Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment New to Board-Need Guidance in Scores/Advocacy

Thank you all! Good suggestions Aculady and thanks for the info Dottie. I'll gather data here and present it in our 504/iep accomodations list. School psychologist said he'd support either document and asked us to produce a list of what we wanted him to have as accomodations/modifications. No guarentees if they will give them to us but I at least want to go in with suggestions since they've been less than helpful in the past and since they don't usually provide anything for GT kids. Most members won't have the knowledge or experience to even know what to offer just because it isn't taught in our state schools because services are mandated. They just pretend these kids don't exist. How sad for them...

In our state, a child with those scores would qualify for a GT id, but that doesn't necessarily qualify him for any services. How's that for useful ?

Our oldest skipped a grade but we, too, don't think that would be a good choice for our younger dd with ADD. Her district states very clearly that placement in GT or accelerated classes requires motivation, attention skills, and high achievement, so a GT id doesn't mean that you'll be in GT classes. We could push more for a 504, which may be the best route in your instance. We have a psychologist's letter with an ADD dx and an anxiety disorder dx that states the school should give her a 504. The school said no initially and we didn't push b/c we didn't know what to ask for at the time.

We, instead, implemented our own interventions that didn't require a lot of cooperation from the school except to overlook her chewing gum and drinking caffeinated tea in class, which they have. If they do not overlook those things in middle school next year, we'll revisit having them written into a 504. The fact that her grades went up dramatically and her math/reading teacher noticed enough of a change to send me an e-mail asking what I'd done to her should help in proving that she does better with those things.

In terms of pull-out, if one manages to get a 2e kid into those pull-outs (which we have with significant advocacy), what it looks like varies tremendously from school to school. In our neighborhood school, dd12 rec'd a once/week language arts enrichment pull-out and would have gotten the same for math in later grades (she was there in 2nd and earlier). So, it would amount to about two hours/week of math and/or reading pull-out. They worked on things like math detective workbooks, etc. In middle school, she goes to accelerated literacy and math classes everyday but these classes are "backfilled" as the GT teacher calls it so the level of instruction isn't always super high. Some of the teachers have done a good job differentiating for the variety of kids in their classes, others have not.

Dd10 is choiced to a higher achieving school with more GT options than our neighborhood school. She goes to the GT teacher's class for about 45 mins/day for reading in replacement of the regular 5th grade reading class. She does the rest of the language arts block in the regular classroom (spelling & writing). With some serious advocacy on my behalf, she is also taking her math class daily with the GT teacher. That amounts to another approx. 45 mins/day in replacement of the regular classroom math. That class is using the 6th grade curriculum instead of the 5th grade curriculum. This school has the most available for GT pull-outs of any elementary I know in our area plus the GT teacher is really bright herself.

Dottie: Can you expand on this? Are you saying that if the comprehension alone were inaccurate for whatever reason (anxiety, ADHD symptoms, whatever) that it could significantly up his VCI and that without the 13 in the PRI, it would be a much higher IQ score, or something else? Basically, that given the scatter, the scores may not be accurate? Obviously the tests are just a clue but I'm trying to gather as much data as possible. What would age play into this as well?

I did see that research supports using FSIQ, GAI, VCI, or PRI index in determining "giftedness" programming eligibility and that the more of the sections that a student scored in the gifted range in, the likely higher their overall IQ...meaning that my DS would "qualify" with that criteria with his PRI, FSIQ, GAI (if you ignore that "129" is not "130", or 3 out of the 4 of the typical areas. I do not think his IQ results are anything behond gifted....just trying to get a handle on terms, scores, etc. before our meeting.

Squeaks,
It sounds like you've been doing battle for a long long time, and I remember my own days of this and wanted to send lots of love your way.

Have you read 'Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of the Gifted Child?' If not, I recommend you get ahold of it and read it.

When I look at the Achievement Scores and the IQ scores together, and hear you talking about 'how can I get the school to treat my child right?' - together I get a deep sense of fear.

Clearly something is very wrong at this school for this child. Of course it ought to be true that your child deserves an adequate public education. You might truly have no other options, in which case I would say - keep going!

