Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Is a skip really not suggested? IAS questions

Thanks, Dottie! Our initial request was a double subject acceleration in math (to 2nd grade math now). The school suggested the whole grade acceleration with an additional math acceleration (1/2 split).

I'm actually puzzled by the "low" vocabulary score. He doesn't have a small vocabulary, and he seems to have really strong skills in gaining new words. It's listed last in the subtest scores. Considering how many math problems he must have solved, I might just chalk it up to being tired. He missed recess that day because of the WJ testing, so he worked at it for over 90 minutes. But if he really doesn't have as big a vocabulary as I think he does, then I share your concern. Vocab on the WISC-IV was a scaled score of 15 (95th percentile).

From where I sit, it looks like the test scores indicate that he's well beyond the reach of differentiation in everything in the kindergarten year, but not quite "ideal" for moving into first immediately. On my now several readings of the IAS (1st ed), it seems as though there's a wide gap between kids who can be effectively served with differentiation and those demanding a skip.

Oh, thank you Dottie for that thoughtful piece about the "down the road" topics to consider. We did skip our son from middle of 1st to middle of 2nd, and now that he is in middle school, I am having the slightest regrets.

Perhaps most importantly, I'm wondering, "What was the point?" A single grade skip did not make school that much more challenging. Only in the very shortest term--perhaps a month or two were challenging! Then it was still all pretty easy for him anyway. I think once a kid fills in whatever gaps they'd have in doing the skip, if they are truly gifted, regular school is simply not going to be particularly challenging.

So, given that nothing would make school as challenging as ability-grouping would, I can't say I saw a big benefit. So the downsides:

* Yes, sports. My son really does enjoy sports, and he is pretty good at them. Not in a super-star, will-get-recruited-to-a-Division 1 university-kind-of-way, but at a level that if he was playing in his original grade, he would be in the top 15%, and probably LOVE that. Instead, he's probably just a bit above average in his current grade. One year of physical development--especially when one takes puberty growth in to consideration--makes a HUGE difference. Sports are not necessarily the center of our world, but if your child likes them, there are SO many positives to being involved. As of now, when I look towards him being in high school, I think it is a big "if" whether he will make the high school teams that he'd want to be on, whereas if he stayed in his grade, it would be no question.

* Dating: not just, as Dottie mentioned, about their opportunities (looking younger than the girls in their grade), but also being exposed to stuff perhaps before they are ready, or need to be ready. I'm somewhat horrified to discover some of things going on in my town with 8th & 9th graders, so an extra year away from that would be a good thing in my mind. I think these issues are the ones that trouble me most--I am in no hurry for him to grow up extra quickly on these types of "sophistication" topics!!

* I hadn't really thought about the academic competitions, but of course this is something to think about! For example, I think for so many of these kids, their vocabularies develop so much on their own, through their reading. An extra year of that makes a difference!

* But it isn't all about competition, of course. It's about fitting into a happy place for you. It is just that I think it is important to think of that place beyond elementary school. I am also not sure I fully regret my decision--I probably would do it again, given the chance--but I would be FAR LESS BLASE about it!!! Middle School has made other issues apparent, that I seldom see addressed on these forums.

Well, there is a difference between 'soul-sucking brain-crushingly' bored and 'really, quite bored.'

To be honest, neither sounds that great to me. As kids get older, they are more easily able to deal with mild, intermittient boredom, and I do think it's fine to expect a bit of that as part of the overall good package, just so kids don't get the idea that they are so fragile that everything has to be perfect at all times.

But for sure, in the ideal world kids would get to do their academic learning right alongside with other kids who are their same age and same zone of proximal development.

I have no idea how to do that in small towns, but once the population gets dense enough, I don't see any excuse not to cluster group or school within a school kids with unusual zones of proximal development.

For us the skip was really helpful, but it traded the problems of a PG kid for the problems of a gifted kid, and that left a dry sad taste in my mounth. I feel lucky that we were able to undo the grade skip once it became clear that it was needed due to the 2E issues.

((shrugs))
Grinity

I am humbled by the time you all have spent in trying to help out a stranger in such a tough decision. Thank you.

FWIW, I skipped 3rd with an additional math acceleration. I asked my mom, since I had the perception that maybe they shouldn't have done it. Her response was that the only thing she wished had gone differently was that it happened in kindergarten when it was clear there was a problem.

My husband's parents turned down a request from the school to skip him over 3rd grade. In consulting with my MIL, she says that had they would have done it in kindergarten if the option had been available. She felt 3rd was too late.

*Sports: Sadly, school sports here are so competitive that kids can't make any team unless they join elite travel teams by 3rd grade or so. While we're contemplating a not-as-elite soccer team for DD next year (for 5th grade), these teams are not compatible with my family's priorities. By not red shirting my kids, they're already largely cut out of this. It really makes me sad. I'm thinking we're going to be more of a marching band family.

*Dating. So you're saying I can't ostrich this issue?

*Valedictorian. I was in the top 5% of my graduating class (elite all girl's college prep, >50% now have an MD, JD or PhD). So I'm struggling to see this as an issue. (Yes, I know I'm one anecdote.) Indeed, high GPA is as much a function of executive function as outright smarts. I'm thinking at this point that keeping him engaged in the learning process will set us ahead in this regard. Another thing for me to think through is that he will also be having college credits by 8-10th grade if he maintains on his math trajectory based on how how we plan it out. (There's a route to calculus by 9th grade with the skip --8th without-- in the district if we so choose to pursue it, plus the principal has already said that he anticipates having to do additional accelerations on top of the district's 3 compacting options.) Tea leaves anyone?

*Competitions. Interesting. I hadn't contemplated that one. We might have to ponder how important we see that. For the 6 year old I've got right now, he's more a Deep Springs College kid than a Harvard kid. That being said, I am in my current career in part because I won a math contest at Expanding Your Horizons (after attending one of the geekiest colleges on the planet). (Sidebar, anyone with a middle school daughter should seek EYH out.)


Grinity, yeah, cluster grouping seems like a no brainer for this school. Each class in this rich neighborhood has 120 kids! There's plenty for a high performing/gifted cluster class. That seems to be actively discouraged from the school board on down.

I think our primary, driving factor will be to keep him engaged enough in the learning process to maintain a healthy self-concept and healthy approach to school. We see him slowly extinguishing now in the second half of his kindergarten year.

It isn't too late, just less optimal than earlier. For multi-skip needing kids, 'adjustments' have to be made all down the line.
Agree, Agree - I think this gives you your answer now - no point in worrying about what might be lost when there is something palpable being lost right now. I think that in a district that has compacting options for Calculus in 9th grade as a regular thing that a single skip is likely to help quite a bit. Even without clustering, your local neighborhood schools seem ready for bright kids. (Oh yeah, it was the Principle who suggested the skip in the first place, right?)

For us, this 'healthy relationship with learning' was the main guide, and even though there wasn't anything that we could do to hothouse DS's EF skills to where he could compete with kids a year or two older, the attempt to do that was enough to make him a EF success when placed with bright agemates in a 'discussion heavy' academic environment. And it is sweet to see DS have the kind of positive academic feedback that he's always yearned for. First he got praise for 'baby stuff' and didn't get increased self-esteem, then finally he had to really work, and didn't have the EF to do well enough to get that praise and positive feedback, so, again, no increased self-esteem. Right now he's in the sweet spot, having big enough challenge to both intellectual skills and EF skills, plus extracurricular fun, and lots of needed social learning - so there is hope. The key is flexibility........

Smiles,
Grinity

On the topic of sports, there are opportunities for that outside of the school environment, where all the kids are grouped by age and/or ability, without respect to school grade.

My DD does soccer (age) and gymnastics (ability). We looked at putting her in softball (age) when soccer winds down, but we found out this league is famous for its psycho parents and coaches.

Dude, community soccer here is the strangest thing ever -- it goes by grade. Elite soccer goes by U(age) systems. But yes, for most things I'm aware of, out-of-school sports goes by age or ability. And again, he's coming out to be a more individual sport/chess/music kid than team sport kid. Certainly things can change, of course.

