Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Is he really gifted?

If a teacher notices that something's up, there usually is, even if the teacher is not equipped to accurately identify that something. My feeling is that if something's been noticed as atypical, it's a good idea to get an evaluation with a capable professional. A developmental pediatrician or a neuropsychologist is a good place to start.

My DS10, who is both gifted and on the autism spectrum, flew under the radar until kindergarten. Nobody believed he could possibly be autistic-- he was, after all, so smart-- even though he had many of the classic signs. He really is autistic, and he could have benefited a lot from interventions in those early years.

Autism is neither an insult nor a death sentence; it's a neurological difference. Nobody is trying to hurt your feelings by suggesting your DS might be on the spectrum-- they are likely trying to help.

DeeDee

Not having met your DS, I can't speak to that specific situation, but in general, there isn't always a huge difference.

A person with autism tends to be drawn intensely to their own, often limited, topics of interest. Until they learn how, many are not capable of getting interested in something simply because someone else is interested.

Most typical kids will easily get interested in things if another person demonstrates an interest-- that social pull can drive the intellectual engagement. For an autistic person, the lack of interest can be in part due to a lack of social perspective-taking-- not being able to appreciate what the other person finds interesting.

DeeDee

I'm on the fence here. DeeDee my DS responds to that social pull that you mention, and he engages well, when he's interested. I guess it depends on the child, and the type and frequency of these interactions.

(He just had two friends over, and they, he and DD all played happily together for a couple of hours).

In grade one, DS was screened for autism by the school's psychology intern. In her report, as evidence of "spectrum like behaviour," she mentioned that DS became withdrawn because no one would play chess with him. He tried to find someone to play with, and when he discovered no one else knew how, he decided to play alone. (They weren't clear in the report if he played chess alone or something else - but evidently he wasn't interested in whatever the other kids were doing).

Now I'm not saying DS isn't on the spectrum (because who really knows) but choosing solitude over playing something that bored him just for the sake of having a playmate doesn't necessarily put him on the spectrum.

At what point is a child NOT on the spectrum, but simply an introvert?

Social issues is merely one aspect of Autism. I'm sure you've seen the criteria, but a child who's only symptom is social problems is unlikely to be autistic.

My son is PDD-NOS, and his case is considered 'mild', but he's had MASSIVE trouble in the past making friends and fitting in at school. He's made great strides in the past few months, but he's often completely unaware of other people's emotions/interests/intents. It's not that he can't be empathetic, but that it doesn't even occur to him to evaluate other people's behavior unless he's bored. This year, for the first time, after months of fiddling with medication and finding a behavioral therapist, my son has FRIENDS at school. Boys his own age.

Sorry for my random outburst... I've been reading a lot lately on another site about people suggesting autism at the drop of a hat just because a child is shy, or throws a tantrum or has a speech delay! Autism is so much more than that, and I don't think it does kids who actually have an ASD any favors to 'normalize' it and make it seem like tons of people have it, and oh, it's not big deal, just a little autistic!

I know we talked about this a little on my tread regarding putting DS4 into special ed preschool ... you gave me a lot to think about back then already. I am not dismissing the possibility of DS2.5 being on the spectrum, more specifically Asperger's, especially since now we're looking at DS4 being officially diagnosed with Asperger's in the near future knowing there's a good chance for it to run in the family. But with DS2.5 I just don't get that vibe I've always had with DS4. I can tell he's just bored. His Speech therapist laughs every week how he's playing games with her. He pretends to be completely ignoring her and not listening at all from time to time, and then at the end of the session or even not until next week ... he does exactly what she wanted him to do ... just on his own terms. He sometimes has this sparkle in his eyes saying "I'll show you who runs the show!" lol ... but still, even though I don't think he'll end up with a diagnosis we're continuing with the therapies just in case. It's really such a tough call with kids this young and I wouldn't want to regret someday dismissing something just because I didn't think it was right.

But back to the "not interested" issue ... When his Developmental Therapist noticed he's a lot more advanced in some areas she started bringing him more challenging puzzles and toys and he is a lot more engaged in all the activities she has for him than before. When she treated him as the 2.5 year old he is, he was bored and would run away to do something more fun. Now that she brings him stuff for older kids, she gets his attention.

The world is undoubtedly less tolerant of introverts than it used to be. And yet there is, to my mind, a real difference between finding engaging with others a bit on the draining side, and lacking the skills to do it at all. One could see it as a matter of degree of introversion, but I see it also as a matter of skills.

I am an introvert but also usually reasonably effective at engaging others in social situations. I have that skill set. DS10 typically makes mistakes that annoy people in social situations, even when he is aiming to please. His personal radar is not naturally tuned for sociability, even though he is actually more extroverted than I am by nature and loves being with people. By nature, he has little sense of what will please or interest others. There's a real difference there.


I think that's wise. The therapies will build skills in areas where he needs them, regardless of whether you consider those areas to be a disability or not.


Here is how it looked for us. In preschool, DS didn't participate in the activities that other kids participated in. He was busy building model solar systems and doing math. Lots of people told us he was too smart to engage with other kids, that they just weren't on his level. But over time it became apparent that there were two problems: not only were his interests very different from those of other children, but ALSO he lacked the skills to engage. Both of these factors were real and operating in tandem.

