Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment New here and would love input. WISC and WIAT?

Help � new to this and not sure how to proceed!

I've been reading this forum for the past few months as my husband and I have been considering what might be the best educational path for our 2nd grade DD who recently turned 8. We are now at the point of pursuing independent testing and both the WISC and WIAT were recommended. As this is a rather pricey endeavor, are both necessary or would the WISC alone be sufficient for helping us decide if her traditional private schooling is the appropriate fit?

We�ve always believed DD is rather bright (I feel silly saying this aloud � who doesn�t see their children as bright?!) but as we�ve been observing her more closely over the course of the last year we�re concerned she�s underachieving and shows little intrinsic and/or extrinsic motivation. Her OLSAT scores in 1st grade were very high and this year's test result was an SAI of 150. Her SAT scores revealed she performed in the middle and high end for most content areas but we feel those scores may not be commensurate with her ability. Our only comparison is her brother, who in 3rd grade scored a 128 on the OLSAT (147 non-verbal, 116 verbal) and SAT scores predominantly at the 99-9 range. He�s a high achiever, very outgoing and happens to be motivated by getting good grades.

Our primary concern is that DD is languishing and she�s at a point where additional challenge in certain areas would be beneficial, if not critical. She�s currently in pullout programs for critical thinking and problem solving in Reading, Math & Writing (although these are not true G/T programs). In 3rd grade, she will be grouped by ability in a higher math, spelling, reading (Jr. Great Books) and writing. Our teacher has tested her reading ability to the max ceiling of 4th grade but doesn�t have the materials to go futher. Her lexile measurement is 960L and reading has always been one of her strong suits. She also has a wicked memory (wish I could say the same) and took 1st place at the regional spelling bee this year.

We are considering alternative schooling options or perhaps simply providing her with extra-curricular academic activities and partnering more closely with her teacher next year (armed with independent testing data) to ensure her educational needs are being met. Our school doesn�t offer a gifted program although it does provide the aforementioned programs and options for kids operating at a different level than their peers.

By pursuing independent testing, I�m hopeful the Dr. can gather enough information to let us know what the appropriate course of action may be for DD so that she doesn�t �give up� on school. Do we need to invest in both the WISC and WIAT or will the IQ data be enough to determine her needs without the Achievement portion of the test conducted as well?

Thank you in advance for any advice on necessary testing! We are rather clueless in this space and really want to make decisions for our children that will enable opportunity & success based on their unique abilities!

Oh Tx -
Neither WISC alone, Nor WISC plus WAIT will be enough data to determine her academic needs, and if the school is a good fit. They can be helpful as part of the larger picture, but don't be innocent about how much help the tests can provide.

When you asked the prospective tester if testing would reveal if the fit was good, what did he or she say?

So what is a parent to do?
The first thing to do - IMO - is to talk to the school and see if they are seeing what you are seeing. Ask if parents have had IQ testing done in the past and what changes were able to be made to accomidate kids with unusually high IQ scores. My guess is that the school will say 'nothing' or perhaps offer gradeskip or subject acceleration in Math or English. If those alternatives are agreeable, get the WISC from the psychologist and see if the school is willing to do the achievement test, or shop around for a local person who will do the achievement test cheaper.

Here are some other ways to figure your DD out:
1) Start formally 'afterschooling' her - pick a subject or two that she loves, and see if you can restart the pilot light on her 'burn to learn' with some one-to-one. After you have more of an idea about how she learns and what gets her excited academically, visit the school and observe the classroom. See if you can pinpoint specific changes that might feed the flame. So much is trial and error.
2) Hire a tutor who is well versed 3rd through 6th grade subject material and ask the tutor to work with her and see where the learning strenghts and weaknesses and what grade the tutor thinks that your dd would best function at. Ideally this would be someone associated with the current school who's opinion would be trusted by the current school.
3) Visit the alternative schooling options and listen carefully to what they have to say after their testing of your DD.
4) Try to get a rough idea of your DD's level of giftedness:

In the end, I think WISC and WIAT are good investments in 'getting to know your daughter' that is, overcoming the embarassment of saying 'my daughter is bright' when actually she could be well beyond bright, even beyond ordinary gifted - particularly if the tester is trustable both to you and your DH AND to the school. If the tester is willing to play an advocacy role in the school or in future school choosing discussions, that's really good!