Grinity, the compacting options are maybe counting a few flocks of chickens before the single egg is hatched -- these are proposed options right now before the school board. Only one is fully established. There will be some massive scheduling problems/impossibilities with at least one of the proposed options.

Yes, the principal suggested the skip, and he has said in no uncertain terms that DS' math talent needs to be nurtured. The school psychologist has recommended against the skip, but for the subject acceleration.

DS got the whole family's executive skills. Seriously, he drained all mine during pregnancy and took them for himself. I'm genuinely not concerned, especially since the parenting habits have been established on his older sister, who got none of those genes.

With the principal in favor of the grade skip, I'm guessing you'll get it, and I wouldn't let the school psych's opinion worry me too much - but fwiw, I'm coming from a place of having not-so-great experiences with our local school psychs! Before your meeting, think through all of your reasons for wanting the skip, think through the reasons the psych will put up for not doing the skip, and rehearse what you will say in response (polite but firm responses). We've found in advocating for our ds that just standing firm when a school staff person is attempting to intimidate us or push a perspective we strongly disagree with often works. If you want the skip and run into a brick wall with the psych, I'd ask the school for an outside private eval with a different psych.

Good luck!

polarbear

My dd13 is in a somewhat similar situation as Dottie's ds13, but he's a tad younger and probably a good deal brighter . Mine started K as the youngest in grade with a bd that just made the cut. She skipped later (5th), but probably should have sooner b/c it had gotten to the point where her work habits were truly suffering and she was spending a good bit of her school day tutoring other kids.

Mine is also now in 9th grade. She was 12 at the start of the year, too, but turned 13 not too long after this school year started. As a girl, and a girl whose sports interests are really atypical (she's open water SCUBA certified, for instance, but doesn't do team sports), that hasn't been an issue for her at all.

We have seen the academic & talent search competitions issue. She has still rec'd awards for her grade in talent search and won a regional writing competition last year for her grade, but I'm pretty sure her awards would have been highest honors or high score vs. honors if she had been 1-2 grade lower in placement. None the less, I can't see placing a child inappropriately in order to increase her odds of winning academic contests.

While she is a later developer, she has grown tremendously over the past three years and I'm quite sure that she doesn't stand out as younger than the other high school freshman. Re dating, she did have a 17 yr old boy ask her if she was 15 or 16 this year. Fortunately, when she told him she was 13, he was wise enough to realize that she isn't dating material. I suspect that it is more of a problem for boys to be younger in terms of dating possibilities in high school. For girls, it is more an issue of not getting involved in dating relationships where there is a power differential due to age differences.

We, too, did not find the skip to put dd in with a group of peers in and of itself. The other kids are not HG just b/c they are older than her. She still has some significant frustrations with others' work ethic, cheating, reasoning processes, etc. In her strong subjects, language arts in particular, I can probably reasonably say that dd has only had two or three years of her entire schooling experience where she'd had a teacher who has taught her anything at all.

It is still better than the alternative and the sheer quantity of work that she's experienced post-skip has done a lot for her in terms of learning how to manage her time. She has the coupling of lower processing speed and a school system that equates rigor with quantity especially in middle and high school.

lol! I was thinking the same thing, but when you get HG and PG people together, I worry about children with disabilities b/c there may be too many atypical genes in the mix!

There are certainly areas where my dd is learning. Taking the 10th grade science course along with the 9th grade one this year, although it made her schedule very heavy, was a good thing b/c she feels like she is learning a good amount in that class, for instance. Her main frustration has been in the language arts realm where learning has been limited for most of her schooling experience or more related to stuff she would have picked up on her own w/out going to school.

Language arts subject acceleration is really almost never offered. For kids who are really strong in math, there is always the option for subject acceleration in math on top of the grade skip which can better meet the needs of a kid for whom that is a major strength. My dd has been fine with the year acceleration in math, but really doesn't need to subject accelerate further there.