But if there are other options, homeschooling or private schools that are either affordable, or would give need-based scholarships, or even charter or alternative schools, I would strongly urge you to look into them.

Of course it's the height to rudeness to look at a child's scores and read 2 paragraphs about the family and suggest a diagnosis over the Internet - so I'm certainly not going to do that. But I am curious if Aspergers Diagnosis is on the table? When you read books and articles about Gifted kids who also have Aspergers or Autistic Spectrum issues, do you recognize your child?

I'm asking because the subtest Comprehension and Picture Concepts are often lowered by those issues. And because I've heard that all kids with AS have ADHD and Anxiety as natural outgrowths of trying to navigate life.

Hoagie's page has a lot of links for Twice Exceptional resouces at
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/aspergers.htm

I also know some families who accept the AS diagnosis to get services from the school even though their child doesn't really fit the picture, and where that's been helpful.

I'm wracking my brain to imagine what, exactly your school could provide that might make it a better learning environment for your son. Besides hand picking the teachers for having a strong desire to bring out the best in every student, I can't really imagine it. Would more advanced classes do the trick? Perhaps, but perhaps not. I guess a lot rides on if those Achievement scores reflect what he actually has learned, or if they are an artifact of his lack of focus.

Which brings me back to the issue of medication and other ADHD interventions. If I were in your shoes, my brain would be a swirl of questions about should I medicate for the anxiety? For the ADHD? If I am medicating, is it working? What kinds of interventions am I doing besides medication, and are they working? Some have found that by posting details about the questions that make our brains swirl, that we can get more peace and perspective through the process. If this is true for you, then I encourage you to post in more detail.

I do think that giftedness has something to do with this - and at earlier ages my PG/ADD/Anxiety son shared this behavior with your son, but I wouldn't encourage you to frame this as a Gifted Issue. I would either move the child to a school where this sort of behavior is encouraged, or work hard to modify the child's behavior - medication if needed, or behavioral interventions to decrease the anxiety or increase the social sensitivity. To say "oh he's gifted" doesn't leave you any way to change things. And , while I agree that you son is gifted, based on the scores posted, he is likely to be in the 'more rather usual' range of giftedness that schools would be likely to be rather more comfortable with if it weren't for the anxiety and ADHD driven behaviors.

A very good book about working with your child that you might have luck sharing with teachers is -
Notching Up the Nurtured Heart Approach - The New Inner Wealth Initiative for Educators - Perfect Paperback (Jan. 23, 2011) by Howard Glasser with Melissa Block, Chris Howell and Richard Diffenderfer

This 'nurtured heart approach' is the only thing that really helped my son get mastery over his 'emotional immaturity.'

Peace Hands Bow,
Grinity

Love your signature Grinity, lol!

Thank you for all of your comments and suggestions. I'm a clinical psych masters so am comfortable saying that he doesn't exhibit signs at all of Asperger's. He also has been followed by a developmental behavioralist team since he was 4 for the ADHD and Anxiety. We are medicating for both and after years of trials have settled on a great combination. The specialist and us both feel that we are treating as much as psychotropically possible for the Anxiety/Adhd symptoms. There are, in our opinion and expertise, no other options regarding dosage or medication at this time.

We have been battling since he was in pre-school for appropriate education. We live in a small community and there are no private or charter options within even a reasonable drive or we would have considered it. It was what the specialist first suggested with our son just given his combination of brightness/adhd issues at age 5....but not an option for us. We are in the unique position that we have the option of 3 local schools so we are currently investigating all of our options to see which would best meet his need and will contemplate switching if one has a better program. Being all public schools, however, and with no state programs, our schools offer NOTHING to GT kids. No pull out and no enrichment without a battle, and even then teachers don't know what true enrichment is (not giving more!). There is literally no training in our state for GT populations! In later middle school, he can be promoted into honors or accelerated math and science, which may help.

