Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment No IQ given and test results

Hello

I'm hoping someone can help me interpret what my daughter's test results mean. She is 8 years old and had the WISC-IV and partial WIATT-II administered a few months ago. Unfortunately she was very tired on the day which may have affected her results somewhat. The psychologist could not give her an IQ result as in her words "a full scale IQ was not given due to the wide discrepancy in her composite scores."

My daughter falls into the high/average range according to her results but at school her marks have been falling and the teachers did not pay any attention to the report and tests I had done. I am worried that she may be mildly gifted (as I understand mildly is a score form 115)in English yet she only scored a C on her last report card. Her maths is very poor (where it wasn't previously in year 1) but according to the psychologist this is unusual if you calculate her expected composite score with someone of her cognitive abilities.

Also she seems to do better in the WIATT than the WISC though she was not tested in the written. I'm not sure why. Can anyone shed some light on what her IQ would be if you left out the WMI and PSI which I understand is sometimes done? Or calculate her GAI? I've tried to do it but don't seem able. Even though she doesn't appear to be gifted I need help to make the teachers understand that she is capable of more and underperforming at school and her marks are dropping for a reason. Thanks in advance:

WISC composite scores:

VCI 112 79%
PRI 110 75%
WMI 102 55%
PSI 91 27%

Subtests

Similarities raw 18 scaled 12 75%
Vocabularly raw 33 scaled 14 91%
Comprehension raw 19 scaled 11 63%
Block Design raw 26 sclaed 11 63%
Picture Concepts raw 17 sclaed 11 63%
Matrix Reasoning raw 21 scaled 13 84%
Digit Span raw 13 scaled 10 50%
Letter-number sequencing raw 16 scaled 11 63%
Coding raw 29 scaled 9 37%
Symbol Search raw 13 scaled 8 25%

WIATT-11

Word Reading 82%
Reading comprehension 90%
Psuedoword Decoding 81%
Numerical operations 12%
Maths Reasoning 42%

Composite score for reading is 118
predicated composite score for maths 109 (according to cognitive abilites)

Just wanted to add that I had my daughter tested as I was advised to by her previous school which identified her as possibly G/T when she was in Prep. It took me three years from that time until I finally had the testing done. I had the test done as her marks started slipping and I worried that she might have a LD.

The Psychologist hinted that she shows slight characteristics of ASpergers but nothing extreme. I did feel that she didn't perform as well on the WISC test as I would have expected as she had only had about 5-6 hours sleep. Also she is a perfetionist and also on the anxious side so that may have impacted on her results. Having said that I accept that she probably isn't gifted, (though giftedness is on both sides on the family)as her previous school thought, but is bright and should be doing well in school. This is what the psychologist told me. I met with her teacher and principal who as I said didn't give her results on the test the time of day. I feel frustrated by this as she seems to be defintely working above average in English at least yet isn't getting good grades at school anymore.

Thanks for any replies or insight.

Your daughter is definitely one of those kids who would have a higher GAI than FSIQ.

Is giftedness the best perspective to view her situation through? I'm not sure. I haven't heard the term 'mildly gifted'very often or seen the 115 number - I see stuff more like this:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm
but your daughter is certainly bright with both VCI and PRI in the high 70%.

But daily life can be difficult with such low scores in WMI AND PSI. Look over http://www.pearsonassessments.com/N...89A-609160D94DA8/0/WISCIVTechReport6.pdf

Apparently there is an 'anti-GAI' called the Cognitive Proficiency Index. I would ask the tester if the GAI CPI difference is enough to qualify your child as Learning Disabled, and I would be super cautious that she isn't one of those sweet girls with ADHD inattentive who fall through the cracks quite regularly.

It's totally possible that the test, which is just a snapshot of a single day, doesn't reflect your daughter at all. Here's an imaginary narrative of what the scores reflect - see if it matches your DD:

"Delightful child who tells unusually charming stories with very strong vocabulary and well beyond age level use of literary devices, showing strong problem solving abilities. Verbal stories might be much more vivid than written down work. Logical sequencing is age appropriate and not a strength. She shows a much greater interest in following her own train of thought than in following the agenda of adults, unless there is an emotional connection."

Understanding how your daughter looks to teachers (why she appear to be an average student, when she is actually bright) is going to require you to deeply understand Working Memory. I've written a bunch of posts about this on my website.

http://schoolsuccesssolutions.com/resources/posts-about-working-memory-limitations/

Understanding Processing Speed is key as well, but of I think that is more intuitive. Here's a post on that http://wp.me/s2tcDf-691


If the scores are actually reflective of where your daughter is at this time, then I don't think that they are going to be useful in working with teachers. Maybe the special ed department, and then as support for another diagnosis. In the US, a parent's written request for a special ed eval must be addressed with in a certain number of days. Get the ball rolling if you haven't already. It's really common for kids with profiles like this to be perceived as 'just not trying' by the teacher, so some resistance is to be expected.

