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    Joined: Aug 2011
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    1111 Offline OP
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    DS 4 1/2 did the WPPSI at the GDC this morning. He hit the ceiling on 3 of the sub tests and it was recommended we'd do follow up with the Standford Binet-LM tomorrow to make sure we get accurate results.

    The ceiling issues were all within the VERBAL part of the test.

    What can I expect from doing the Stanford Binet? Are the differences USUALLY substantial compared the the WPPSI?

    Thank you for your input.

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    I'm not an expert, but I believe many consider the SB-LM to be out of date. There are pages on the web with rationales for its continued use, but it seems to dwindle year to year and to be accepted fewer and fewer places. That said, I think it will probably help give you more insight into your son's intellectual makeup.

    A big difference you will see is that the SB-LM generates ratio IQ scores (based on estimated mental age), so the numbers will be higher and not based on standard deviations from the mean / rarity of scores. So it's a case of old apples, though with a bit of juice left, and newer oranges.


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    Hi! What did you think of the GDC? I'm considering doing WPPSI at 4.5 like you when DD3 is your son's age, or maybe waiting for WISC when she's 6. Curious to know what your experience was like! Get some rest tonight. smile

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    I'm not sure how the SB-LM can give you more accurate results when it was last normed in 1972.

    The differences are likely to be substantial, not because the "real" IQ is different between the tests, but rather because the LM uses a different method of calculating IQ numbers that modern tests don't use, and because a test without valid current norms doesn't give accurate numbers. The SB-LM generates wildly high numbers that are quite different than current test editions.

    Is there anyone besides the GDC still using this test?

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    1111 Offline OP
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    Berkeleymom, I really like the place and the people there. Very comfortable. And my son loved the lady that tested him. I feel confident knowing the extensive experience this place have with testing.

    The main reason I decided to test DS at this age was to get more of an insight into how his mind works so that we can approach schooling appropriately. He is entering Kindergarten early, in the fall. I might not had done it at this age had he not been able to focus so easily. He can very easily sit still for hours and focus on one thing. The test was lengthy (even though the tester said he tested incredibly fast) it still lasted about 3 hours. This included the achievement test too though.

    I would highly recommend the place for your DD!

    A question. What do the testers that DO NOT use the Stanford Binet-LM do for children that hit the ceiling on the WPPSI?
    Are there other tests with an extended norm that are commonly used? I am totally new to this so excuse my "amateur" questions...:-)

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    Originally Posted by 1111
    A question. What do the testers that DO NOT use the Stanford Binet-LM do for children that hit the ceiling on the WPPSI? Are there other tests with an extended norm that are commonly used?
    Both the WISC-IV and the SB-5 have extended norms-- and even without them they'd probably be a better choice for an advanced little one (less babyfied). The SB-5 can be given to your son at his current age, but you'd have to wait until age 6 for the WISC-IV. The DAS II is another option that can be given as young as 2.5; I'm not sure how high the norms go but I recall DS6 scoring in the 180s on a couple of subtests*, so maybe the higher ranges are just built in.

    * I'm not bragging (here of all places), just think it's relevant to the issue of extended scoring. DS was first tested on the DAS II by a school psych, and it went terribly badly-- she reported that he was curled up under his chair claiming he was having stomach pains for much of the test, and he scored so many zeros and single-digit results on some other subtests by refusal to comply that the results were incomplete.


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    Originally Posted by 1111
    A question. What do the testers that DO NOT use the Stanford Binet-LM do for children that hit the ceiling on the WPPSI?
    Are there other tests with an extended norm that are commonly used? I am totally new to this so excuse my "amateur" questions...:-)

    I so remember trying to figure this out when my children were younger and I really feel for you -- both the uncertainty and the excitement and the "uh oh -- my kids can't really be that unusual!" There simply isn't anything else that produces a real sense of where a kid with FSIQ >150 really lands, but that doesn't make the SB-LM a substitute. I cannot imagine why GDC still does this. I suppose it's profitable. I suspect that it makes parents feel better to have some out there number. It's truly concerning that anyone uses a 1972 test that one can buy on the internet as a "valid" IQ measure.

