Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Please Help Me to Understand

Hello everyone and thank you for taking the time to read this.
I am new here and found this forum by googling my fingers off trying to understand and educate myself about my child's potential gifted abilities.
Recently there has been an article all over the web about a 4 year old girl (Heidi Hankins) joining MENSA. I did actually know what MENSA was so decided to read the article. I was surprised to discover that this child's testing score, media is regularly referring to her as "genius", and my child's test score (at age 5) are the same IQ 159. Though I have no idea if they took the same test.
My child was placed into gifted classes, and I wasn't too surprised by that. I have always known she was bright.
Of course, as a parent I was very proud to hear (and excited) that my child is considered over-intelligent by the test standard.
Now what I am trying to better wrap my head around, because I do not think I really grasped just what the scores meant, is how gifted are we talking here? How I understand it it, at some point there comes a fine line between gifted and LD. I mean to say, while one struggles to learn through a challenge, the other struggles to be challenged to learn. Either way, it is no easy road ahead.
In the article they referred to this other child as "genius", and said her tests scores (IQ) were one point away from Steven Hawking and Albert Einstein!?! this can't be correct?! Surely the likes of Steven Hawking must be off the charts?? like a 199 or something.
My child was tested using the Reynolds (RIAS) scale. There are a lot of abbreviations on the results paper and I am not understanding every bit of it.
Anything that anyone can break down for me, or help me to better understand would be so wonderful.
Are these types of assessment tests sometimes wrong? often wrong? and are they wrong to where they say a child is more advanced than they actually are?
To be honest, after my recent forced education into how potentially gifted my child might actually be, I have gone from feeling excited to more so fear and a feeling of, "I AM NOT QUALIFIED" I am reading so many comments/blogs/forum posts about high IQ tweens/teens becoming severely depressed. I want to do everything I can to keep the laughing, bright eyed, fun loving child through it all.... even through becoming aware of oneself as "different".

verbal Intell..... 154
nonverbal....... 146
composite intell...159 (%ILE>99.99;SEM=153-161, 90%confidence interval)

I would especially love to understand what the gibberish in the ( ) after composite is telling me? that there could be an error with the test?

"overall thinking and reasoning abilities exceed approx. 99.98%" ?! this seems pretty direct, but unbelievable?
There is also a mention in the paperwork results of a score for "motivation" This score appears much lower than anything else. Should I be concerned by that, could that be a sign of something more to come? Or this fairly common?

Thank you all for your time and help. I am sorry it is so long, but I so appreciate your time reading and responding. Especially if it can bring me a little peace of mind, encouragement, and education on the subject. I would also love to hear if others here share with their children their test scores, or the truth about being gifted. Obviously if in gifted they must have some clue, but like the child in the article, at some point (if not already) she will know exactly what her IQ is and what that means compared to others. Is this a good/bad/or neither thing for children?
thank you.

Welcome! You've come to the right place! Lots of people here have been right where you are now and are full of knowledge and help.

First, what your testing is saying is that with 90% confidence they can say that your daughter's scores on this test (the RIAS, which is a good test) are at or higher than 99.98 percent of the population. That's really high! It is very unlikely that she is not, at the very least, highly gifted. These scores would suggest that she is in what some would call the exceptionally to profoundly gifted range. These terms are somewhat ambiguous, though, and the way in which they are used is inconsistent. Sometimes IQ tests of the very young (less than 6) can be a bit unstable, but the score is not going to drop 3 standard deviations (45 points)to make her "average." Your daughter is what we like to call around here wicked-smart. Are her scores matching what you're seeing at home? Keep in mind, too, that your lens might be slightly skewed so you may not know what "normal" is!

Whether you tell your daughter what her scores are is a tough question. We've had discussions about this in the past, I know, so you will want to search for that discussion on this site.

Now, keep in mind that she's still the same girl you've known and loved and parented her whole life and you've been doing just fine so far, so try to feel confident that you can handle this. Besides, you're likely quite smart yourself and have an inkling of what a smart kid likes and needs to be happy. It's easy to get freaked out reading about giftedness and what that can mean as a child grows, but you can really only focus on the short-term and cross any other bridges when you come to them.

What is your daughter's educational situation right now and how is it working for her? If it is good right now, yay! Stick with what works unless it doesn't anymore. If, at some point, it's not working, you have lots of options from enrichment to subject acceleration (e.g., going up a grade or two for math) to grade acceleration to homeschooling. There is no one way that works for everyone. So much depends on ability and personality and peer groups. We have people here whose kids go to the public school, to private schools, to gifted schools, to boarding schools, and homeschool. Some of us have combinations of all these options. But try not to be overwhelmed by your options. Take your time and read and ask questions here.

Anyway, welcome again, and feel free to search discussions and ask as many questions as you have as they come up!

deleted by poster.... it was long and posted well out of order.

You're correct. The scores of Hawking and Einstein come from comparing their performances to those of others in their age groups, and the score of the 4yo is calculated by comparing her with other 4yos.