I think you have a lot of other avenues that will be useful.
But first the questions:
How long has school been going on where you live?
How many face to face meetings have you had with the teacher?
What does the teacher think is the cause of your DD's school problems?
Are there alternative school options?
Have you requested a special ed eval?
Is homeschooling a possibility?
What's do the other adults in your DD's life think?
How much support do you have for shaking things up radically - internally and externally?
When is school out? When does she change buildings?

Please write more about your situation. It sounds like things have already gotten bad and that the emotions are running high. It's very disappointing to not be able to get help for your kid.

It's important to put your 'oxygen mask' on first and take stock, do you have the emotional strength and willingness to take charge of the current school or is it better to switch to a different school? Is it better to just forget about school validation and spend your time with your child developing her character and her strengths and letting her find her own ways to develop compensations? A situation like this calls for deep wisdom from a parent. I'm so glad you reached out.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Dear Grinity

Thank you so much for your considered reply. I live in Aust. and some websites say that 115 is midly gifted which probably means above average or something. Not sure why they use the term gifted. I have read though, on some sites, that children who score in the top 20% should probably be considered for extension work.

Your description of my daughter fits in part though she loves writing stories and writes them all the time without any prompting. Her vocab. has always been beyond those of her peers. She's not really a reader though. She perfers to make up games which she gets completely lost in for hours on end. Her imagination seems endless, almost boadering on obessive. She was like this even as a toddler. She would pretend she was a horee and run for hours! Somtimes when she's drawing she can do it for hours also. One night she drew a movie story-board plan for 7 1/2 hours straight. I think this might be the reason why the psychologist thought she was displaying mild characteristics of Aspergers. However if she does have Aspergers it must be very mild as she doesn't really fit th eprofile in most respects except a couple. She does take things literally and is very concerned with being neat and doing things just right.

So I would describe her as a highly creative child. She can have mood swings and get quite frustrated but this is usually when she is tired. She has always asked the big questions such as does God exist? Where does the universe end? She stopped believing in Santa and the tooth fairy at about 3 and worked out the concept of death at abuot the same time when she wept 'cause she realised that I would die one day. She is intense, reserved, self-concious but loves the company of other kids and likes to control the play. She is also very aware of other peoples feeings and reaches out to those who are lonely or isolated. She seems to feel deeply for animals and those badly done by.

When she was little she seemed to have a great level concentration which impressed us all. At 2 1/2 my mother took her to a proper ballet that lasted over 2 hours and she sat still without a peep out of her for all that time. She does the same with long films, stories as well. She doesn't seem particularly slow to me. She does things when I ask and is, generally, keen to please. Though I have to sometimes remind her several times.

I've considered moving schools but it's so disruptive for both my daughters and on the whole they are happy there. Unfortunately there is little funding for special ed. They really just concetrate on children that can't read well.
I've pestered the school quite a bit. I'm sure they're sick of me. I managed to get her 1/2 hr special ed. a week to help with her maths. I also engaged a private tutor which I can't afford. I hope we will see some improvement. When I asked why my daughter marks were falling I was told that although she was a good reader she didn't do well in her comprehension tests which completely contradicts her WIATT score of 90%. she will often say to me "I just don't understand what they are asking me to do". I have asked the teacher if she could perhaps write instructions down for Eve so she sees the steps involved but I don't thin she is doing this. I feel as though the school is fed up with my pestering. They have no explanation except that she is an average student with good reading skills.

I really apppreciate your advice and have looked at your links. Could you calculate her GAI or is this not useful unless she is gifted? As you said I think she is bright and her marks at school are not reflecting this. I tired to explain to the teacher that according to her WISC and WIATT she should be doing better than average or below average. Maybe there is a LD but no teacher's have ever said that they suspect she has one.

Again thank you so much for your insight. I hope I can help my daughter fufil her potential.

This is an example of one of the websites that uses the term midly gifted to refer to those that fall into the 115-129 range.

Are scores different in Australia? Anyway I believe that the suggestion is that midly gifted children (who probably are better off being called bright so as not to confuse the issue)do not need to skip grades or go to special classes but may benefit from some extension work.

http://www.gifted-children.com.au/levels_of_giftedness.

Lastly I forgot to mention that while my daughter is stuggling to get good marks in English and Maths she does well in most other areas of the curriculum in particular Art, Music and PE. So I suppose her strengths and interest probably lie in the creative realm.

"Giftedness" is basically whatever people want it to mean. It's not like there is an official regulating body that defines these things. The 'average' score for most IQ tests is something like 90-110. Above that is obviously, literally, 'above average'. How far above average you have to get to be 'gifted' varies depending on who you talk to. In the states most gifted programs don't even use IQ scores, and the hard-to-get-into gifted schools seem to want somewhere north of 130, from what I've read.

Your daughter definitely appears to be at least a little above average, and it does seem like she's under achieving if she's getting C's in English. Have you talked to her & the teacher to see what the problem is? Is she distracted in class? Not turning in assignments? Spacing out on required information? That's the sort of information that's going to best help you, I'd think.