I don't know exactly what the achievement scores show but we aren't hearing from any teachers (ever) that he is an average kid and we have never seen difficulty of him with any school tasks, outside of organization. For example, he doesn't enjoy writing-hence the low WIAT score-BUT he writes wonderfully and quickly. He'll moan an hour about writing an essay but them write one that is full of rich vocab, correct puncutation, and very creative. Same with Math...Doesn't want to do it but does his homework (3-4 pages) in the ride home from school, and they are messy but correct. He also shows no work for math, which drives the teachers crazy, except his answers are right. In Science, he knows in his estimate 75% of what is already taught if not more.

Challenging to make a plan for him because of the twice exceptional piece...personally I don't think that achievement scores are an accurate reflection of his true ability, and nor does his psychologist who tested him. I think he was bored, didn't enjoy the more traditional paper/pencils tasks, was on day 2 of testing and missing class and rushed. As is typical....
Seems fairly typical of his profiled kids as well...

I feel strongly that he can be managed in a traditional setting if we can get accomodations/support that will make him feel beter about his program. I should add that he is an A student who doesn't have to work hard at anything given to him so far. His issues are more with organization, avoidance of easy work (subtle), talking in class, not focusing (25-50% of the time in class he is off task routinely yet still manages to make high honor roll), social struggles, and self-esteem issues. He tells us he is bored and "entertains" himself by drawing, reading, talking. Crazy kid.

We enrich significantly outside of school as he honestly demands it. He begged for music lessons at age 4 and is currently taking 2 different lessons. He is on 2 travel teams. He plays chess locally. He goes to camps. He has books, experiments, art supplies, logic games and activities, electronic kits, legos advanced galore, etc. He NEEDS stimulation and doesn't get it at school so we try to engage him outside of it. Whereever he is, he'll learn because he enjoys it! I guess I just want to do right for my child.... when he told me that he feels misunderstood and that teachers don't like him, I was sad. This child is well liked by adults outside of school, is incredibly compassionate, raises money on his own for local animal shelters and has huge empathy for pets, young kids, and those affected by difficulties (fires, tsnamis, etc.). I don't want his questioning personality to be considered aversive in school when outside of school we all recognize the humor, the curiousity in the incesstant questioning, and not the lack of respect in his tone, but the intensity of his "need to know" and "need to question".

He has SO much to give! I'm gonna pick up those books...

Thanks Dottie as well for the information. I am still struggling to get a handle on the discrepancy so any information helps...

As I said, these boards are a life saver because these aren't easy conversations to have with other parents!

Squeaks,
Your DS11 sounds like a lovely person. Thanks for sharing him with us. I'm very glad to hear that you have a good support team and that the meds are doing the best that can be expected.

Good luck with the books.

I'm glad to hear that the achievement scores don't reflect his daily performance in school.

Is homeschooling an option?
My fear is that what he is learning in school:
1) Life is boring
2) I'm a bother
3) Practicing my 'tune it out' skills
4) I can get As with no effort
is worse than what he would learn from sitting at home all day watching TV and playing computer games.

I don't think that you can ask the teachers to 'change who they are' or how they do their job, or even what they see their job as being, but I do think that you can change their perspective on your son with the info in the 'Transforming' books.

Please keep us posted and let us know how it's going. It's good to have a place to brag about your sweetie!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

That's interesting. What does one do in terms of scores when you hit that scatter criteria? Both of my kids would be there for VCI and/or PRI. Does it just make one more cautious in interpreting the results or do you actually figure some alternative # similar to using a GAI over FSIQ for kids with scatter between indices?

I have followed this conversation but am not completely clear on what to "take away" from the discussion of scatter.

My dd has 6 points of scatter in her PRI and 7 in her processing. so that's about 2 standard deviations for each?

Are the sub-tests in each section measuring very different things, or very similar things? Or different things that typically vary together.

Do we conclude that because of this scatter, we should have a little less confidence in the "rightness" of her iq score?

I see several posters mentioning 2e and scatter. What is that relationship?

(Sorry for the rapid fire questions. I think my intensity is showing.... )

I'd be interested to hear Aimee's take on this, too. My son had 7 points of scatter in his VCI on the WISC-IV.

DS14 has 11 points of scatter between his highest and lowed subtest scores. That's just shy of 4 Standard Deviation - yeah!

Yes my son is 2E! Yes it does seem that time and effort together have made a huge difference.
((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity