Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Help me identify options for DD9

For background, DD just turned 9 and just finished 4th. She skipped 2nd, had a great teacher for 3rd, and had a less-great teacher for 4th. We've got no formal testing, but she missed the DYS 4th-grade cut on the EXPLORE by a point; I'd anticipated that the achievement score would be the part she'd more-likely fall short on.

As I said, she had a less-great teacher for 4th grade - particularly for math. (DD told me today that her teacher scolded her for solving a problem comparing fractions denominated in 14th and 7ths by rewriting the second fraction in 14ths, because they were supposed to use whatever 7*14 is as the implied common denominator.) So we've been summer-schooling math in an attempt to break the bad habits she's gotten into, establish better fraction-handling habits, and develop some number sense. DD is not intuitively mathy, but she likes math.

Fifth grade math is taught in a self-contained classroom in our school - one teacher for all subjects, no ability grouping. We've requested a teacher who's good at teaching math, but there are only 3 teachers to choose from, so "good" is relative. Sixth-eighth grade math is at the middle school across the parking lot, with a dedicated math teacher and 2 or 3 ability levels. State law lets you test out of any class by passing a test in that subject with a score of 90% or higher, and out of an entire grade by passing the tests for each subject.

I'm trying to brainstorm possible options for the coming year, including options unacceptable to one or more of us. The ones I've come up with are:

- be a normal 5th grader and suck it up
- be a normal 5th grader and assiduously afterschool (DD suggested this one; she says school is less boring if she's got something to learn after school)
- full grade skip to 6th (possibly not within her abilities, since Social Studies in 5th is all US history, and we've intentionally done no work in that area)
- subject acceleration to 6th in math
- subject acceleration to 7th (pre-algebra) in math (a stretch, but likely not impossible)
- subject acceleration to 6th in science (with or without an accompanying acceleration in math)
- subject acceleration in some other combination of subjects (unlikely due to lack of kid interest)
- homeschool for a year, possibly with the addition of outside tutoring
- private school (multiple possible options, none of them ideal, and the late-in-the-game timing makes it more difficult, also unlikely due to lack of kid interest)
- online charter public through K-12 or Connections Academy

Anyone have suggestions we haven't thought of? We don't have the option of part-time school / part-time homeschool, due to state law.

[This is more commenting on the options you've got than offering new ones, sorry; I realise it's not what you asked for.]

Why do you say homeschool for a year? Just in order not to look beyond next year, or do you think middle school is going to be much better for her? (That doesn't seem to be what people say in general about US middle schools, but ymmv!) I think you may need to be looking a little beyond this year, just in terms of: is middle school something you think will give her things she needs, or something to be got through as fast as possible...

To clarify: to skip 5th entirely, and go to middle school in a few weeks, she'd need to learn the US history content of 5th in the next few weeks, is that right? Is that the only thing you're doubtful about her passing in the tests for skipping? How does she (and how does your DW) feel about that option?

Can she take both the tests that would let her subject accelerate to 6th in maths and the ones that would let her go to 7th, or do you have to commit to having her take one or the other (so that just missing the cutoff for 7th would leave her in 5th grade maths? or would they do the sane thing and put her in 6th in that case? how would it work?) Are you basing your estimation that she could go to 6th but is borderline for 7th on a careful look at the syllabuses? I don't know how it is in your state but I think this is the stage where there starts to be a fair amount of Stuff in US maths classes, i.e. it'll be more important than it was with her earlier skip to make sure she's been exposed to everything she needs.

If she doesn't full skip this year, do you think she will probably be doing it next year (skipping 6th)? One option would be (with or without subject acceleration for next year) to spend next year planning for her to full grade accelerate next summer, i.e. over the year she's in 5th, afterschool whatever's in 6th that she doesn't know now. Of course that leaves you in a fix if you decide not to go for a full skip next summer, or she doesn't get it - it leaves her in 6th learning a bunch of stuff she's already done in afterschooling. Hmm...

On the subject acceleration side, I don't think it would make much sense to subject accelerate her in science without also doing so in maths. At least in principle there comes a point where the science needs the maths anyway, so getting science ahead of maths formally requires a way to undo that later. And it's pretty clear (isn't it?) that one year of subject acceleration in maths is within her capabilities anyway.

I know I'm like a scratched record on this (that simile's not going to last, is it?!), but what are you doing for her problem-solving abilities in maths? Manipulating fractions is all very well, but it ain't maths :-) Don't let her off doing the fun stuff because she "isn't intuitively mathy"! How does she do if you give her a JMC paper for example?

LOL! If I weren't up for that, I wouldn't ask on the internet.


In order to not look beyond next year, for the most part, but I do think that middle school will be easier than elementary - you get more-interesting subject matter, from teachers with an interest in that subject, and limited ability to set your own schedule. Plus there's ability differentiation to some extent, and the other-parent rumors are that the ability differentiation isn't "more homework for smarter kids."


Honestly, there is no parent support for an additional full grade skip. There's no way to undo the skip (we've asked), and we're concerned that a second skip would limit her choices for college. (Either because the school would think she was too young, which is sort of what happened to me, or because she would feel unprepared to live semi-independently thousands of miles away from us.) For her first skip, she was well-qualified using the IAS with some conservative guesses for IQ and achievement; for a second skip, she'd be marginal even with a high guess for IQ and known-good achievement scores, entirely due to factors beyond her control, like height and skipping the transition year. DD vacillates between wanting a full skip and not wanting one.


We'd have to commit to taking both, so she'd take the 5th test, then if she passed it, take the 6th (probably the next day).


Yes, although the syllabus is not written in a particularly helpful manner. For instance, you might remember from elsewhere that I had difficulty finding examples of addition of fractions with unlike denominators, and looked at the pacing guides and sample end-of-year tests, only to discover that that skill is apparently not tested! Or at least, not sufficiently heavily weighted in the test that you'd get many problems - the sample tests are about the same length as the real thing, and contained no problems on that topic.

I've given her pieces of the end-of-fifth sample test, both sections I thought she could do, and sections I thought she couldn't. And she got all the problems I gave her correct, although there were a few she balked at, saying there was no correct answer or she didn't know how to tackle them - but when I encouraged her to give it a try, she did just fine.

The only reason I'd consider a placement in 7th, rather than 6th, would be to get pre-algebra, rather than basic math. I don't think it would necessarily be a better placement, though, either academically or socially.


Because of the nature of the testing, I don't know that we'd need to take that into account in deciding whether to test. I worry more about conceptual gaps - like the decimal multiplication problem she solved correctly, then asked whether you counted from the right or the left when picking where to put the decimal point. (Upon discussion, it was clear she did not understand why you moved the decimal where.)


No, because we don't really want another full skip. I think if she didn't subject accelerate for the coming year, she would for the next.


Agreed - and DD doesn't particularly want a science acceleration.

At least in principle there comes a point where the science needs the maths anyway, so getting science ahead of maths formally requires a way to undo that later. And it's pretty clear (isn't it?) that one year of subject acceleration in maths is within her capabilities anyway.


I have insufficient math background to figure out how to begin to tackle most of those problems, so can't scaffold them for her. And she's been underchallenged long enough that she's unwilling to attempt a problem that she can't figure out how to solve in a minute or two.

Err, what? You may lack confidence but you don't lack maths background! None of these require anything beyond about 5th grade maths. Look again...

That's the problem that needs to be fixed... But seriously, I think you'll find she *can* figure out most of these in a minute or two, if you can get her (and you!) over the "this isn't a familiar question type" hurdle. And getting over that is absolutely crucial...

My personal opinion is I would subject accelerate in math because it's the most repetitive of the subjects if you already know it.

This one sounds attractive as setting up for a grade skip later. On the other hand, there's no reason to delay a subject acceleration in math now, and she might be able to assiduously study up on social studies enough for a skip over the summer.

I'd try for this by cramming history over the summer. What's to lose? You could fall back to a subject acceleration in math.

I'd try for this at the very least, unless you firmly resolve to homeschool her next year. There's no point in stunting her math growth for a year, or even in having her completely waste her time in math class while afterschooling.

I bet this might make her really come alive, as long as you've prepared her well enough.

I guess this might work. I usually worry about increasing awkwardness with the social group unless it's on the cusp of a move or other change in circumstance. Here, I guess if you're considering a skip, the homeschooling year might help you prepare her much better than afterschooling-- you could probably cover multiple years' worth in all subjects in the same number of hours per day or less. And if she's to skip, it will shake things up regardless.

What I might do is get several irons in the fire-- request end-of-year testing at the start of next year if you decide to go for the skip, request the subject acceleration, etc., then plan to homeschool if things don't go your way.