Good for you TxB, for caring that your daughter seems to have no motivation to achieve at school, and for wanting to do something about it. It sound like your school is well above average in terms of what they provide, but your daughter may be 'a whole 'nother level' of unusally gifted, and so all the normal 'excellent programs' like jr. great books and ability grouping within grade may be leaving her cold. It happens, and if you can bear to read this form for months, I believe that there is a pretty good chance that it happend in your family.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hi Tx-
We were in your shoes 1 year ago. DD was in 2nd grade too... Must be the magic year! What IQ testing did for us was promote awareness, and give concrete numbers to represent what we were seeing at home and at school. Schools are typically data-driven. In our situation, the numbers spoke much louder than words. The numbers didn't, however, provide solutions. The testing will give you and the school a much clearer picture regarding your daughter's level of giftedness. What does or doesn't happen after that is all up in the air.

We decided to take things one step at a time. We meet with school administration and the gifted coordinator anually to evaluate DD8's situation. This year, for example, we considered a grade skip, but opted to wait one more year so she wouldn't have to switch buildings.

We try to always keep all of our options open, and let our DD take the lead. I have said for the past year that we will do whatever it takes to meet her needs. For the time being, our public schools are doing a great job with her.

If your DD is underachieving or ambivalent about school, she's probably trying to tell you something. You are her parent, so trust your instincts. She may not be getting what she needs, and the testing will help to clarify for you exactly where she's at. From there, you'll have to try and determine the best course of action. I really encourage you to form a partnership with the school. Most educators are in the business because they love kids. They want to see your dd succeed and be happy too. Hoagies is a great website. Our local Mensa chapter has also been an amazing resource for us. You might check and see if you have a chapter locally, and if they offer any children's programming.

Just know that we've all been there. It's tough sometimes having a kiddo who breaks the mold...

Momtogirls
Bottom

Just chiming in here. We were stunned earlier this school year by how a few test results, sent to the school ahead of our meeting, seemed to focus the conversation.
It also gave us as parents some confidence that we weren't reading too much into her behaviors; a solid footing, if you will.


I would concur.

Oh Grinity,
*insert tears of fear here*

I am very grateful for your response as I feel like I�ve been groping around in the dark for the past several months. As mothers, when something is placed on our hearts, it�s important to pursue answers - albeit rather scary when we honestly don�t know what we�re doing!

The tester we sought out is highly respected in our metro area gifted community and is �tops� on the list for our private gifted schools requiring independent testing for admittance. She�s been evaluating children for over 30 years and is a professor at the university teaching educators in the area of gifted education. My caveat for moving forward was whether or not she would be able to provide direction in the area of schooling & programs that might be a good fit for DD given test results. The answer was an absolute �yes�.

With respect to our teacher and school response - I asked DD�s teacher at our last conference if she felt DD was putting forth effort commensurate with her ability as well as, being challenged in class and she replied �yes�. I told her DD had mentioned �boredom� with reading the SRA�s (had those when I was a kid!) and the teacher said she felt that was an excuse. (?) When DD�s OLSAT came back at 99-9 the teacher did perk up a bit and ask me if her score was that high last year but that was the end of the conversation. I don't blame her teacher - she is fantastic and seems to challenge her class in the realm of academics but without formal training in gifted education, I wouldn�t expect her to see anything more in DD than simply �a bright girl� � particularly if DD isn�t applying herself.

During that conference I told the teacher we might consider independent testing and her response was �you don�t want your kids to be in the same grade, do you?� Our DS is in 3rd grade. From my observation and that comment � grade skipping seems to be the only course of action the school can provide for children of certain abilities. DD appears to be introverted in large groups and often enjoys playing alone on the playground however, when her peers come over to play �one on one� � she�s engaged and plays typical �little girl� games without hesitation or issue. My first guess would be that grade skipping isn't the answer for her but I can�t be certain. In addition � it could be problematic for both kids to be in the same grade and could be an issue from the school�s perspective.

I will take your ideas to heart and see what we can do to identify her areas of passion. I have already been working on some fun �learning stuff� for summer and realize it may take several attempts to identify areas of true interest. In addition � perhaps a tutor would help give greater perspective on academic ability and I�ll ask the school for suggestions so that we can leverage that connection if necessary. Thanks for the link on determining level of giftedness � will take a look.

We'll plan on doing the WISC but should I consider the SAT "good enough" with respect to her content achievement and pass on the fee for the WIAT? I'm not sure what other achievement type tests might be out there for a lesser cost.

Honestly, (and as misguided as this sounds) I was hoping the professional evaluator could just �tell us what to do� as I feel somewhat lost for answers. Thanks for reading my ramblings and taking time to reply. This is going to be a journey� and I am so glad to have found this forum and the support of those in similar situations! Hopefully, I can give to the community as well.

By the way � how do you �block quote" content from the previous post to include in a reply?