His interests allowed him to get away with not engaging, both by looking smart (meaning that teachers wouldn't intervene because seeing him do math was so exciting) and by intimidating other kids into staying away and watching from a distance. The interests were real, but they were also a means of coping with the lack of social skills.

Once we built the social skills through therapy, DS was much more able to engage with age peers, and actually enjoys it. It is a mistake, IMO, to think that gifted kids are so much smarter than other kids that it's okay if they don't engage in reciprocal relationships with peers.

YMMV, that's our experience.

DeeDee

Amy, I hope you don't think I'm diagnosing everybody in sight. I would not dream of diagnosing a child over the internet. I am not a doctor, and diagnosing is the job of capable professionals who evaluate the child, preferably in 6+ hours of testing and observation using standardized instruments, not just gut feelings.


Well, it is part of normal reality, as in, lots of people ARE born that way. (1 in 88 boys is the current statistic, girls are still so underdiagnosed that the number there isn't reliable). Roughly one kid per grade in our elementary school.

But it is a big deal, especially since the world (the educational system, the job system) isn't geared for the needs, talents, etc. of the autistic population. Not to be taken lightly or dismissed.

One reason I write here is that the needs of the ASD/gifted population aren't addressed well anywhere, so far as I can see; they are marginal among ASD populations as well as among gifted populations and typical populations. There is still a lot that clinicians have to learn about distinguishing ASD/gifted from gifted or from ADHD/gifted or any other number of things. I am less interested in diagnosing per se than I am in ensuring that kids get the support they need.

DeeDee

Hey, you found my world!

Seriously. I am so sick of them pathologizing introversion. My Ds is introverted (as is my DH) but both have much better social skills than I, an extrovert, imo . Personally, as an extrovert I am a bit jealous of the introverts... I think it's a better way to be. I like how they don't need to be running their mouths all of the time over every problem they have and how they do not feel compelled to give their opinions about everything like me and my extroverted co-horts. LOL. Both also seem to care less about 'peer pressure' or fitting in. But neither is even remotely on the spectrum.

And my DS isn't even the most introverted kid - he loves to converse and is very good at it (has been since he could talk at 2)... But it seems like the school is still a bit freaked-out about introversion - like it is something that has to be treated. In Kindy they put DS in a "social skills class for shy kids." I thought it was completely unnecessary but Ds enjoyed it (and it got him out of "boring" class work) so I didn't balk. If DS likes it and, personally, I believe ALL young kids (extroverts and introverts) can benefit from social skills guidance (not sure why they don't throw the kids constantly doing potty-talk and picking their noses and eating it in social skills class but I digress), then by all means pay some teacher a ton of money (wealthy school district) to do a "social skills" class for DS... But still, in the back of my mind I was annoyed as I knew they probably saw DS being introverted as a 'problem' and/or red flag for an ASD. After a few weeks, though, it did become clear DS didn't really "need it" (surprise surprise). I am assuming maybe it was more for children Dx with autism spectrum dsorders who need to learn how to converse, maintain eye contact and take turns and share and such (all of which my DS is really good at) and they discontnued it for DS saying it became obvious he didn't need it. DS was a bit disappointed as he liked it. But really? This was in the first two weeks of school they decided to throw DS in this ... They saw he was a bit introverted and didn't mind playing alone instead of engaging in "potty talk" and suddenly he needs some sort of therapy/special class! Well, apparently, they are doing the same thing this year...I think. DS asked me the other day when he was going to start getting pulled out for a "special playgroup." I didn't know what he was talking about. He said a school psychologist pulled him out of class the first week to introduce herself and tell him that he will be in the social skills playgroup. He was happy about it (even though he's introverted he still is actually social LOL and is hoping it'll get him out of the boring stuff) but it hasn't happened yet. I am thinking they may have changed their minds (b/c I volunteer at the school and he is really very good socially), we'll see I guess. But again, they see a more reserved or introverted child and they are all over it to "treat" it. I guess I'd rather be in a district who has so much money and resources and to over-treat than to under-treat or ignore problems but, on the other hand, I think there is a dark side to "looking for autisism or related disorders" everywhere. I think it is smart to do things the way DS does (he likes to spend several weeks observing the other children and deciding which children he thinks he would like to have as a friend - then he strategizes ways to approach the children (usually boys) he identifies as potential friends... he actually reports himself that this is how he likes to do things). And I think it is fine to be a person or a kid who doesn't mind being on his own. I do think it can be ESPECIALLY damaging to gifted kids and 2E kids who are sooooo prone to mis-lables and mis-diagnosis.

Just my experience.

Marytheres...

Making lasting judgements on a child's behavior (whether positives or negatives or anywhere else) in the first MONTH (let alone week?) of a new environment is ridiculous.

Different people (kids and adults) will react differently to change. My dh is very introverted and will always be the one to "sit back and watch" in a new environment. I am the big-mouth who can't shut up (trying to get better at this). Once dh is comfortable, he is funny, quirky, social self.

Social reciprocity struggles should not be interchanged with introvertedness or shyness. These are different symptoms that may appear the same on the surface to a novice, but arise from different roots underneath.