Sorry, this is very long!

I am URGENTLY seeking advice on middle school choice for my DS DYS 11.0, recently diagnosed with Asperger�s syndrome and disorder of written expression. I apologize for my very long post. There is a LOT to consider. I am hoping a few of you can skim, and a few of you can give read it all the way through, and give me your two cents worth.

The choices are a large gifted and talented middle school (let�s call it G&T Middle) with a well-deserved reputation that would feed his need for content and pace, and a newer middle school, (let�s call it Cozy Middle), that has a special program for kids with Asperger�s, that would not provide much academic challenge for him but would help remediate his Asperger�s weaknesses, give him valuable life skills, and likely be a much cozier, friendlier place to experience middle school. None of his close friends from elementary school plan on going to either school next year, although both schools will likely have at least a few kids from his school.

I thought I would have more time to decide, but apparently the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle needs to know NOW what we want to do. Even worse, we �think- DS
tested well enough for entry into G&T Middle, but we won�t have the results til May! If we turn down the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle now, it will not be available to him later. If he does not get into G&T Middle, he may wind up at Cozy Middle, but in the non-gifted general ed program without any of the extra supports available through the Asperger�s program there.

I am completely torn.

G&T Middle would be the obvious choice for any DYS without 2E issues. It is a fabled school (at least in my area!). It is a gifted and talented middle school with an able and motivated student body, selected via 2-hour admissions tests that are a combination of achievement and logic/reasoning. It�s essentially highly selective admission of kids whose parents presumably thought they were capable of getting in and who had the motivation to lug their kids out to G&T Middle for the tests. It�s a combination of smart kids and high achievers.

The teachers at G&T Middle are known for being knowledgeable in their areas and enthusiastic about their teaching. They are mostly very, very experienced. The teachers are reputedly excellent. I�ve heard they work to help kids succeed in every area, even areas where they are not �talented.� (Like Davidson, kids can test in based on strength in just one area, so there are �mathy� kids who speak little English, or struggle with grammar, and there are arts and letters types who are allergic to math.) They have time built into the schedule to give academic intervention or enrichment as needed, and almost every child winds up getting the top �4� score on the very easy State NCLB exams. I LOVED the way DS�s scribe for the written test, a math teacher at the school, really warmed up to him. (Teachers at his current school are mostly just annoyed by him.)

The curriculum is fast-paced, instruction is somewhat traditional, with lots of information delivered via lecture and reading and some very fun-sounding projects. There are �very fast,� �fast,� and regular tracks for each of the academic areas, with opportunities for kids to move quickly through those subject areas in which they are strongest and opportunities for in-depth study in the child�s tested �talent� area. The fast-moving traditional classes provide excellent preparation for entry into the city�s selective high schools. It offers Spanish, French and Italian, a robotics class, tons of electives, etc. Kids get to take an extra five hours a week of classes in their tested �talent� area. They appear to participate in many types of academic talent competitions. DS is a knowledge sponge who picks up information very quickly, CRAVES information, is incredibly inquisitive, and often comes up with surprisingly deep thoughts on more abstract issues, so he would love this method of content delivery.

It is a tremendously diverse school with a huge immigrant population. I would be excited for my son to meet kids from so many different backgrounds.

HOWEVER, my son has Asperger�s. It is mild in terms of social skills, but it is starting to affect his social life more. He has several friends at his current school. He gets asked on playdates and gets invites to birthday parties. He can be very funny with physical humor. As a pre-school classmate said, [DYS] knows all about funny.� He has problems with reciprocal conversation, greetings, face recognition (tells me he identifies people by looking at their shoes). He pays no attention to personal grooming and has very poor fine motor skills and table manners, so he�s often got food on his face or clothes. He is starting to get excluded and verbally bullied by the cool kids at his current school. His teacher moved him from a table where the girls made mean comments. He could really use a social skills class to learn more about reading other�s faces, following social conventions, etc. G&T Middle is a huge school with a lot of kids. Ethnically, culturally, he will already look different from most of the other kids. Add the Asperger�s issues and he will really stand out. On the other hand, I think I spotted at least one other Aspie helping out on testing day, who seemed very happy and in his element.

My son is a sensory kid. He says he has very sensitive eyes and it hurts his eyes to look other people in the eye. He shuts down in noisy places, like the huge G&T Middle cafeteria. He got very agitated in the G&T Middle hallways during their very noisy and crowded open house. Apparently class changes are much quieter than the open house, but I can�t imagine those echoing hallways ever being truly quiet. Kids have the option of spending lunch in the library, but not with food, and my skinny minny has a big appetite.

He has extremely poor visual memory (except for text) and still does not know his way home if we venture off of the paths we take on a daily basis. For example, if I take him four blocks from home, he doesn�t know which way is home. He could easily get lost in the several floors and identical hallways at G&T Middle . If he goes to G&T Middle , he would either have to ride the train to the G&T Middle neighborhood (a bit rough) and then take a city bus that drops off in front of school, or we would have to join the local bus pool, where G&T Middle parents chip in ($2-3K per year, depending on route) for a private school bus to take their kids from various neighborhoods to G&T Middle . If he goes to the Asperger�s program, it would be via train with one transfer in our own relatively safe neighborhood, exiting the train in a rougher neighborhood, and a short walk down the block to school at the same time as tons of other kids.