    "Numbers" from a test normed in 1972 aren't real numbers. It may help you to tell others than your son has an IQ of 180+, but it won't actually change where your son is or what he needs and it honestly has very little to do with your son's "real" IQ (all of which is of course a construct based on current definitions of IQ that will change over time and become irrelevant over time when what your son needs educationally matters much more than than the IQ number.)

    Tests are limited. This is frustrating. A child who hits multiple ceilings at 4.5 may or may not test as very gifted at 8 or 10 when most IQ tests are more stable. Or the child may test as far more unusual at 8 or 10 and have higher scores. None of those scores will tell you what your child needs in terms of educational environment. If your child tests multiple times on multiple measures over many years at crazy high PG numbers, the child is likely far more gifted than a child who had one subtest on one day that was >140. I know PG children in college at 10 and others in 5th grade. Some can focus and some cannot. Some have myriad other interests outside academics that take hours per day and some just want structured academics all day. Some spend their days creating art or fusion reactors or puppets or poetry and others focus on math and more math. Very smart kids don't look all alike and you have to make decisions for your child, not the number that your child scores. I found this quite challenging because my children score similarly but are not.nearly.the.same in terms of educational needs.

    I spent a year learning more about tests and what the scores meant and how to do extended norms on the WISC and learning whether achievement tests could really indicate that a child was 1 in a gazillion, etc., and what I concluded is that these are such limited snapshots. Scores can help you figure out a ballpark as a child with multiple ceilings is likely brighter than a child with an average subtest score of 12, but the details are so lacking. I hope the testing goes well and you get a good evaluation that helps you, but if the details change along the way, don't be too surprised smile.

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    1111 Offline OP
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    Thank you for that in depth explanation> I agree with you and have pretty much realized that it is just a number. You have to look at the individual as a WHOLE. I am sure many times the IQ number will not reflect the capacity of the child, and vice versa.

    I guess I have just been so confused with my son. Suspecting for a long time that something is going on with him. He wasn't like the other kids. I didn't even know what gifted was until out pediatrician brought it up a couple of years ago. It all then started to make sense.

    Why I want to test is to find out what RANGE of giftedness he is in. Not to get a specific number. It would be just as good to just get a range like MG, HG, etc. I know this varies. 145-160 being considered HG, 160-175 EG. Is this the same for all tests??

    Seems to me with the WPPSI a score of 143 for example, would be much more than MG?? And there wouldn't even be any EG kids since the max on the test is 160. I am just confused...

    Seems from what you guys have responded that the Stanford Binet-LM will have inflated numbers that are not true to his ability. Are these the old numbers? The numbers we as children would have received? I was never tested but my husband was and I have a couple of friends that were. I would assume they would have used the Stanford Binet-LM right?

    Sorry about all the questions, but I really appreciate the help and I am sure others benefit from your responses as well.

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    Have you read any of the articles on Hoagies about what is HG, EG and PG? This one gives an overview that you might find helpful:
    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

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    Originally Posted by 1111
    Seems from what you guys have responded that the Stanford Binet-LM will have inflated numbers that are not true to his ability. Are these the old numbers? The numbers we as children would have received? I was never tested but my husband was and I have a couple of friends that were. I would assume they would have used the Stanford Binet-LM right?
    Yes and no as to whether these are the #s we all would have rec'd as children. Are you familiar with the Flynn Effect? Essentially, if you took the SB-LM as a child and then took it again now (assuming that all was equal and your IQ hadn't changed at all over the years), you'd get a higher number now due to the Flynn Effect. If your child, taking the LM now, gets one number, were he the same child of the same ability in 1975 taking the same test, the number he rec'd would be lower. That's why tests are renormed. See: http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/flynneffect.shtml/

    I'd say that pretty much everyone other than the GDC would suggest a different test like the SB-V for kids who hit the ceiling on the WPPSI. I thought that they were working on extended norms for the WPPSI-IV as well, though, and that might be another option. He probably took the WPPSI-III, though, since I'm not sure that they're done with norming version four.

    I'd also agree with others that the IQ number alone isn't going to tell you the level of giftedness. Once you get to the tail of the bell curve, there are a lot of other factors that come into play in regard to the level of giftedness.


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