There's also the Flynn effect, which notes the changes on the general intelligence of the population based on factors like improved nutrition and access to stimulating materials. As general intelligence rises, tests have to be re-normed from time to time, or else they give results that are misleadingly high. I'm not sure there are enough 4yos taking IQ tests to give them an adequate sample for re-norming for that age group very often.


What this gibberish is giving you is a measure of just how accurate/inaccurate this test has been for your child.

%ILE>99.99 - Pretty straightforward, this says your daughter outscored more than 99.99% of her age peers.

SEM=153-161 - SEM stands for Standard Error of Measurement. It's indicating that the true score may lie somewhere within the given range.

90% confidence interval - Self-explanatory.

Overall, these numbers say you can be very confident in the results of this test. On a different test, on a different day, with your DD in a different mood, the scores will shift somewhat, but you should be able them to land pretty much in the given SEM range.


I do not have any intention of giving my daughter her score.

1) I don't want her using it as a social measuring stick among the gifted kids.
2) Based on the SEM and %confidence info discussed above, you can see that the number isn't particularly useful.

But otherwise, I'm completely open to my DD about the fact that she is gifted, and what that means. She already knows she's different anyway, so the information helps her process exactly how she differs, and how to deal with it.

Besides, the only accommodation we've been able to get for her at school is enrollment in a class that's openly labelled "gifted," so keeping it from her wouldn't serve any point.

thank you very much Dude! I think this is going to be a really good thing to have stumbled upon this site.

Hi, WorkingItOut. Ditto what others have written. There are only very rough estimates of the intelligence of Stephen Hawking and Einstein, and I am not aware of any actual IQ scores for them though they may exist on much older tests (incidentally, one gifted expert wrote that even someone like Einstein would probably have trouble hitting 200 on a modern IQ test).

There's no such thing as being over-intelligent.

Thank you all so much.
"there's no such thing as being over-intelligent"~ lucounu

This statement made me smile.

I wrote another response to the first reply I received, that one has not posted yet because of my newness here, but when it does it is long and contains a lot more detail.
I have been spending the majority of my morning pouring over information here. I have read numerous articles about giftedness, profound giftedness, and even PGG.
I am so happy to have landed here. = )

I am a little puzzled by some of what I have learned so far. I am reading about how the profound level of gifted often involves children who are learning academics at a rapid rate. For example a 6 year old learning algebra, or a 18 month old reading at a 3rd grade level.
I have not seen anything like this with my dd. I have noticed an uncanny ability to remember things. For example she recalls memories of her 2nd birthday party in detail. Or a comment that someone made in passing years back (when she was two) and she repeats it and I ask, "where did you hear that" and she will say, "don't you remember, a long time ago, such and such said it when we were doing such and such" and once she lays it out for me, I remember exactly what she is talking about. (well, most times anyhow)
DD also enjoy science shows, discovery channel, animal planet. Also reading book about (especially) earth space science. I recall her asking to go to the library for books about planets at age 3. She retained an awful lot about planets in a short amount of time.
She seems to understand or at least think about things from these areas a bit more than even most adults would. For example when she was 5 we were in the car and she heard the song by REM on the radio "it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine" and she asks me, "Mom what do you think they mean by, 'the end of the world'?" and so I answered the best I could explaining that different people have different beliefs and ideas about that. That some religions teach things, even older religions some different things, and that some scientists have theories. Some of these theories agree with some religions and some do not. (I have gotten accustomed to answering this way to many of her questions, first saying, "I don't know" then adding, "this is what I do know, and often no one really knows for sure")
Her reply to my answer was, "so you mean how some scientists think the world might end because the sun will someday grow so old it will die, and it might explode. If it exploded it might create a black hole, and a black hole would have so much power it would suck the Earth right in?"
A bit surprised, but I responded, "yes that is one theory"
to which she added, "but don't worry mom, that would be a really long time from now when we aren't living on this planet anymore."

And then just like that the discussion ended. LOL

Now I know this is awfully advanced thinking for someone her age at the time, but I also knew she got the idea by watching a show on discovery science about quantum physics and black holes. I suggested to my husband after that maybe we should think more carefully about which shows we let her watch in this genre. Simply because she does seem to get more of it than one might expect, and I would hate to have her (she isn't now, but at some point) worrying about life/death/humanity sooner than she needs to. However, I am not too convinced that monitoring her access to information is actually going to keep her from that. After all, she has a really good grasp on gravity, the tides, cycles of the moon, eclipses, and random things like that, that can be pretty hard to understand.

So, is she actually exceptionally/highly/profoundly gifted? Maybe just moderately/highly gifted? I wouldn't have thought there would be much difference between them all, but from all I have read here today, it seems like it is pretty important to understand that there are significant differences.
She reads really well, not sure how above level it is. She has an amazing vocabulary. Really amazing. She is good at math, but certainly not teaching herself to do Algebra. I do not think she can even do more than simple multiplication in her head. Which, I guess multiplication is a little above level for her. Although, I must say her level on concentration on a task or subject which does interest her is impressive. Impressive to the point that other have seen and commented to me about it.
I am just wondering if she is gifted, but not the kind of gifted I have been reading about all day. Or maybe she is and the environment has not been such to better enrich and encourage more development. Any thoughts?

