Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC IV scores

Good.
I've been trying to do the math from http://www.ksde.org/Portals/0/Special%20Education%20Services/gifted/WISCIVTechReport4.pdf

to get it for you, but can't quite find all the scaled scores. If I'm right (big if) and you all up all the 'scaled scores' for Verbal and PRI and get over 97, then it's time to download a YSP application (if you live in the US, or are a US citizen abroad, I think) Even if GAI is 'near-YSP level' I find it's useful to think, hey, my kid isn't just gifted, she's darn close to the cut off where her scores are too high to measure, almost a standard deviation above the gifted cut off! Not to say that she'll always look that way (with or without the WM issues) but to me it helps make sense of the world - why so few people get her - it's pretty rare!

I mix up details sometimes, so would appreciate anyone to check my facts - Thanks!
Grinity

Thanks to both of you. Math is definitely her strongest area. So, I am not sure about being at DYS level, but I want to make sure her needs are met, whatever they may be.

My daughter definitely can forget certain things, but so can other kids her age, and so can I. So far, I would not say that I see any major issues with memory, other than minor nuisances in my life (forgetting jackets or lunchboxes). If anything, I think her memory for most things is TOO good. She will remind me of stuff I said in passing months or years ago.

I just want to make sure I am able to adequately advocate for my daughter for whatever she needs. This past year, she did the TAG program at school, but for second grade it consisted of one hour per week or TAG math, reading or writing. I am thankful they have a TAG program at all, but I just don't think that is nearly enough.

Good - it's better to be 'near YS' than YS level gifted in so many ways. But it's still good to know that your DD is 'darn close.'

'Working Memory' what is it? - it's very specific, and not much related to what we normally think of as Memory.

The computer analogy - I've got the world's fattest Hard Drive. I can get most things written onto the Hard Drive fast, acurately, and without much effort. Now let's talk about RAM. I've got a bitty little amount. I can see the big picture instantly, but if I try an 'run too many programs at once,' I make mistakes, and can't seem to hold on to important details.

Workbench analogy - Working memory is like one's mental workbench. Some people have a big honking workbench, and can lay out mentally lots of parts of a problem to search for a solution. A mom friend I know can visualize her daily schedule and that of her DH and 3 teen aged children. Amazing to me! If I need to do 3 errands in the next 30 minutes, I need a written list. It also works to send myself a text message. Once I've written down the list, or taken the time to type the text message, I rarely need it, because I've transfered the information from WM to Storage Memory. But something as complicated as our family schedule? I need external storage devices to suppliment the mental workbench.

Have you ever seen a presenter start with a giant pad of paper and ask the audience for questions at the start of a talk, and then check the pad towards the end to be sure she's adressed all the points? That's another example of someone externalizing her Working Memory.

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Working_memory

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10678.aspx

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10166.aspx

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks for the links. The second article in particular- as soon as I read "perfectionism" and "anxiety", I thought, "well, that would certainly explain a lot." My DD is an extreme perfectionist, and I know the testing upset her when she could not get 100% of the questions correct. This is something I am trying to work on with her. I really am not sure why she is so hard on herself, because I keep telling her that mistakes are OK.

I just really want to make sure whatever needs she has are met. I was exactly her age, when I was identified by my school to skip a grade, but my parents would not allow it. They were afraid I would be a social outcast. My needs ended up not being met until I was old enough to demand they be met. Unfortunately, by then, I was a bit of an adolescent train wreck. I am so afraid of not being a strong enough advocate for my children, and of having history repeat itself.

Do you think I should have a neuropsych eval, as well? I really do not *think* she has ADHD. I have consulted with her teachers, pediatrician, and this psychologist. But, I do not want to take anything for granted. I also do not want to be pushing for a diagnosis when there is none.

This is what I've seen -
1) In some kids, perfectionist behavior is just the way they were born.
2) In other kids, the parents 'say' mistakes are OK, and then rip themselves up emotionally over the mistakes that they make.
3) But for most of the kids who show up here, the parents are making a consciensous effort to publically forgive themselves in the ordinary course of the day, it's plain and simple a reaction to lack of challenge in the classroom. In my son, I could actually monitor how good the classroom fit was by how severe his perfectionist behaviors were and by how willing he was to try new tasks that he might not have instant success in. Apparently kids need lots of chances to work hard and make good effort, and delay educational gratification to build real self esteem. 1000 'good job' stickers just isn't going to do it for these kids.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Can you say more about that TON of energy?

Is she tirelessly digging holes in the back yard or is she crawling up your legs wanting to share every thought in her head RIGHT NOW?

It's hard to know if you should check into the ADHD question without knowing what that TON of energy looks like at home, and what she does with it at school...

