Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Wisc IV ??? scoring, re-test, poss 2x exceptional

Could this be because he is trying his darndest to make his letters perfectly? My DS7 wrote slowly for a long time because he was trying to make his letters "the way they look in books" and, obviously, this was a painstaking task! Or, do you think that your DS has some other handwriting difficulty that might be improved with some extra practice and/or OT?

(In first grade, my DS realized the other kids were writing very messily and his writing devolved into a quick hurry of scribbles that allowed him to work quickly on a less-than-challenging assignment. Basically, he looked around and realized that handwriting was yet another thing that he didn't need to pay attention to. No more perfectionism there! :))

Thank you all, again.

As far as handwriting goes, he scribbles and hurries to get as much down as possible. He is VERY verbal, and that often translates to lots and lots of writing from the many thoughts, some tangential, that he has all the time.

He keeps a little notebook with him, and he's always writing in it. Pictures & plotlines for a cartoon series he says he's working on; notes about what he ate that day, or who he played with, ideas for Lego towers to build in the future, etc.

A lot of it is nearly illegible to me, but there certainly is a lot of it. Spelling, for the most part, is not a problem.

He's a fantastic speller, and was getting extra spelling words each work, at an advanced level. He missed 1 word all year, of the 15 given to him every Friday, every week, for a year. He spelled it right, but the a looked like an o, so she marked him down and told him to write neater next time so there would be no confusion, when he explained. I agree with her decision.

He got pull-outs for advanced reading, writing, and for a book discussion group the librarian runs once a week for 5 kids from Grade 2. They'd all read the same book, then take turns leading a discussion of it. They each have a notebook for this, where they'd write details, quotes from characters, their thoughts, pictures of what they thought characters looked like "in real life", if they existed, etc.

he reads at a Grade 6+ level.

He is allowed lots of free-choice, self-led discovery and online work (Starfall, MathMasters, Fastt Mast) each day in his classroom--all assigned or allowed to him and maybe 2 others in his class (and those two others are his best friends), when they finish their in-class work on whatever subject.

He and several other Grade 2 kids wrote a newsletter about Space, the Universe, etc, which was published for his schoolmates (this was s pecial project he did with the school's director and 5 other kids).

He wrote and read a speech he gave for Jane Goodall when she was there, about her Roots and Shoots program, etc.

Everything was suggested by, or just set into motion by the school or his teacher, and I generally became aware thru my child when he would tell me, or thru the teacher, when we would meet up at school (I volunteered there, and sometimes in her classroom).

He generally does very well in school, and all his grades are at, or above, grade level expectations. I don't think it's thinking, or thought processing that is the real problem for him. Or even writing.

He can write so clearly in cursive. And, if he writes slowly, his printing is great, too.

I wish he cared enough about math to try harder there--he is at grade level, but his teacher said she thinks if he would just try, he could be brilliant at it.

Not sure if it matters, but he was taught using Every Day Math at his last school, which I and lots of other parents loathed, and I am wondering if that could be part of the math issue.

As far as working memory in real life, yes he has issues there. But he can remember what his peds dr said to him in her office five years ago before we went over seas, word for word; and he notices when people get their hair cut, or they have lost weight, etc, even if they look the same to me when we run into them.

He also told me he remembers lying in his crib when he was about 2 at our old house, and looking out his bedroom window, and described very accurately to me what was there. Almost grass blade by grass blade. It was actually a bit eerie, to me.

He has always had issues with forgetting, being late, etc. He can be very disorganixed, but with other things so anal, it drives me nuts.

He dawdles and daydreams, a LOT. He is very imaginative, and creative. He talks non-stop. He hums and sings and wigles while he works.

He tries to direct the other children to do what he wants, and he thinks his way is best, in group settings with kids.

The reason we asked for a meeting with the teacher, and as a result of that meeting, for the testing (6 months ago), which we thought we had to do through school (a mistake; we didn't).

We asked because we felt he was bored a lot. He said so. And he was bringing home books the teacher gave him to read, that were way below his demonstrated level of ability--and then she admitted she told him he couldn't take certain books (Star Wars, Harry Potter, Percy Jakson, and others) out of the library when
the kids had free choice or free reign to pick what they wanted. She also hates Halloween, and would not allow her kids to celebrate that in her class, or talk about it in her class back in October.

He was having issues with bullying (verbal and physical) w/two of the bigger kids in his class (not while in class, apparently, only on the playground), at the same time.

So in October, I emailed and asked if we could meet after school one day to discuss all the above.