LOL! Sorry - that's what I get for assuming I've looked at something before! The PDF comes up with the hardest problems first. That said, what I lack on the harder ones isn't computational power; it's "how do I start this." But yes, I think enough of those are accessible to her that it's worth giving them to her with plenty of encouragement.

I've skipped ahead and haven't read beyond colinsmom's post... (I'll return to add to my post if needed).

Connections is what I would recommend over K12 for gifties grades 3-8... reason being that they have effectively got a gifted pull-out which is the real deal with true ability-grouping and live instruction with peers, and has outside work (homework, essentially) that involves higher order literature analysis and synthesis.

K12 offers... hmmm... acceleration through the regular curricular offerings.

One other advantage that Connections would have for you is fluidity. Math is decoupled from the rest of the curriculum, so that would be an area of individual placement, effectively. She could effectively use the Connections program as a "bridge" to accelerate a year, and not have to actually "skip" anything. It would be superior to pure homeschooling in two ways: a) it retains a public school transcript, which makes the entire "grade-skip" discussion a moot one once you return to a local school, and b) while it can generally be completed by most GT kids in about 2-3 hours a day, it also strengthens the 'standard' skill set that schools expect, so homeschooling wouldn't worsen any extant asynchronies. (We found that was a real problem in homeschooling-- my DD could and did rely on preferred methods of learning and expression, which allowed her to leap ahead in some areas and lag in others.)



Compacting and accelerating like this is what we did for 4th-5th with my DD, by the way.

Adding:

It also doesn't mandate a skip (as in, a change in actual grade) since "placement" is a separate thing entirely with Connections. That is, a 7th grader can be taking a couple of high school classes with them and not BE a high school student, if that makes sense. I understand your concerns about a second skip. The Connections program would be a solution to a lot of your problems here, in my opinion.

The way our system is set up, if she tested for the skip, we'd be stuck with it. There's no provision for, "she passed the test but isn't going to take a skip." And we have no parent support (honestly, not from either of us) for a 4th-to-6th skip.


That's the only reason I'd push for it. I looked at the AOPS pre-algebra placement test, and I think she'll be able to pass it by the end of the summer - not that AOPS would be an appropriate math option for her. (I'd do that as a hole-filler once she covered the concepts elsewhere, if I were AOPS-inclined.)


She is already super-awkward. She's the kid who can't do sleepovers because she gets too lonely and scared to sleep at someone else's house. She's the kid who talks like an old-fashioned book, and is doing schoolwork over the summer for fun. She does sports, but not the sports anyone else cares about. She's extremely anti-religion in a part of the country where pretty much everyone is evangelical. And her reaction to feeling othered is to emphasize, rather than downplay, the stuff that's different. (Including things like calling people names in Chinese.)


That's kind of what we're up to - homeschooling is my last-resort backup (based on how our summerschooling is going). But we're getting to the point that we need to decide on acceleration, because it affects what we'd cover in summerschooling. (The last date for signing up for the test is 3 or 4 days before the test date, which is the first week in August.)

Thanks!

I asked the CA people about curriculum compacting back in February, and never got a very clear answer on that. (It's possible that it's too late to get in for the coming year - they say they need applications by 3/31 to get the inter-district transfer.) But it's good to hear that someone had a good experience with them.

They may not have been too clear on what you meant by the term...

and secondly, they may also have not been willing to put it in writing, since corporate tends to 'discourage' the practice. Of course, that goes out the window with local administrators who learn that they are dealing with a HG+ child. (Truly.)

My DD isn't the only kid like herself in the system (PG, multiple grade skips). There are about 8-10 of them in our school of 4K kids, and I know of at least a handful of them in other states.

They do (at least in theory) have a national GT specialist now. Have you tried calling locally as well as nationally?

A caution for the 6th math or prealgebra placements. Be aware of where your district is in adopting common core math standards. In our district, all kids coming out of both ordinary 7th grade math *and * prealgebra are being placed in 8th grade math, without an option to go into algebra.

Hopefully, other districts won't put this bizarre transition into place, but instead will do something more rational. However, if this were going to be the process in place for my kid, I'd consider carefully the impacts in the following year of placing my child in prealgebra.

That's not the case in our district. 8th graders can take regular math, prealgebra, or algebra I.

