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Now, *that's* what I call a challenging problem. (where did they get that?)

I think I'll give that one to DS and see what happens

Mo

Oh, boy, does this sound familiar. It's code for "we're delegating our responsibility for providing an appropriate education level from ourselves to your child." And as anyone who has ever received basic leadership training can tell you, responsibility cannot be delegated... ESPECIALLY to a small child.

I had a lovely rant on this topic not long ago: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted...._attempting_to_transfer_.html#Post129509

There's no solution, because there are multiple possible configurations of the coins. Unless something is taught about the principles at work, this sounds exactly like a typical Everyday Math churn-through-whole-number-constructions problem, although at least it's not nearly as dumbed-down as some of the problems I've seen in our local Everyday Math program.

ETA: I'm not against all problems that get children to play with numbers to discover things on their own, by any means, but if the children here learn to just find a combination that fits the numeric relationships, without realizing that they're being asked to definitely determine a specific combination of coins as the answer, this is the sort of problem that could actually do harm IMHO.

And I just stopped when I got one configuration...I'm not an exemplar of the math talent that runs in my family. Sigh. At least my husband is fluent in math!

I actually kind of like that problem--as long as there is not supposed to be one right answer. It reminds me of DD's Sunshine Math, which we both liked, because it was logic more than math.

(Note--I did not actually try to do it!)

DD7 in 2nd grade this year had problems like the one Wren quoted but they were from a 3rd grade textbook (her school teaches ahead).

The issue with multiple solutions that I could see is that (no offense to elem. teachers) but some of them may take the answer out of the book and unless the book notes multiple solutions I could see my kid coming home and saying her teacher told her she was wrong at which point I would end up having to conference with them via email about multiple solutions in some nice way. I'm sure I would end up being tactless but sometimes teachers will go strictly by the book if they aren't comfortable with a subject. Kids at that age are likely to believe their teacher that they were wrong even when they did it correctly (just different)

FWIW based on what I saw with my older daughter, My guess is that they are getting the second graders ready to deal with the guess and check problems in 3rd grade. These are really easily solved by setting up systems of equations via algebra. But they show elem kids how to make a table and guess and iterate. Apparently, it can give them number sense in that they need to figure out which way to adjust their guesses. I worry it will put some kids off algebra later if they know they can guess.

I think most adults would throw up their hands on this one.


This was a beef I had with DD's math in the 1st grade gifted class... she was doing perimeter and area calculations for quadrilaterals and she hadn't even been given a chance to learn her multiplication tables. They wouldn't skip her to second because they were afraid of gaps, and this is the alternative??

Unless an additional constraint is assumed that there are no coins valued over a quarter, in which case there's only one solution. Depending on the rest of the worksheet, this assumption may or may not be valid.

There are no multiple solutions; there's only one correct answer, that it's impossible to tell what coins each has. Someone could elaborate on that by explaining why, but an answer with a single particular combination of coins that fits the numeric relationships of the problem is no more correct than an answer that no combinations fit those relationships.

So for a child who finds one of the combinations, they've done some valuable work, but not finished the problem. Any acceptance of a partial answer harms the student's ability to correctly understand the problem as framed, and in math problems I think it's very important to be precisely correct and to understand exactly what's being asked.

From that aspect there are multiple harmful aspects to this problem, assuming the teacher takes any combination that fits as a correct answer (or worse, only one of them):

* Students are encouraged in fuzzy, incorrect thinking about the call of the problem, when it could be a useful opportunity to develop critical thinking abilities
* Students are encouraged to quit easily after finding a seeming answer, instead of developing the ability to discern between a situation where they have to disprove other possible answers and when the first is good enough; in this scenario they'll learn to never even question whether they're being asked to find a single answer or any that fits
* A student may be called incorrect, when finding one combination of coins which fits and thinking she's found the answer-- when of course she would be incorrect, but given the wrong answer as to why
* A student may be crushed after feeling elated over finding a winning combo, only to be told that the real answer is "no answer can be given"-- though of course feeling gypped by a trick question, and adjusting to be more precise in one's thinking, is far better than the alternatives
* A student who actually finds the correct answer will almost certainly go unrewarded, as his teacher might say, "Hm, that's interesting" and mention it in conversation, but no changes in instruction will be made; worst-case, that student will be "behind" the class time-wise, and perhaps interrupted and not allowed to finish, as he works toward the correct solution instead of quitting halfway through with the "right" answer

I could come up with scads more blathery ways of explaining the massive harm from this innocuous-seeming little coin problem, but hopefully you get the idea.

No. Assuming that the coins involved are only quarters, dimes, nickels and/or pennies,

Stella could have four quarters and one dime, and Joan could have five dimes and five pennies,

or

Stella could have three quarters, a dime and a penny, while Joan could have one quarter, a dime, and eight pennies.