Hi TXBombshell- Welcome. Many of us have been through this before. Have you talked with the prinicpal of the school and asked if the school would be willing to do any testing? Even though the teacher thinks your DD is well placed, maybe you can make more headway with the principal, and maybe the high OLSAT would trigger some free additional testing by the school? Our DS's school ended up doing their own achievement testing when we brought in SB-V scores from a private tester.

I would be a little wary of a psychologist who is overly confident that they can find a right school fit for your kiddo based on 2 tests, especially if the recommendation turns out to be the private schools that recommend this particular tester. Not saying that there's anything to be concerned about at this point, just keep it in mind. There are many things to consider besides test scores as to what school will fit your kid (e.g., personality type). And many times, what works now might not work a year, or even 6 months, down the line for some GT kids. Plan for lots of advocacy, but it gets easier the more you do.

As for skipping, search for posts on the Iowa Acceleration Scale. Very useful, but it will say that 2 kids in the same grade is a deal breaker (ignored by some parents on this site who have had success with siblings in the same grade).

I know it's scary at first, but hopefully you'll find lots of support here and elsewhere.

If you click "quote" instead of reply, the original poster's message will come up with brackets showing the codes for quoting. You can delete out all the stuff you don't want to quote. And if you can remember the style, you can just type in that bracketed coding yourself.

This is fantastic feedback - thank you, truly.

If possible, we would like to stay in our current school and work with the administration. I appreciate your positive attitude about teachers and administrators, as sometimes I feel like I'm not connecting. In order to form a partnership advocating the best interest of our children, we need to remain positive about what can be done for each child in his or her given situation. Thank you for that reminder.

I think the combined feedback to my post is that the first "best step" is testing so that we actually have quantitative data with which to work. If necessary, I can then move forward scheduling a time to meet with the school in order to determine what accommodations can be made.

You know, I was originally interested in which tests might be appropriate for DD but the responses thus far have provided much greater insight to our situation as a whole. Thank you for the website suggestions -I've spent some time on Hoagies and will look into our local chapter of MENSA.

Thanks again to each of you and your time spent responding... will keep everyone posted.

It sounds like your son equally bright. Have you considered evaluating BOTH kids for a skip? That would solve the "kids in the same grade" problem, and might help out your son as well -- sounds like he is excelling, and is a social animal to boot. Just a thought.

FWIW, we have had a lot of experience with grade skips in my family (all four sibs in my generation, with additional early HS graduation for my two brothers, and grade skips for both of my nieces as well), and have never been sorry about doing it.

Hi Tx
I just went through similar issues with my DS, who is completing 3rd grade. He did really well in 1st and 2nd grade, but in 3rd grade seemed to be underachieving. His teacher quickly labeled him as unmotivated and did not view him as smart, nevertheless gifted. I knew in my heart of hearts that DS is incredibly smart, but I wasn't sure if I would call him gifted. A friend of mine suggested a full psycho-educational assessment and that is what we did. We met with a psychologist who interviewed me and DH and gathered information from his teachers and physical and occupational therapists (he also has Sensory Integration Disorder). She spent about 6 hours with DS over multiple days, not only doing testing, but getting to know him. In the end, we had the WISC and WIAT, as well as a diagnosis of ADHD and disorder of written expression. (ie Twice Exceptional). We also had a full report describing not only the test results, but describing DS as a student/person. I just got the information last week (which confirmed that he is gifted and underachieving)and I feel the information is going to help me to advocate for him going into 4th grade. I've already met with the principle and the test results were eye opening for her. She now realizes that DS has needs that have not been met at school. Luckily, she is very supportive and plans to work with me on making sure he has the support he needs.

hope this helps.

Yea Me, I can "block quote". Thank you St.Pauli and thank you for responding!


I am unaware of the school�s stance on additional testing but I can certainly consult with the principal - can you recommend possible achievement testing options (test names) other than the SAT that she�s recently taken? If we can�t get assistance through the school, do you believe additional achievement testing would be helpful or do you believe we could rely on the independent WISC to validate the discrepancy we see (on tests and observing school performance) with respect to ability vs. achievement? What does one test accomplish over the other or combined, for that matter?


Point taken and I agree. I'm looking for a starting point and although it would be easier to simply take a professional's advice, there are so many facets to this - I realize we will need to gather tremendous amounts of information about our DD prior to moving in any direction that will best support her.


Thanks:) I guess this just isn't something I'm comfortable discussing with my friends and quite frankly - I realize I could be completely "off base" about her ability. All I have to work with is a "gut feeling", an OLSAT score and interesting nuances my husband and I have observed over time.

Although this is all new territory and rather scary, the resposnes and other posts on this forum have already given me some great ideas and a sense of support that I don't have elsewhere.

Thank you!