Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Question about algebra and radical acceleration

I disagree. Teaching maths, reading, etc. is the primary responsibility of the school, not the parents. Otherwise, why do we even have schools?

What are kids doing in school all day if not learning? Why do they need to go home and keep doing what they were supposedly doing a few hours ago and will be doing again tomorrow?

California schools close at ~2:30 except on Wednesdays when they close after lunch to accomodate "in service" time for teachers. Why do schools need "in service days" every week? Why can't they do this at 2:45? And 2:30 is very early anyway. Why do schools close so early in a country that spends more per student than all but one or two others in the world?

Val

My dd learned her multiplication tables in 1st grade (she was being moved to 2nd grade math) with those 5 minute drills. Twice a week, children have five minutes to complete a set of worksheets (starts with addition, followed by subtraction, then mixed addition/subtraction, multiplication, division, then all mixed). As children master once concept (able to get 100% on all questions under 5 min.) they move to the next concept. It is 10 minutes a week and by the end of the year my dd knew all the mutliplication tables to 12. It certainly was helpul when she stared doing division and multiplication to be able to easily recall those facts.

I feel children need to master basic facts before they can move to more complex concepts.

Yes, indeed! The whole reason I mentioned times tables is because that's one area where drill (and not kill) can be useful. But I think most of the areas in which the schools are drilling are not effective.

Most kids learn best by doing, by hands-on work with concepts. Drill is a waste of time for most subject areas.



I SOOOOO agree with you on this point, Val! This is why we chose to homeschool. If they have the kids for 7+ hours a day, they ought to be able to teach most of what the kids need to know. If the kids aren't learning at school, then why are they there?

Most days after school, I want elementary school-aged kids outside playing and getting some exercise!

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, I think this only works in a perfect world where all kids are on the same page. I also think it is definitely the parents responsibility to make sure their child is getting what they need. The schools are strapped to try to accommodate everyone and all learning levels. If they work on multiplication until every last child completely gets it, they would never get off multiplication in some instances. Some children just need to work on some things more than others so I don't think the kids who do get it faster should be penalized and wait while the others keep working on it. The teachers have to move on at some point. If my child is the only child not getting something, is it the teachers responsibility to keep working on it with him, or is it mine to get him the help he needs to keep up? (and I'm not talking about problems requiring an IEP, maybe just difficulty understanding a particular subject). Personally, I think it would be my responsibility to help him out. Just as so many here have gotten grade skips, or are after schooling or homeschooling to get their individual child the level of education they need.

Definitely this isn't optimum. But with the way schools currently are, and I don't see a radical over haul coming any time soon (although maybe one could be used!) I think realistically it is ultimately the parents who are responsible for making sure their child gets the education they need. I'm sure others will disagree, and that is fine, but that is just the way I personally feel about it.

Kriston said "Most kids learn best by doing, by hands-on work with concepts."

I completely agree, and honestly, I haven't noticed that much drill going on. They do lots of hands on work. Last week they made orange sherbet to demonstrate physical change and today the teacher burned some paper to show a chemical change. I also played science bingo with them to help them remember some of their science facts. They loved all of it! My DS6 made paper last week and they are always doing some sort of hands on project. His class does flip its where they are timed for 1 minute doing addition on one side of the paper and flip the paper and they do subtraction on the other side. I've watched them do it and they all get a kick out of it. So all drill isn't bad. Maybe it is just how it is presented.

Well, I think it's about how it's presented *and* what the subject matter is. Would the kids have gotten as much out of memorizing the details of physical vs. chemical change as they got out of the hands-on methods? No way!

Math facts are the one exception that I can think of--maybe spelling words, too?--where drill is a truly useful technique for teaching elementary school-aged kids.

At higher levels, you might also need drill for anatomy or chemistry as well. But in elementary school, I really think rote memorization is rarely useful for anything but basic math facts and spelling words.

You do not learn concepts through memorization. It's just too low on the learning pyramid. Better to use higher level thinking skills...and current standardized testing (aka NCLB) means there's no reward for teachers to teach higher level thinking skills.

