I have been homeschooling my 8yo DYS son for a year and a half and it is a complete disaster. He is defiant and I cannot get him to do anything. So I give up for a while and "unschool"... but this only allows him to give in to his obsessions for days on end, he just stays in his fantasy world all day.

Rather than freeing his mind and allowing to learn about what interests him... his interests just get narrower and narrower. By this I mean he spends all day setting little paper soldiers up on the table and moving them around. By the end of the day his eyes are all bleary, his face is red, he does not look healthy at all.

Money is tight and I cannot sign him up for many activities. Actually, none at all right now. The only place he wants to go is to the model store and we cannot go to the model store...we can hardly pay our mortgage. I have to scream to get him to get dressed and come out with me, he has no more interest in the great museums that are all around us here in NYC, where we used to while away our days. (I guess we have gone too often.) Anyway, at the homeschool coop classes, we faced the same behavior problems and lack of interest and focus we faced in school. The same sinking feeling when I went to pick him up. The same unwillingness to let him to with older kids where it MIGHT be a little better. I think taking him out of school was the worst thing I ever did to him.

It's also bad for my two year old-- there's so much screaming and crying in the house. The defiance is the worst. I get wild with fury because he just ignores me all day. When I spend time with a "normal" who listens to simple commands-- tie your shoes, come down to lunch, etc... it's always amazing to me.

Most days he does no work at all, and I am NOT comfortable with this. His interests, as I said, have winnowed down to these little paper soldiers. This is one difficult child, and I feel totally without support. I have to say DYS has been no real help at all.

I'm sorry, I just had to vent.

I have no experience with homeschooling, but lots of experience being frustrated with my children not listening. It is a challenge for sure and can push us to our limits. You didn't make a mistake. You made a decision with your son's best interest in mind. It may feel like a mistake today, but after some peace and quiet and time to unwind you may feel differently. If you still feel it is not the right fit you can put him back in the public school next year. Is it possible to put him back in right now? I'm sorry I don't have lots of advice, but just want you to know you are not alone in feeling frustrated.

First of all, huge virtual hugs, Bronxmom!

I can hear how frustrated you are. Can you find a way to take a break, get some peace and quiet for an hour or two, and then try to come up with alternative solutions? We all need some space to restore ourselves once in a while.

I haven't had the opportunity to homeschool my boys, but I can imagine that it would be a handful. It sounds like maybe you both need a break. Is it possible to put your DS in a different school situation? Maybe a different school? Or the same one with a grade skip, if that is what's needed? Or maybe back in the old situation is better than homeschooling for you guys?

The good thing is that it is definitely changeable -- you can send your DS back to school if that's what you think is best for you, him and your family.

What kind of help are you looking for from DYS? Have you asked for their help in working with a school in your area to find appropriate accommodations for your DS?

I don't know that I've offered any real help, but I'm sending good thoughts your way. Remember that you have made choices in the best interest of your child. You tried something in hopes it would be better. You've realized it's not working, and that's OK. Now it's time to see if you need to try something different that might work better.

Again, HUGS!

Bronxmom, from my point of view it seems like you should seek help from a professional psychologist. It is not usual for a child to be that consistently defiant, or to have interests that get narrower and narrower, or to be unable to follow instructions at that age.

If your DS is depressed, he should be treated; if something else is going on, it's better to know than not.

In addition to a private psychologist, I think you should call the school district and ask them to evaluate him. He is entitled to this whether or not he goes back to school. It's worth doing because if he needs any special help, the school can fund it, which might lessen your financial concerns.

Best wishes--
DeeDee

DeeDee, you are absolutely right. I am only now acknowledging that something is really really wrong, getting worse, and needs to be addressed.

I have requested an evaluations from the DOE and am waiting to hear back from them-- I believe they legally have 30 days after the request to see him and then I am hoping they will at least be forced to send me a tutor or somebody to work with him. I have also gotten him a psychologist and he just started seeing her last week. In the past he has been evaluated and seen therapists, but it was like he was smart enough to hide what was really going now, now he is not maturing like he should, and he is definitely more obsessive, so I think it's becoming more obvious and I will get an answer.

And yes he is defiant in almost every way. He's not violent or anything. Just ignores us.

And we go to the library almost every day. Libraries are great.

I guess this is a lesson that kids who are obsessive, defiant, and unable to focus like this might be bad candidates for homeschooling.

I'm so sorry you're having so much frustration. I'm homeschooling my 6 and 10 year old too. It sounds like you're dealing with behavior above and beyond what I'd expect even from a PG child. So I agree with the above. It sounds like maybe you need a professional eval. Maybe someone who specializes in GT/2E issues. Does he seem happy? Does he challenge himself in any areas? Does he enjoy other children?

If school needs to be a part of your life for everyone's sanity, then just find the best fit you can. If you're both miserable under the current conditions, that won't serve him well anyway.

Sending all the best to you and your family! Good luck!

Bronxmom, I think you're doing all the right things: it may require some persistence, but keep seeking until you find the right help and support for your DS. If your first psychologist doesn't have the right expertise, you'll find someone who does. (It took us several tries to figure out our DS, but it was worth the effort.)

And I don't think you should beat yourself up any more about the homeschooling. Stuff happens with kids; whether this is something diagnosable, or developmental, or whether he's just in a bad spot right now that he needs to work through, it's not your fault. You'll do what you can to help him through it, but I just don't bet that the homeschooling "did this."

DeeDee

Does your son have Asperger's Syndrome? This level of intense focus on a narrow interest that interferes with ordinary social functioning is one of the diagnostic features.

Speaking as the mother of an AS, homeschooled, 14 yr. old, strong-willed, hg/pg son who has had an intense interest in tabletop wargaming since he was very small, I sympathize. One strategy you might use is to encourage him to express his interest in ways that incidentally included other things you want him to learn without explicitly pointing this out to him.
For example, when my son was about 7 or 8, we introduced him to the BBC History website, which includes simulations of historical battles, and in his explorations of those aspects, he eventually began reading other areas of the site and this broadened his interests.

We encouraged him to make maps and write narratives of his campaigns and share them with us and with others, bought him a cheap old version of Age of Empires (which included a great deal of history instruction in the background text included in the game),encouraged him to learn about the military in different countries and historical periods, discussed the different social and cultural factors required to support armies, the political, social,cultural, religious and economic factors underlying how and why wars start and end, the logistics involved in warfare, how warfare has driven innovation in industry and medicine, inquired about how crossing different terrain would impact the soldiers (Would it be colder or warmer in the mountains? Easier or harder to breathe? Would there be water available? Food? Fuel?)to stimulate learning about geography and science, we went on field trips to site of historical battles, and did everything we could to spark an interest in him learning things that would expand his horizons by connecting them to things he was already interested in.

Some of the kinds of question we would ask or express an interest in were similar to these: How much water would you have to carry with you if you were marching an army from ______ to ______ ? How could you figure that out? Would ground troops or fortifications be better to secure a border from attack by foot soldiers? By artillery? By cavalry? What if the border was a river running through a plain? A river at the bottom of a valley? The top of a mountain range? How can you figure that out? Can you convince me of your position using evidence from science and history? What made the Samurai such good warriors? Was it the same thing that made the Scots good warriors? What about the Romans? The Mongols under Ghengis Khan? Why are some cultures more war-like than others? How do geography, religion, natural resources, and economics influence that? What materials have been used for armor historically and in modern times? Why? You get the idea...

All of that said, we have a rule that he needs to work on something school-related for at least two hours every single day. If he can make a convincing argument that what he is doing counts as school, if he can point to the learning that is happening, and how it is relevant to developing the skills that he needs, then he gets to count it as a school activity. For a while, when his keyboarding skills were still at the point where he needed to improve them, he got to count playing Runescape as typing practice up to three hours a week. This rule about "If you can convince me..." has greatly improved his skills in argumentation and rhetoric, incidentally. We also have a rule which says that my final answer is final, though, to prevent incessant arguing.

It gets better, if you can avoid turning it into a power struggle which you both will lose - which can be the most difficult part of the whole thing. My son, at 14, is active online editing a gaming-oriented Wiki and writing not one but two blogs related to his gaming interest, both of which have numerous followers. He has developed online social relationships with other bloggers and wargamers, and he socializes IRL with others who share his interest at our local gaming store, which hosts free open game days and nights open to players of all ages. The strong interest is still there, and probably always will be. But his interests and knowledge base are pretty wide ranging at this point, although there have certainly been times when I wanted to despair. He is active in Aikido, he goes swimming with a few friends, he participates in a homeschool book club, he writes awesome poetry (some of which is haiku inspired by his wargaming, but still - he is writing poetry!), he is working through the Hippocampus AP classes in math, biology, and US History this semester, he is using Academic Earth and Annenberg media courses on his own as interest strikes, he lists "Arts and Ideas" among favorite books, and he participated in a Duke TIP law class this past summer and excelled in it.

There is hope. I wouldn't blame homeschooling. You might need to change how you are implementing it though, and even then, it doesn't sound like you got an easy child. Mine has always had "a strong will and a strong won't", and has been "high maintenance" since infancy. I'm glad that you posted this, and I hope that what I have written is helpful.

Edit: In case I didn't make it clear, I support the idea that you should get your son evaluated by a psychologist.

I think that you've received a lot of good advice. I think that if you can access a psychologist who has experience working with gifted kids it makes sense at this point. The only thing that I would like to add is that you might want take a look at

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_counselin/Webb_MisdiagnosisAndDualDiagnosisOfGiftedChildren.shtml

and also read the book which the article is based on http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707642

I find this forum routinely perserves my sanity. I get so much from reading about everyone's experiences that I would like share a bit.

I am homeschooling a very strong willed, defiant child DD7 and I have a DS3 who has absorbed a lot of the craziness since birth. It's heartbreaking for everyone, but things are getting better. I'm not sure whether or not my DD7 is 2E. We live in a reasonably remote part of Canada and I am not comfortable with the services that we can access locally. I do hope to have my DD7 evaluated at some point, but we will need to travel and we can't afford it right now. In a way this has been a blessing because I have had to figure things out on my own. This continues to be tremendous work. Homeschooling DD7 was emotionally draining for the first year. Almost daily I ended up in tears and felt like I couldn't do it, but I also couldn't put her back into school because I knew that it wasn't going to work either (we don't have many options). I assumed that 'homeschooling' was going to be a really fun and relaxed experience. I assumed that DD would actually want to do 'school work'. From day 1 it was a battle. She had meltdown after meltdown. She hit me, kicked me and screamed on and off all day. Sometimes I screamed back... but most often I ended up sobbing. In this process I feel that we destroyed a lot of trust. I didn't trust that she would ever be able to learn at home and she didn't trust that I was capable of helping her. She pushed buttons that I didn't even know that I had. Eventually she started to shut down, her interests in many areas disappeared. Her curiosity dwindled. She was no longer interested in 'everything' and instead her interests became extremely focused on 'fashion', which to this day I still personally struggle with LOL!

For me (and I am absolutely not implying that this is your situation) I had to admit that my vision of homeschool wasn't going to work. We tried a whole bunch of different approaches, including unschooling and nothing seemed to improve. I had to admit again and again that my approach was possibly never going to work. I blame myself, but I try to keep it in check because it really doesn't help. I just end up crying. Right now I am really focusing on gaining her trust and sparking her curiosity. As I am getting it back (little by little) she is becoming more receptive to doing 'school work'. We don't do a lot. She has a lot of control. Honestly, this part has been very hard for me to accept, but, my alternative is kicking and screaming.

My DD shows many signs of AS and ADHD, however, as our lives improve these signs are becoming less noticeable. I know that my initial approach to homeschooling was a 'bad educational fit', and this was a hard pill to swallow. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just getting really good at accommodation. Maybe I am, and if she ends up with a diagnoses, then we are on the right track. I think that eventually we will find it fun (maybe even relaxed). I just didn't anticipate that this would take years. Maybe this is where the rewarding part comes in...

Bronxmom, I am so sorry you are going through this. Tears welled up in my eyes reading your posts and some of the responses. I can imagine how heartbreaking all of this is for you. I can also imagine that homeschooling my DD4.5 might present similar challenges. She is also rather defiant, very intense, and doesn't want to do anything that looks like schoolwork so I am not homeschooling except in tiny pieces. We may sit down to make a book together or read books about science topics. Her verbal skills are stronger than her math, though her math are quite high too (she is beyond end of first grade in math while in pre-k), but she would much rather tell stories, read books, etc, than build or organize or work with numbers so I have tried to initiate activities that use the more mathematical parts of her brain to help balance her out, but she often fights me. She is good at math, but resists it if I initiate it simply because I initate it. My fear is that when I let her lead the way, she also narrows her focus and it doesn't seem healthy for her brain. I think she needs to be pushed a little to expand, not contract. My DD often fights everything, but has gotten a little better. I wish I could tell you what helped, but I am honestly not sure.

