always avoided thinking that way because it seemed so...like I would be valuing my child for some isolated quality, rather than just accepting her as a whole person.

But my friend's questions made me start thinking, and when I randomly ran across CTY during a non-related web search, I was intrigued by the course offerings. So was DD, so we decided to take the SCAT, and the rest of that story you know already.

So what about the WISC? Well, things really aren't broke, so why would I fix it? That is the main argument for not testing, and it is a pretty persuasive one. On the other hand, I can say that embracing the gifted label and hooking up with CTY has been very, very good for my daughter. We finally have found a math curriculum that really works for us. Perhaps most importantly, her self-concept has really soared. She is a pretty self-conscious, perfectionistic, introverted kid, so having something like this has meant a great deal to her. I don't know that we need more validation, but sometimes I think to myself that it would be really nice to have!

I guess my other reason for wanting to test is that I feel like I don't really know what I am dealing with here. I certainly wasn't challenging her academically before recently. And by the way, I don't think that is at all a bad thing. I am very grateful that through 4th grade, she had lots and lots of time to play, pretend, rest, read, and follow her own interests. Now that she is nearing middle school, I am likewise very grateful that I have a new perspective, and now know about all kinds of wonderful resources for bright kids that can challenge her going forward. (Fifth grade seems like just about the right time to step it up a notch.) We are doing a lot more academically this year than we have, and much of what we are doing is accelerated or advanced, and I can see that for the most part, she is loving it and thriving.

So while I don't feel that it was a terrible mistake that I didn't have an accurate sense of the extent of her abilities before, I do think it might be good to gather information to make decisions in the future. One of the wonderful things about homeschooling is being able to meet your children exactly where they are, without having to worry about where grade or age mates are. On the other hand, I do find that, for me, it has been hard not having ANY idea what "normal" is. I really don't have much of an idea of whether she is working above grade level, or could work above grade level because I don't really know what "normal" kids are doing in 5th grade. I don't have a sense of how bright she is, because for the most part, the only other kids I am around are her super smart friends.

So her intelligence just seems pretty normal! While that perspective certainly isn't all bad, there is a part of me that wonders whether having more information about her specific strengths and weaknesses might not be really helpful.

Thanks again for helping me think this through.