Academically, though, was she not even more out of step at that point? I essentially did a gap year in lieu of my senior year of high school, and IMHO the break didn't do me any favors, academically.

Since neither the child nor the parents are unequivocably in favor of a skip, I would not recommend a skip. However, I would definitely accelerate math by one year to 6th grade math. I would hesitate to accelerate to Pre-Algebra based on the info you provided (not intuitively mathy, didn't understand/know how/why to move the decimal points, can't undo a skip/acceleration, etc.). Although I am not in complete agreement with it, I can understand why school systems like mine would not allow an acceleration unless the student tested two years ahead. There also appears to be a cognitive jump from elementary math to Algebra so the concern is that even if she does okay in Pre-Algebra this year that she may have issues next year. On the other hand, Algebra in 6th would not be radical -there is a solid but small chunk of kids taking Algebra as 6th gtaders in our system.

Sorry, this is not much help -- I am musing more than anything as I am trying to figure out the math placement for DS for next year. I don't quite completely trust the assesments online (CTY, Aleks, etc.), which suggests that DS is ready for Algebra.

Yeah, acceleration decisions are tricky. I will say that "tests two years ahead" is a hard level of achievement to quantify - DD scored one point lower than an average 8th grader on the Math portion of the EXPLORE, so could be considered to test 3 years ahead (7th grade equivalent) by at least some measures. But if she'd been given the end-of-fifth test on that same date, I don't think she'd have passed with the 90% our state requires.


I remember being 9 or 10 (so slightly older than DD), and my dad trying to teach me some simple algebra. Based on the miserable failure that was, and how much algebraically-formulated stuff DD can do, I believe her to be significantly more mathy than I am. (Or I'm a better teacher than my dad is, which is entirely true. Or schools now introduce algebraic concepts earlier, which I also think is entirely true.) I think she'd do fine in Algebra after a year of Pre-Algebra, but she doesn't yet know all the material our district expects before you get to Pre-Algebra.

I'm unaware of any 6th graders taking Algebra in our district - it would require a double subject acceleration in math, and even a single acceleration is unusual. (That said, the district-level person who tested DD for her skip of second said once the testing was done that she thought she'd be seeing us again.)


I know what you mean. There's nothing on the AOPS pre-Algebra test that DD isn't familiar with, and I suspect she'd get a passing score if I gave it to her, but that's not the same as really being ready for pre-Algebra. (Certainly she's not ready for AOPS pre-Algebra - she's not in the habit of thinking that much.)

Thanks! I think the adults have narrowed down our preferences to subject acceleration to 6th in math (me) or assiduous afterschooling (her, although it's not clear what the year-after plan would be in that case). We're both in agreement that there appears to be little or no material covered in 5th that DD doesn't already know, and plenty of new stuff to learn in 6th.

In our district in the honors math, they take Algebra in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. I bought a Bright Kids math 5th grade workbook for my son, who just finished third grade- it's called Algebra. It looks like it's beginning stuff.

I was the one that voted for math subject acceleration as you said you weren't as comfortable with whole grade acceleration.

"I know what you mean. There's nothing on the AOPS pre-Algebra test that DD isn't familiar with, and I suspect she'd get a passing score if I gave it to her, but that's not the same as really being ready for pre-Algebra. "

This statement has me curious. Are you sure you're not underestimating her here?

DD learned algebra through Aleks. When she was 7 and in 3rd grade she finished Aleks Algebra 1. She was able to borrow a neighbor's Algebra text just to make sure she covered what they had learned and took an algebra final. They subject accelerated her into 8th grade honors geometry as a 4th grader this year.

I'm thinking maybe it's a confidence issue? If your dd can take an assessment that says she's ready for pre-algebra then why doubt it?

I always told DD algebra was easy. So she thinks it's easy.

I would subject accelerate first, but make sure it's at the right level. 6th grade could be too easy if she is beyond that and ready for algebra.

Because the subject acceleration went so well this year, they offered dd8 another grade skip. Skipping 5th (because here I think the attitude is that 5th is a filler year and 6th grade is when it gets more interesting).

So for you if the math acceleration goes well, maybe there is a possibility of another grade skip down the road.

I was also wondering that, but then this kind of issue:
does have me worried - unless it's an isolated problem caused by a teacher explaining it wrong, but even then...