Good luck with the evaluation. I hope that you find the answers you need and the best educational situation for your child.

Hugs to you, bronxmom.

I too homeschool a PG8yo and there have been days when I wonder what I'm doing. I have no advice except to say that it sounds either like a 2E situation (that's what we have here ) or a power struggle situation where he wants to claim control. We've had that too. The second situation is easier - I just back off, a few weeks at a time. The 2E bit is a lifelong adjustment. With your son at 8yo, you're probably still trying to make sense of him. I draw comfort from the posts in this forum that it literally takes *years* for us to uncover our children and to find out their underlying strengths and weaknesses.

Homeschooling or public schooling, we only want the option that works best for our kids. No decision is final. If you change your mind, it's because you're introspecting to find the best fit. I hope you find helpful answers in the upcoming evaluation.

It is good you are pursuing an evaluation and I hope you get helpful answers in that process.

I agree with your general point that for kids who tend to be obsessive (and I'll to that 2e, depressive, anxious, etc.) it often doesn't work well to take away all structure. There needs to be routine and limits.

As far as not being able to afford activities, I certainly understand that. I would encourage you to try to cast a wide net in your community and look for less expensive options. As another poster mentioned many game stores have free game nights. Another thought would be to look for adults who might share an interest with him - maybe a friend has a retired dad who likes military history or something like that.

Also, if you have not already done so maybe it would be a good time to apply for financial assistance through DYS to support his education or activities.

I apologize for writing such an explosive post and then disappearing. Thank you all for your beautiful responses.

Aculady, your response in particular... (sounds like you may have spent some money at Games Workshop as well???) The amount of work you put into helping your son is breathtaking, and, honestly... I could not help feeling extremely exhausted as I read that. I have tried a similar approach with my son, for example a few days ago he wanted to talk about the Boer War and I did manage to turn that into a long conversation about the forces of history and why the Industrial Revolution happened in England. That was nice. But in general, attempting to explain the world through the lens of military history is something I can only do for short periods. It just freaks me out, and feels too much like I am feeding his obsessions.

I don't really think he is AS, in fact when he was very small I would have said he was very "un-AS"-- he seemed unusually engaged in people, both adults and his peers-- well beyond his agemates. It is only over the year or so (and it's getting worse) that he seems to be talking at people, not too them-- so maybe that's why I more worried about feeding his obsession, and less willing to adapt to them or use them as a means of teaching him.

Bronxmom, I think it probably sounds more exhausting than it was. Thankfully, my son has always been very social, too, (just not very skilled at picking up on and using non-verbal communication or social cues), so it was not as if we were dealing with a child who did not want to interact with us at all, even on his own terms, which I think would have been *far* more exhausting for me. Running him around to OT and PT and vision therapy appointments felt much more demanding than finding ways to interest him in learning what we thought he needed to know. We've had a lot of fun, and great conversations along the way, and as I look back from the perspective of the years, I am really glad that we made the choices we did.

But there were certainly times when we agonized, worried, and stressed, and were convinced that we were failures as parents. We went through times where we contemplated divorce, or residential placement for my son, or sending him to public school, and we have done our time in the trenches fighting with professionals who tried to tell us that our son was just fine and didn't need any additional supports, or, alternatively, that he was never going to be functional, people who failed to see the extreme complexity that defines him. We somehow managed to keep our eyes on the goal most of the time, and that has gotten us through.

I don't know your son or what he needs, and I don't know what you and the rest of your family need, but I know that your son has a mom who will do everything in her power to find that out, and make it happen, and so I feel very hopeful for you and your son and your family in the future. You are reaching out for help in all the right places, and I feel confident that you will find the answers and solutions that you and your son need, even if what the solutions look like changes from year to year.

I hope that you all find the help you need to be able to be happy and fulfilled and hopeful for the future.

Best of luck on your journey, and feel free to vent or query anytime!

I don't think I can add anything else to the excellent replies, just to say that DS11 is approaching high school and we are considering homeschooling. IMHO most of the stress at home stems from school - whether bullying issues, boredom, lack of recognition - and these too are hard to cope with (maybe harder as you have very little control or input when "the professionals" are involved).

As an aside we have extensivley used videos/DVDs and CDs to engender interest and for our boy they seem to work. it is amazing what he can pick up when a C is playing and he is just messing about with his plasticine or toys.

At an earlier time when they were trying to pin some disorder or other on him we tried Omega 6 and they certainly helped calm him down so he could settle on something.

Little tyke still won't pick up a (non-factual) book tho!

best of luck!

We had a lot of problems with homeschooling.

All my (then 6yo) DD would do voluntarily was READ. And read, she did-- thousands and thousands of pages a month. But still-- that hardly seemed like a good way to 'educate' a child.

Oh, and she would also be willing to do Singapore Math's "challenging word problems;" five to seven a of those a day.

She refused to do any activities that required tactile sensory input, refused to do large-motor learning activities, and kept "jumping" out of curriculum that I kept (foolishly) trying to fight her to do.

It was maddening... and quite frankly, the rate that she went through curriculum was bankrupting us, public library patronage or not. (I'd find a great deal on curriculum that looked great, she'd work with it for a week or two... or a month... and then WHAM-- she'd refuse to do anything at all.) The upshot was that she was jumping/black-boxing OUT of the material and then refusing to act like a trained poodle and demonstrate it with worksheets and activities.

She hated manipulatives. She hated drawing. She hated writing.


I was frankly at my wit's end with her.

Enter public virtual school-- external accountability and standards. It wasn't a magic bullet, but it was by far a better thing than pure homeschooling had been. A lot of it was the personality issues between her and me; it's a built-in, hard-wired power struggle with her-- but that is about EVERYTHING, not just schooling. We're both very volatile people-- so there are still just days when it feels like the end of the world.


I hope that you find some answers. {hugs} I've shed a lot of tears and pulled out a lot of my own hair over my homeschooled EG/PG kid, too. You aren't alone.

Coming into this late...

Bronx...my son just turned 11 he also tends to get fixated on "tasks" in game play. If he isn't putting Lego sets together he will get out his army men and have wars.
Scary...What I didn't realize while he was setting his stage he was also researching the different wars that occurred throughout time.
He took it a step further and dove into a historical atlas and memorized all the different nations and battles they had to become nations. This included cultures and Religions.

It might surprise you...your son may have an agenda in his play. These children think so outside the norm.
Have you asked him what he is doing ? He may have an actual strategy in his play.

I know my son will mumble and look the other way now when he knows he isn't talking or acting like a normal 11 y/o. I have to constantly tell him "son, please don't rush, talk clear and look at me...I WANT to hear what you have to say" Breaks my heart (hence my screen name).

My son started with WWII interest...It spiraled from there and it was all self taught. Maybe try getting a book on the "battles of WWII" and just give it to him. He may just want to know more
and thus school will begin.

My son taught world religions for his teacher last week. She was confusing students and DS took out a book he had and explained the differences in religions in different areas if the world. She thought I taught him...yea like I can teach him anything...LOL again this all started with little green army men on my kitchen counters.

My son will pick up on people getting frustrated with him and will instantly dummy or shut down. DS always asks me if I'm OK with what he is doing (he knows playing with little green army men is really for younger kids). I tell him carry on...
our secret <3. He is also very sensitive so I try really hard to listen which really isn't easy.

My son used to sneak his passion of the "moment" when I pay too much attention to it. Now I just breath and look the other way.

I am just starting my HS journey, I am sure I will have similar issues. Let us know how you all are doing...

wow this thread has been an eye opener. I am currently reading a few books on homeschooling etc and this has just confirmed a budding lightbulb moment for me:

regardless of homeschooling or filling in the spots at home inbetween school, we cannot push our agendas onto these kids of ours. We have to let them do their thing and just be there when they need us to answer questions / provide additional resources etc.

Flip this is hard - it's so much easier to "guide" them to what we feel they should be doing/ need. I guess for me personally I need to learn to breathe deep and trust that my kids will figure it out as they go. And that's okay too.

I guess I'd agree, except to the extent that using a curriculum is defined as pushing an agenda. Sometimes it's good for a kid to learn something that isn't his or her first choice, and it's also good to learn how to learn things that are tough, not so exciting at first glance, etc.