We dealt only with the bullying then, and for several months and meetings thereafter. He was the victm, they were the aggressors, and one almost got kicked out of school over this, in the end. BTW, never allow agree to peer mediation between your child and their bully/ies. Those kids went back at him harder and more slyly than ever, after every stupid peer meeting they had.

But once another kid they trifled with ended up with stitches, things did get better for my son, because the fall out was, in the end, they finally believed my warnings that these 2 were trouble, and that someone was going to get hurt. Suddenly, they doubled the student volunteer monitors on the playground, and those volunteers got more training in HT recogmize bullying, etc.

We finally got to the testing issues and other things, in late April.

Her concerns then were that he dawdles, takes too long to write, or change his clothes for PE, or his shoes thrice daily, when they had to change to go in or out of the building (in Europe the kids wear slippers only in class/inside the school); that he talks too much/asks too many questions which she felt was disruptive; that he is not very good at "assimilating" in groups; that she thought he was not trying hard enough at math, etc.

We had him speak to the school's PhD psych and counselor about the bullying and the other issues, and some changes were made to his day/work to give him more free choice. And he was then allowed to choose his own books, anything he wanted, from the library, too.

ABut then, he was asked to write a manual for the psych which teaches other kids "like him", whatever that means, how to survive second Grade, which prompted my asking for another meeting w/the teacher and the psych, which eventually led to my being here, today.

The psych we saw 2 weeks ago for testing, was off-site and is not affiliated with this school.

So, this is the first time we've had an indication he has significant issues or deficits (if the tests actually in the end up saying he does).

My son may have ADD---not any H in any ADHD spectrum, though.

I am coming to the conclusion for many other reasons, though, they he may also be gifted.

And possibly, both things.

Thanks to all, again!

Sometimes kids with disorder of written expression (dysgraphia) get overlooked because they can *draw* beautifully, and given enough time, they "draw" their letters instead of "writing" them-- using, in effect, their art skills to compensate for a language-and-motor deficit.

Kids who do this tend to wear themselves out on writing tasks, so as they advance in school it becomes more of a problem.

HTH, just something to watch for--

DeeDee

Bookie,
Whew! What a few years you have been through. Glad to hear that the bully issue was resolved. My son has been through very similar - except his 'peer mediation' was with adults - same result. And yes, it took another kid needing stiches before anything was done. Apparently the victim must be a totally innocent lamb before action will be taken - my DS would never stand for being seen as a lamb, it just doesn't sit well with him.

I think the only rule that works is not allowing the 2 children to be physically within 10 feet of each other.

This is the deal - you son is gifted - no doubt about it. He is over a standard deviation beyond the gifted cut off in most places. So that makes him very very unusually gifted. This explains why your school did everything 'right' with the pull outs and special projects and we was 'still bored.' Some schools can get very defensive about this - afterall - there approach works for 100% of their bright kids and 'X=very high number'% of their gifted kids, so 'what's wrong with your kid? We already tried what works for other bright kids and it didn't work?!? What do you want from us?'

Your school - on the other hand - seems to be genuinly open to trying to give your child 'more.'
This explains the 'disruptive questions' -

He may also have ADD, maybe not, it is very hard to tell - he is surely a slow poke, as my son is. This isn't a crime, but it can get irritating on a day to day basis.

If I had it to do over, knowing what I know now, I would teach my son a simple version of 'Fire Breath' (Breath in quietly through mouth for a steady count of 6 - hold breath for 6, exhale for through nose for 6) repeat 3 times. After he got to where he could do it automatically, I would ask him to do it before the starting tasks that usually go slowly around the house, maybe making it scientific by measuring how long it takes to do each task with and without Fire Breath. I do this now to 'rev myself up' for things when I'm feeling pokey slow. It seems to me to work, and I have no idea if it does or doesn't, but it's comforting to feel as though I have a better controller to face situations that I have no control over anyway. If Fire breath doesn't help him, perhaps the idea will work as a model of 'what else might he like to try?'

anyway, I'm optimistic that your school will keep trying to find ways to feed his gifted side. Good luck!

Grinity

DS#2 (12, 7th gr) has similar scores and is 2E. He was also diagnosed with central auditory processing disorder, which affects his written expression. We have worked *hard* on punctuation this summer, and he still doesn't have it mastered.

As a school psychologist myself, I'm not sure I'd recommend you ask for more testing from the psych. I agree with the commenter that these index scores are more reliable and valid than individual test scores.