I think individual schools and teachers generally (though not always) try to do the best they can within the system. But I think the system is deeply, deeply flawed.

Hi Val,

For elementary math, besides division, there should be several other topics. The middle school math teacher I know says incoming kids are typically weakest in decimals, percentages, fractions. Ratios too. Algebra topics can be introduced early (my second grader is also doing some work in class), though it's an introduction. I like the idea of introducing math-talented kids to advanced topics to pique their interest and give them broader knowledge.

My son seemed ready for Algebra early and I worked him a little, because the school did not want to advance to beyong pre-Algebra. It benefitted him to review concepts he reviewed early (and forgot). It was frustrating that no one was/is willing to teach a young-ish kid advanced topics, but I do think there is a maturity required for multistep operations. Definitely introduce him to topics, but expect him to need a deeper understanding before mastery.

Just my opinion...

Here is a link to Ohio's website that contains materials from past proficiency tests. (For those who haven't figured it out, the 'OH' in 'OHGrandma' is where I live, not how GS8 gets my attention )

Since we're talking mandatory testing I thought it might be useful for those who aren't going through the testing to see what's on the test for different grades.

Chris

Just to chime in on the subject of drill and rote memorization, the most effective method may well depend on the preferred learning style of the particular child. According to Silverman's theory of visual-spatial learners (which, by her estimate, are about 30% of the student population), VSLs do not learn by drill and repetition, or rote memorization, but by seeing relationships, whereas auditory-sequential learners may need some repetition to reinforce learning and fare much better with rote memorization.
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appendc.pdf (or for a fuller discussion of VSLs and math, see http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/mthstrat.pdf and *especially* http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/algebra.pdf )

Incidentally, on the local evening news the other night there was a segment about recent improvements in math in a particular local school. The school had switched to Singapore math, which, according to the news story, required less drill and used more visual representations. I know I've seen discussions of that curriculum on these boards, and I admit I don't know anything about it, but I did find the news story interesting.

just my two cents--

I recently bought an 8th grade Spectrum Math book since my nine (almost ten) year old son might try to take the Explore test next year and I was curious about what 8th grade math looks like. I also noticed that it didn't seem very different from the lower level math books, so I now use problems from the 8th grade book when making up a math worksheet for him to do. He also uses Aleks middle school math online but he doesn't do it every day because he likes to do a variety of things. He likes doing multi-step word problems from a book called Calculation Capers for grades 5-8 and he did one on taxes the day I did my taxes. Some days we work on mental math which I think is good for a kid with handwriting issues. We have done math with decimals for years. He learned how to figure out 1 percent of a number by moving the decimal point years ago when we got a credit card that gives us a 1% rebate every time we use it that goes to him. It was easy for him to build on that knowledge. We also have a pre-algebra workbook that he sometimes uses.

He likes doing a variety of math problems. He absolutely hates a worksheet full of the same type of problems. I like it that he does this because I don't have to worry that he needs to review anything.

We just started reading a book called Painless Algebra by Lynette Long, Ph.D. but I think we will probably wait before really going more in depth with algebra because my son is more of a verbally gifted kid. He will probably learn all of the math vocabulary and how to spell the words correctly before he really gets into doing challenging algebra problems. I actually got the book for me because I was afraid that I wouldn't remember how to do algebra. He seems to like the book so far. He likes telling his sister that he is learning algebra.

Hmmm. Could you give me some examples of non-rote that should be rote instead, Dottie? Aside from the math facts and spelling that I mentioned--which pretty much just have to be memorized--I can't even envision what you could be talking about that would be better as memorization than concept. What higher level thinking skills are involved? Analysis? Synthesis? Or just application of knowledge to solve the problem? (which isn't a whole lot higher on the pyramid than memorization...)

As for the wacky word problems, I think those are always an issue for kids, but they're also the way math comes to us in real life, so I tend to take those in stride. I have a yard I want to fence and I need to know the perimeter, how much water does it take to fill this container, etc. It all comes with story-problem baggage. My DH hated word problems until he hit physics and realized that THAT was why they'd had all those words cluttering up his math books for all those years! LOL!