I'd also remind you that a bad/mediocre teacher can lead to really, really depressed scores. I grew up nearly always in honors/advanced classes, but I had a few years where I made C's in various classes... for various reasons. I had one math class that was so boring I never paid attention, and instead read books the whole time. As a result I hardly ever had the work completed or homework... several 0's will bring down your grade pretty dramatically. I also managed to get a C one 6-week period in English because I simply hated the teacher. (I realized I was shooting myself in the foot after that, hah.)

Back in the 1970s where I was in PA you had to get a 135 on the Stanford-Binet to get your weekly pullout for gifted class. I think that was 99th percentile then, but I could be wrong.

There seems to be much less emphasis on IQ these days and more on intangibles.

Thanks everyone for your imput. Grinity I did reply to your post and look at your website but it doesn't seem to have made it to the site yet. Perhaps it will in the next day. I explain more fully the situation.

Thanks again. Re: The teacher. It did seem to me and my husband and mother that she had taken a disliking to my daughter and was making excuses such as she had talked to her friend twice in class and disobeyed a direction. She also gave her B's and C's for behaviour and effort. In the past my daughter had always scored all A's and the teachers always commented on what a pleasure she was to teach. She also scored A's this year in all her subjects that were with different teachers such as art and music.

Since I've kicked up a fuss the teacher has been much kinder to my daughter. I think she had set her opinion against her. I suspect this may have affected her marks but I don't suppose I'll ever know for sure. My daughter never complained about her teacher except to say that she'd never ask her to answer a question when she put up her hand or help her much when she was confused and asked for help. This teacher, however, is highly regarded at the school.

Hi Grinity

It seems like my previous post in reply to you evaporated into cyberspace. Anyway thank you very much for such a considered response to my concerns.

You are right this is not really a gifted issue. I wrote on this forum because 1. It was IQ and performance testing which I thought someone might be able to help me with. 2. because I contacted the psychologist about the descrepencies and she said there was no reason to calculate and GAI but you seem to think there might be? 3. I was told at my DD's pervious school, which has the most distinguished G/T programe in the State, that they had indentified her as possibly gifted or accelerated leraner. I moved her from this school 'cause I wasn't happy with many things there and sent her to our local State Primary school which is much smaller and nicer.

I never had her tested for G/T though the teacher and principal where quite insistant that I should. It was only this year (year 3) that it occured to me to have it done due to her fall in marks. Her marks had always been above average. Not brillant but I was happy enough with them and her progress as were the teachers. In fact she was moved into a special class in grade 2 that was a 2/3 composite with 5 other grade 2's because the principal phoned me and said that she was doing well academically and with behaviour. It seemed that she was doing a lot of grade 3 work.

Fast forward to grade 3 and her report card for maths and English wasn't so good. A D for maths and a C for English - though she does well in the Arts. She loves drawing and dance. I met with the teacher a number of times asking for special Ed. The teacher seemed to be insulted by my request. I went and saw the speical Ed. teacher on my own and after much begging and pleading managed to get DD 1/2 hr a week along with 3 other kids from her class. That's all they could do for her. During my meeting with Special Ed. the teacher came up unexpectedly and seemed very cross. Rather than discussing my daughters needs she went on about how DD was playing up in class. I was shocked as all her previous teachers had given her A's for behaviour. I asked what she had done and they seemed like very trivial transgressions to me. She had talked to her friend in class a couple of times and had failed to carry out an instruction! Even though I felt this was nit-picking I asked the teacher what could be done to improve her behaviour and she said nothing. She said she perfered a student who is overtly out of line to my DD who she saw as being quietly resistant...

After all of this I didn't know what to do. I didn't feel the teacher was right and also I was concerned that she wasn't addressing my daughters real issue which was a fall in marks. Thus I took her for testing. I don't think she has inattentive ADD but I could be wrong. She has always had an amazing capacity to focus. When she was 2 1/2 she went to a 2 hour adult ballet and sat there mezmorised the entire time without a peep out of her. The psychologist did mention that she did show very mild signs of Aspergers. I think she may have said this as I told her that DD had spent the previous night drawing for 7 hours straight. While 7 hours is out of the ordinary she does frequently get consumed by her projects and passions for hours on end as is extremly creative. She also loves writing stories but perfers writing her own to reading though she is about a year ahead her age in reading. She also does seem to take some things a bit to literally.

I have looked at your links and they are very informative. I have had a meeting with the teacher and principal and while they seemed to dismiss the report from the psychologist the teacher does seem to have made a real effort to treat my DD better. There hasn't been any more mention of behaviour problems which I don't think existed in the first place . I just wanted to teacher to see that DD was clearly on the bright side and, as the psycologist states, should really be doing well in all areas of the curriculum. I think I'm a bit worn out from fighting this battle now and perhaps I've done all I can do without alienating the teacher who is highly regarded in the school. I hope DD will find ways to compensate and that I can help her were possible.

Again I'd like to thank you for your support. I was also wondering if you were able to calculate her GAI or is that not relevant unless the child is gifted?