Both of my g/t sons had poor motor output at 8, and by 6th grade had better handwriting than their peers. So in one sense, I'd work with him on it but see if he doesn't develop out of it.

The relative weakness in memory, combined with the motor, can be tough for kids. I worked for a charter school in which practically every kid had this profile. I could imagine their neighborhood schools' teachers saying, "He's just lazy," or even, "He's average," while their parents said, "I know my child is smart!".

I am less opposed than I used to be to looking at ADD. Certainly I benefit from my 3 cups of coffee per day! I have been giving DS#2 a gingko/ginseng combination the last year or two.

Let me end with a HUGE endorsement of the helpfulness of a good occupational therapist. Evaluation and intervention.

Good luck with your smart guy!

Well, we finally had "the meeting" w/the psychologist. Good and bad news.

He has ADD-type features/behaviors to a significant degree, but she feels that meds are not appropriate for him, and did not officially call it that.

She is calling his poor motor control/poor handwriting, etc and distractability issues and inability to control bodily movements by these names: dysgraphia & mild dyspraxia.

She says he definitely needs that OT eval, which we plan to do. School starts tomorrow, so once the first week is over and he is settled in, we will see.

He had several more tests than I thought; W-J, Wiatt, etc.

He is not considered gifted, or profoundly gifted, on all of them, apparerently---only on Wisc IV, and only if you use GAI and not the FISQ.

He just misses the cutoff on the other tests by our US school's hard 130 IQ definition. He's close 126 on one, and 124, but not where he is on the Wisc IV, using GAI, looking at 136 and 144.

I am not sure if he will qualifiy for G&T back home, when we return to the states next year. I am checking into that.

On one test, he "maxed" at 160 in two areas, but again, did so poorly on the processing/memory sections that she almost invalidated the test results (it was either the WJ or WIATT; still waiting for the written report, we only had the follow-up discussion/meeting).

She feels he is profoundly gifted in VCI/Perecptual reasoning areas, but needs significant help in other areas (memory, speed, executive function) to be able to display that ability.

She said he is one of the brightest kids she has ever tested, and one of the sweetest, and has never seen a kid that age so verbally articulate on so many different subjects. She said he had something to say about everything (we know! we know!), and what he said was making "deep connections" to the greater world.

But she did also say he needs to be reigned in re: verbal diarhhea/distractability/inappropriate behavior, and that he needs to be "conditioned properly" and given tools to do that. He needs to be taught a new script to use when frustrated and impatient, or bored, to self-govern and tone down his overexcitablilities, to help him do his best.

She thinks his anxiety level is sky-high, and suggested have in a psych consult to see where/what that is all about; she said regular psycholtherapy sessions w/ a counseling psychologist might be very helpful. She thinks that anxiety could lead to existential depression and we need to watch that carefully.

She thinks physical activity, more playdates, after school sports/activities, and the OT, plus our role-playing w/him, showing proper behavior to model, are some things we can do right now.

So far that's it. We will re-evaluate w/her in the Spring, before going home to the states or sooner, if school reports and/or performance warrant that.

Worried about him "missing" the hard 130 on several tests, but happy to know he is doing very well in some areas and, according to the school, with whom we discussed this, will still get what he needs/was already getting for advancements in his high ability areas while we're here; and maybe we can transfer that with us to the US, when we gome home next year.

We discovered there is a G&T parent group serving our part of PA (Adams Township, Butler County, Mars Area Schools), and I am going to proceed on the assumption that he is gifted, and try to join. The schools there, since we left the area almost 5 years ago, have created a G&T plan and implemented that to some degree, and we hope we can get him involved, based on his ability, testing and grades here.

Thanks to all who helped me thru this. Still trying to digest and make sense of it all.

Bookratt, I don't feel at all expert enough to advise you, but until someone else more knowledgable comes along - The WJ and WIAT tests are achievement tests NOT IQ tests, the WISC tests IQ / potential, achievement tests are to see what is being done with that potential. It is not surprising, with un-remediated issues like your sons that his achievement is not currently in line with his IQ.

My own DD has a huge yawning gap between her WMI and other scores (which are not as high as your sons). For us OT picked up a number of issues. We did a course of OT treatment, DD has swimming lessons, piano lessons and is on a very strict elimination diet. I feel like all of these things have really helped her a lot. But not enough.