He was formally diagnosed with Disorder of Written Expression, because he has trouble with both fine motor skills and visual memory, and generating ideas. He struggles to write down assignments, and often misses getting them, because he does
not realize until he gets home that he has missed something important, like a page number. It takes so much concentration to form those letters and remember where he is in the sentence. Assignments may start halfway down the page, with words so cramped at the bottom they are illegible. He can spell perfectly on a spelling test, but spelling is atrocious when he�s writing a story or essay. He has a tendency toward perfectionism, so he hates showing his weakness. He responds very negatively to any sort of criticism and tends not to do very well with creative writing idea generation. He has trouble thinking about what a teacher or reader might need to see in a writing assignment, so he forgets to put down his name, background information for a story, etc. Writing assignments have speeded up considerably since he began typing them on the computer, but given his social deficits and inability to think about his audience, his written homework is usually poor in quality. For the past few years, his science lab partners have gotten mad at him for knocking over materials or ruining experiments with his clumsiness.

He tends toward negativism, and if one bad thing happens during the day, he is on a negative track for the rest of the day. He is very hard on himself and is often unable to brainstorm ideas for assignments if his first idea is rejected by himself or others.

He suffers from Goldilocks syndrome from years of unchallenging work. He either gets something right away, or he completely shuts down and refuses to try to understand it. For example, the psych who tested him said that for PRI and math questions (his area of comparative weakness), he either answered the question right away, or became agitated and refused to try AT ALL.

I have no idea if teachers at G&T Middle have any sort of training to deal with this behavior. On the one hand, challenging material at just the right level is supposed to help kids get over this brain freezing perfectionism. On the other hand, what if the work level is not just right?

G&T Middle is making the right noises about 2E. The school administration were wonderful about getting him a scribe for the test, say they have worked with Aspie kids before, and also say they try to keep communication open with parents and make changes as necessary. They sound like the are willing to accommodate. I just don�t know if they understand how to help him improve in his challenge areas. On the other hand, I might be able to get Aspie-specific social skills classes and writing tutoring after school.

The other choice, the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle , has teachers specifically trained to help kids with Aspbergers.

At Cozy Middle , there are five Aspie kids in a class of 25, with two teachers, one specifically for the Aspie kids. Math is tracked, based on NCLB test scores, so my son would go to the fastest math class (leading to algebra in 8th). Because so many of the Aspie kids have writing problems, the five Aspie kids in a class all do a special, pull-out language arts class specifically designed to help them with idea generation, strategies to keep handwriting from holding back writing, and thinking about the reader�s perspective.

They also have their own grade-level comfy retreat room just for the Aspie kids, with bean bags, books, and soft lighting, that they can go to when they feel overwhelmed. The room is also used for special social skills classes, conducted with the five aspie students and the one special teacher.

DYS is unlikely to get lost. The entire sixth grade of the middle school is on one floor, in one wing of the school. Seventh and 8th grade are on the two lower floors of the same wing.

Academics are mixed at Cozy Middle , the Asperger�s school. Other than the tracked math class, there would be a full range of kids in each class, including kids barely meeting NCLB standards, kids with behavior problems, and some gifted kids who opted to go to a smaller school. There is no foreign language. There are weekly �exploratories,� field trips outside of school for hands-on learning. They might be to museums, or for sample gathering for science. My son would undoubtedly like getting out of class, but he likely wouldn�t be learning much, because the concepts taught in the field trip would be things he already knew from his own reading. For example, a field trip taking samples of dirt for pH would not really teach him anything new about pH. The written assignment demonstrating what he was supposed to learn about pH would likely just be frustrating for him, because the guidelines would be so loose and would involve so much handwriting.

The school is based on a �discovery� model, with kids doing lots of hands-on projects and group assignments rather than lecture-style teaching. Lesson plans focus on the learning process rather than tremendous providing tremendous amounts of content. This is the model at his current school, and he hates it because it leads to the concepts being taught in a very slow manner, without a tremendous amount of depth. He also is stressed by the constant need for group interaction, and he hates the assignments that usually go along with it, which usually allow for a lot of creative input instead of following a format.

Each school has its pros and cons, and I am completely uncertain what to do. DH is often in both gifted denial and Asperger�s denial. He thinks DYS should go to G&T Middle , the gifted school, but he�s letting me decide. DYS likes the idea of G&T Middle , but loves the coziness of Cozy Middle and the Asperger�s program there.

I was really leaning toward the Asperger�s program, until I saw how my son�s scribe for the G&T Middle tests, a math teacher at G&T Middle , reacted to him from testing. My son�s lack of social skills is usually interpreted as rudeness, arrogance, etc. He is not a teacher pleaser, and so many teachers seem to actively dislike really, really smart kids.