Welcome, WorkingItOut! It sounds like you have a wonderful dd

Re sharing actual IQ #s with our kids - that's not something we plan on doing in our family. The # is only a #. I also feel strongly that it is our children's private information, and I wouldn't want them sharing it with others until they are old enough to understand how it might impact relationships or how others might react - because once they've told someone they can't take it back.

Your child is going to realize (if she hasn't already) that she is very smart or that other children don't learn as quickly as she does. There was a time in early elementary where our ds became easily frustrated when dealing with other people which as an adult, I could realize was due to their brains not working as quickly as his, but as a kid - he didn't have enough life experience yet to realize that was what was happening. So we did explain the bell curve to our EG ds and where his IQ in general falls on it relative to most of the people he will meet and talked a bit about how that might impact how other people learn or think compared to how he learns and thinks.

You also mentioned how extremely gifted intellect compares to LD in that it's a challenge to deal with. FWIW my ds also has a disability which causes him struggles with some academics in school (he's officially "LD" according to the school system). JMO, but the experience of gifted vs LD is similar in that both are outliers - the majority of our population is neither gifted or LD - but the experiences of living with each or parenting each - being gifted can be challenging, yes, but it is nothing like the challenge of being LD.

Re accuracy of IQ tests in young children - we've had two different experiences. Both my EG ds and my oldest dd were tested when they were 5. DS' scores have held up over time - and he's been tested several times over the years and with different types of tests. Our dd's scores, otoh, did not hold up and actually dropped by 20 points. I still wonder sometimes why there was such a large drop, but her overall academics and just knowing her - my gut feeling is the lower scores, for her, are closer to what's real. For me, the real clue is in knowing our kids well, and also watching how other adults react to them, particularly when they are small. We never paid much attention to milestones, but we knew our ds was very bright when he shared his ideas with us when he was very young. We knew our suspicions of how bright he really was when we watched other adults who didn't know him well talk to him

Hang in there!

polarbear

Hang in there! Yes, there will be times that it will be challenging raising your chi

maybe I should be considering more testing. UHG but something that helps to identify more specifically which areas are her strengths.

Here's my take on it:

The labels (PG, EG, HG/HG+, MG) are confusing and inconsistent, both in the way they're defined by various experts and in the way they're used. Ruf's Levels are even more nebulous. My recommendation is to discard the labels when making any decision on what to do for your daughter. Every child is unique, and very gifted children may be even more so in terms of educational and emotional needs.

There is no set group of expected milestones on anything for very gifted people; we're all over the map. There are certainly indicators sufficient to draw conclusions of giftedness, but no single necessary one. Thus playing Chopin sonatas with feeling at 3 could certainly lead to some conclusions as to ability, but most brilliant people, even perhaps most musical geniuses, won't have done that by natural inclination. Your daughter can be profoundly gifted and go on to great discoveries and contributions without having been a prodigy in anything; being a prodigy/wunderkind certainly requires a high level of giftedness but not the other way around. (This is why I have grown to dislike the term "prodigiously gifted", as it tends to lead to confusion.)

A lot of giftedness also depends, in my opinion, on drive and natural inclination to dive into topics of interest. This can be stunted by poor education, unfortunately. And of course a child can't dive deeply into unavailable information. The solution for that is easy today: books, computers, museum trips, etc. I personally wouldn't hold off on anything except for adult topics (sex, dating, etc.) as long as your daughter doesn't show any discomfort with the material. There are of course topics that would require more easing-in, such as WWII and the Holocaust; but in general I think it's a good idea to just let a child roam and soak things in early on.

There is something called impostor syndrome which can result from comparison to other gifted people or reports about them. I'd avoid it, as it's completely unhelpful. If there are indications your daughter needs something, just provide it as well as you can and move on to the next challenge. Don't worry about how she stacks up; worry whether she is fed and challenged.

I'd avoid if possible telling your daughter she's "gifted" specifically, and just how gifted. I'd do this for many reasons, including that you don't want to encourage perfectionism and/or laziness; and you don't want her comparing herself that way to others, because there can be bad results including a feeling of superiority that can get in the way socially. She will inevitably notice she's different, but you can discuss those differences in practical terms. And if you avoid specific discussions with her of levels of giftedness, you don't need to pin it down in the first place.

When discussing her giftedness with school admins and similar people, they will be even less well-versed on what levels and terms mean than you. Thus you will probably find yourself referring to hard facts (such as numbers and explanations from a tester's report, achievement scores with grade equivalents, etc.) more than using terms like "profoundly gifted". If those terms are helpful, in my personal opinion it's better to have someone else use them to avoid perceptions of intellectual snobbery. School functionaries and teachers tend to operate from an egalitarian viewpoint and coming off with an air of superiority can damage the relaionship; this is why it's so tough to interact with them, besides their sheer lack of knowledge about the very gifted.

Our star is according to my son too small to create a black hole, so you can tell your daughter to rest easy about that. It will only fry us to a cinder.