I think it's worth looking into the local gifted charter school. Your DD might need that plus a skip if it turns out the WM score just an artifact of her perfectionism. Try some of those games and let us know, ok?

The scores reflect a 'rather not straight forward' sort of message. It's normal to take a period of trial and error to figure out the reality that they are projecting.

The history that you were offered a needed skip also increases the likelyhood that your daughter is going to need to be thoughout about very carefully.

Peace,
Grinity

Interesting thoughts on the perfectionism. I think with my daughter, it may be a combination of factors. As I said, we are working on it.

As for her energy...she has never needed much sleep. She will wake up some mornings at 4 am, and be on the go from morning until I force her to go to bed at 9 pm. She gets up, and if she does not have to be some place immediately, will start working on some "project". She is creative. She likes to make things, do art projects, etc. I am not a morning person. So, I will be sitting, drinking my coffee with one eye open, while she is making one of her creations, talking a mile a minute to me about the revolutions in the middle east, the environment, or whatever else is currently on her mind. That is a typical morning.

She has a lot of mental energy and physical energy. She is athletic, and creative, and I have to keep her involved in a lot of activities at all times. I insist that she always be involved in at least one sport, and some other type of creative pursuit. This summer she has been going to the Y to work out with me every day. She played outside with her friends for three hours, after going grocery shopping with me, and now she is inside doing art projects, talking my ears off again.

But, she can sit still, read a book, watch a movie, play a game, do puzzles, etc. She has great attention most of the time.There are times I KNOW she is not attending to what I am saying, and I have to bring her attention to me, to get her to focus on what I am saying. She is never, ever disruptive in school or elsewhere. When she comes home from school, she immediately does her homework without an issue.

I volunteer in the classroom at least once/week, and I see the kids who cannot sit still. My daughter is definitely not one of them. I have watched her, and the only time I can really see her not paying attention is when things are moving slowly, or if someone near her is being very distracting, acting out, etc.

But, I know ADHD can be very subtle in girls, so I know anything is possible.

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me such thoughtful replies, Grinity. It is really helpful. As you can tell, I am feeling a little overwhelmed and confused at the moment

Colomom, your DD sounds like she is doing fantastically to me.

But just in case I can tell you about my eldest DD, who has CAPD I am quite sure will be diagnosed with dyslexia and inattentive ADHD / ADD shortly - my DD's teachers describe her as very well behaved, a pleasure to have in the class, etc. She's doing well now but she had a LOT of problems with learning delays at the start of school and in all that time ADHD was only mentioned once - by a psychologist who said "Well for the first half of the session I was sure she had inattentive ADHD but she focused really well in the second half so it's not that." I know now that the psychologist should have taken a much better history AND that being able to pay attention well to things that come easily and are pleasurable does NOT rule out inattentive ADHD.

I have been told as well that part of the reason a girl with inattentive ADHD is so much harder to diagnose is that they will sit still and give the perfect impression of paying attention - and still be off with the pixies.

My DD is well behaved and can be fantastically focused, but not on something that is hard for her, she can't shut out distractions or consciously control her attention. And she will talk endlessly regardless of your level of interest.

Ironically enough I just took my second daughter to a psychologist to check for some anxiety issues, which are apparently not a problem - but I was warned to keep an eye on her "ADDish tendencies". I can not tell you how much more focused and easy to keep on task she is than my eldest. I suspect that what I am seeing is that DD#1 has inattentive ADHD, dyslexia & CAPD, and might possibly be on the very mild end of the ASD spectrum. DD#2 on the other hand has a higher IQ (not sure how much higher at this point) and has nothing else wrong other than some mild inattentive ADHD. So I have two kids most likely both with inattentive ADHD but quite different and neither with behaviour problems (apart from a mother who might go spare trying to get their attention at times).

Just adding that I have been thinking about this all morning and my 2nd daughter's level of inattention could easily be attributed to over-excitabilities and that might not be too inaccurate a description. But DD1 definitely goes beyond that.

Thanks for the response, mumofthree...Maybe my daughters and I all have "a touch" of ADD. I understand exactly what you are saying. Your two girls sound just like mine.

But now I DO wonder a bit about the possibility of a "stealth dyslexia". Her handwriting is messy, and she occasionally reverses her bs and ds still. I did not really worry about it, because I help out in the classroom and see a lot of kids whose handwriting is worse than hers, and there are more kids who still reverse letters. She does not do it often, and I just sort of thought it was because she wrote fast. In fact, the psychologist said the same thing. Her handwriting is messy because she is trying to get her ideas out of her head so quickly.

She actually loves to write. Other kids will struggle to write a story that is a page long, and she will write three. So, I don't know. She reads two grade levels above where she should be. So, again, not sure that dyslexia fits, either. Or maybe I am just worrying myself to death!