How about a combination solution: subject accelerate to 6th, *and* afterschool. Let the afterschooling focus on nonformulaic problem solving, starting easy and ramping up as she gets used to being stuck and getting herself unstuck (or not being able to get herself unstuck and needing help, and that being fine too). Aim to be ready to start AOPS prealgebra about Christmas, and do it seriously, the way they intend - start with the problems at the start of the chapter, only read on after having a good attempt at them. If that goes well, test out of prealgebra next summer.

ETA: Of course, now that Alcumus includes prealgebra, that's the obvious thing to use - why not sign up (free) and do the odd problem with DD, one or two a day? Start by doing them really together, and shift into her doing them...

Yes! The "algebra is hard" mantra always perplexes me - although I think I do understand it, really. It's hard *if* the only way you solved arithmetic problems was by applying rules you'd memorised.

There is a very high level of variation in what districts call "algebra" now. With the shift to Common Core, it gets less clear. In our district, they are shifting the material from the class that used to be called "Algebra" to be included in the class called "Common Core 8"and the class called "Algebra" now contains most of what used to be called "Algebra II"-- but it is still called Algebra. It is an acceleration of the material into earlier grades/courses, but not an openly acknowledged one, that is very confusing for a lot of parents who have not dug into the curriculum.

DeeDee

I've seen her work exactly one multiplication-with-decimals problem on her own, so am extrapolating from there. The problem was 7.1 x 3.4

After multiplying 7.1 by 0.4, she put what she called a placeholder decimal between the tenths and hundredths columns (so one place in from the right). Then after she finished multiplying and adding, she ignored the placeholder, counted the places to the right of the decimal in the original problem, correctly arrived at two, counted two places from the right in her answer, and correctly placed the decimal point. And then asked me if you counted from the right or from the left, because she remembered her teacher having told her from the right, but she wasn't completely sure.

So she's capable of getting the mechanics right, but she has no understanding of why you do it that way. (We had a similar mechanics-vs-understanding issue when we were working together on factoring, and she was astonished that every item on the list of numbers that were factors of 30 could be constructed from the prime factors of 30. She was capable of accurately generating a list of factors, and of identifying the prime factors, but didn't "get" how those numbers were related.)

The AOPS pretest tests mechanics, not understanding. The course IMHO requires understanding. OTOH, I'm not sure that the standard public school curriculum cares one bit for understanding.


I think it's likely that we'd do at least some afterschooling. 6th graders can do MathCounts, too.


In our house, algebra is fun.

AFAICT, our district is moving to Common Core. There's a lot more algebra-looking material in the general math classes.

EPGY Math for grade 1 has very simple algebra problems. My 5yo daughter has solved problems such as

n - 3 = 5
n = ?

but I won't say she can do algebra until she can solve

2*n - 3 = 5

I wonder if presenting arithmetic problems as simple algebra problems helps students in a real algebra course later on.

This seems to be a trend in many math programs today, I believe for several reasons:

1. It encourages thinking about arithmetic operations in terms of parts to a whole, as well as in relation to inverse operations, which can have a helpful effect on cementing memorization of math facts as well.

2. It predisposes children not to fear variables and equations.

3. It impresses people, including many parents, when young children can "do algebra". I've seen some parents bragging on the basis of these types of problems.

I don't know how much the first two translate to increased ability when learning algebra later on, but I think lack of fear is probably helpful.

I wouldn't say DD had great understand either, but after a while of working with the mechanics the understanding kicks in. The public school curriculum is more about mechanics. Supplementing at home for more understanding.

I think any holes in their understanding can be quickly filled with some practice and discussion.

I tend to let my kids enjoy the mechanics of math and the understanding will come.

That's very similar to the questions on the end-of-5th test in our district, where it's not called Algebra until 8th or 9th grade. The exact question uses a table of "n"s paired with outputs, and asks for the formula that fits the table, where 2*n +1 is the proper one.

Going a bit off-topic, and IANAn educational theorist, but I think Bostonian's question would, in some circles at least, be considered a lot more challenging than the one you're mentioning. Yours can easily be done without an understanding of the "do the same thing to both sides" procedure (you ask "what's happening?" and it doesn't take much trial and error to see), whereas Bostonian's can't (so easily). All the same, if I took that definition of "can do algebra" then DS could do algebra at 4, before he started school! I'm not sure I really see that being able to do algebra should count as a milestone, however we define it - it depends too much on what algebra you mean!

Yes, it occurred to me after the fact that that was likely the case.