After much recent reading I think that she almost certainly has ADHD inattentive type (ADD) and possibly also dyslexia and ideational dyspraxia. I really wish that when the ed psych who evaluated her 2 years ago said "At first she seemed to have classic inattentive ADHD, but then shew as able to concentrate on some things so she doesn't really" that we had not taken a huge sigh of relief, but instead had pursued it further and had a definite diagnosis from a developmental paed or similar. I feel like we could have done more for DD than we have.

Two friends have started their sons on medication for inattentive ADHD in the last month and both boys beg to be allowed to take the medication on the weekends because they themselves feel so much better. Both parents have cried when they talk about waiting so long because they thought not being diagnosed or labelled and not medicating was the right thing to do.

My point is not that your son does have ADD or ADHD, or the OT won't be enough. I just wish that someone had said to me 2yrs ago that once ADHD has been flagged as a possible issue it is really, really worth exploring fully with someone truly expert in teasing out what is going on developmentally with your child. And given that he is also gifted you will need to choose your professional carefully.

Thank you, mumofthree.

We won't ignore the possible ADD. We do want to get to the bottom of this, to help him.

We have been reading up on 2E kids; talked to his Peds from birth in the US--who incidentally would not refer him out for ADD testing last year. We will see her on our home visit at Christmas; will send his report to her as soon as we get the final copy from the psychD here.

We'll do the OT eval + set up an appt for counseling evaluation here, too. If those point to ADD + meds being needed, we'll try that. But only after seeing an MD here, which is required in this country to get meds for ADD. It will still help us go that route sooner than seeing his regular Peds in the US in December.

I don't want him to give up, or to fail. And I won't give up on him, either.

Just worried that no matter what we do, it might not make a difference when we get back home.

I don't think he can hit that 99 percentile in all areas, as needed for continued G&T here if we stay on next year; that standardized achievement testing is here in Grade 3, in just weeks.

And he hasn't met the hard 130 cutoff here via testing, so that excludes him from G&T if we move home, instead.

No vouchers in our PA county, Butler, back home. And we cannot afford to move to the next county over for several years yet, until the housing market fully rebounds.

Catholic schools in our county do not do G&T; they SAY they do, but I've looked into them. They do NOT. They do have smaller classes, but that's not G&T.

I just do not know what we are going to do. I was hoping if he could get G&T declared here, it would follow us and we could apply well in advance, to have a spot secured in our neighborhood school back home. ie: Live and work and send him to school in the area where we live.

No idea what we can do now. And may I just say, I just HATE HATE HATE all this pressure on us, and him, to hit these numbers to get what he needs?

Kids are NOT numbers.

And he is already performing well beyond high average expectations or better, in all school areas but math and some social things, now!

All I can do is do the evals, cross my fingers and hope for the best here. Get all G&T extras/enrichments Grade 3 will give him here.

Then hope 1 year of OT PT and/or counseling and meds here, will help him in time to retest for September G&T acceptance next year, in the US.

Or is there something else I can or should do, that I am not hearing/seeing/missing?

If your US-based schools are requiring 130 on achievement testing as well as ability testing for GT placement, you may be able to sidestep that by providing the psych report. It should include, at a minimum, formal diagnoses of dysgraphia and dyspraxia, and a statement that indicates that the FSIQ is invalid due to the discrepant WMI and PSI, and that the GAI should be used as the more accurate estimate of his intellectual functioning, and a statement that his significantly discrepant and relatively poor performance on the achievement testing is a reflection of his impairments in motor output and attention or working memory.

Here in the states, your child would certainly meet the criteria for a 504 plan, if not an IEP, and pointing out that the paper and pencil testing is not truly accessible to your child without accommodations, as it is your child's disabilities that interfere with his output on this testing, should be one way to get him the services that he will need. He cannot, in theory, at least, be denied access to gifted programming on the basis of his disabilities, and the GT program would be required to allow him to have whatever reasonable accommodations are necessary for him to have equal access to the program, such as a keyboard and extended time on tests.

For more on US law regarding the education of children with disabilities, check out Wright's Law .

Exactly!
Here's a link to Mars SD Website about gifted/special ed
http://mars.pa.schoolwebpages.com/e...ectiondetailid=3486&sc_id=1150385378

And
http://mars.pa.schoolwebpages.com/e...L2ltYWdlcy9kb2NtZ3IvNTlmaWxlMjY2MC5wZGY=

There isn't much you can do about next year this year - so I advise not to worry about it! Just consentrate on the very good ideas that this year's school has proposed and see if the OT can help. You should definitely consider your child gifted and get to know the local parent's association. GAI is a real measure of giftedness, and a really good measure of your child's 'inner' experience.

Love and More Love,
Grinity