When the G&T Middle math teacher/scribe led my son away, he looked very stern. When they came back two hours later, after the first test (math talent), the teacher was beaming from ear to ear. He said DS was a �really great kid.� DS11 reported he did most of the test without doing the actual math, just using logic, so that he just said �a,� �b� etc. without first trying to compute anything. For example, if something had to be multiplied by two, he would choose the answer that was an even number. Once he figured out something had to be multiplied for the answer, he just figured out which answer was the correct magnitude and selected the multiple choice answer with the correct number of digits. Perhaps the teacher thought he was a computational wizard, when DS is actually a little fuzzy on math facts and takes forever to complete long division or multi-digit multiplication!

DS also completed the second test (science) with the same scribe before time was up, and when I later went to the school office to get cab company numbers, the scribe was there. The scribe grinningly introduced me to the principal as �[DS11 name]�s mom� and said �we hope to see [DS11] at G&T Middle in the fall.� (Hint that DS11 tested well?) The principal said, �[DS11 name] �..? He was adorable!� It seemed like the two of them actually � liked- DS11. And they wanted him there, even though they could undoubtedly see that he was 2E. Perhaps teachers who go to work at gifted schools actually like gifted kids!

At any rate, I am really looking for some advice based on other�s experiences.

Would it be crazy for me to ask for DS11 to get to spend a �sample day� at each school? (Including G&T Middle , which might think I�m crazy for asking to do this before the scores even come out!)

Any input appreciated!

I wish I had your son's choices when I was a little kid, I had to go through public school. Public school wasn't good enough with my emotional disturbance, and not fast paced enough for me so I suffered from boredom.

I don't know what to say, but I would say he spend a practice day at each school, then let him decide.

But what if you don't get into the G&T school later on? Where would he go?

I know, we are lucky to have these choices!

IF he did not get into G&T Middle, he would be in the general ed program at Cozy--- and there is actually an interview process for that school, so no guarantee there, either!

I wish I had some experience with having to choose between 2 schools that have such major advantages - but I can share my gut reaction: This paragraph here, plus the Goldilocks problem tip me to recommend you go for Super G&T.

I also think that all the diversity makes it easier for kids with 'unusual' social skills to fit in better.

I would also recomend you set up a quick little meeting with the principle of Super G&T and explain your situation, and ask for her advice. She may be able to 'tip' you off on if you will or won't get the acceptance.

Keep us posted and let us know.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

bk1,

What a situation! I can imagine how stressful this must be.

This probably sounds too simplistic, and I'm sure you've considered it, but could you call G&T Middle and explain your situation? That you'd have to turn down Cozy's Aspie program before learning if your son would be accepted? They might be able to indicate whether you should hold out for their acceptance letter? Especially if they reacted as favorably as you thought they did...

Also, is there a down-side to accepting Cozy's Aspie program and then changing your mind based on what you hear from G&T Middle? Does your acceptance lock you in?

Oops. Looks like Grinity and I had the same idea. Sorry for the cross post!

So G&T middle doesn't specialise in AS children, but it has had some and isn't fazed by another, and you have some evidence that they know what they're doing and like your DS. It sounds as though you think there's a risk that he might not get on fine there, but not a very high risk - right? On the other hand, the risk at Cozy Middle is that although his AS will be really well supported, his giftedness will not - and from what you say, it sounds as though the probability of that is high. Am I reading between the lines too much in saying that if you had both offers on the table today, you wouldn't really hesitate - he'd be going to G&T middle, despite your reasonable anxiety about its risks?

Is a day at each school really going to tell you very much? It's not long enough for him to get used to the hard new things at G&TM, nor long enough for him to get seriously bored at CM, so you wouldn't really be learning anything more about the risks that concern you. I suppose if he took G&TM totally in his stride, that would be reassuring - but if he didn't, it wouldn't tell you that he wouldn't settle just fine in a week or two, would it?

Why does it take until May to get results for tests he's already done? If you got yourself to the point where if G&TM offered him a place you'd take it, then would it be worth ringing the principal there and explaining your situation? I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to be told that your DS is in, even if they are still deciding about some other places. But of course, I don't know how their system works and may be wrong.

Thanks for the input. We are lucky to have two good middle school choices after slogging through SEVEN years (pre-K through 5th) at the local elementary school, with NO acceleration and little enrichment. We didn't apply for gifted in the early years, and by the time we actually did, gifted spots were few and far between.


Cozy's Aspie program is apparently considered by special ed attorneys the best public program for Aspies in our city, --- and it's in our district, so DS 11 would have preference over kids who did not live in the district.

As for trying to keep Cozy's Aspie program as a placeholder --- I get the impression, although I'm not quite sure, that if DS11 gets into Cozy's Asperger's program, then his applications for other schools get pulled. The person who would know wears several hats. She is the social worker at his current school, the social worker for the district's Aspie elementary program, AND the coordinator for placement in the Aspie program at Cozy. So if I asked, she would know exactly what I was trying to do!

Placement decisions for G&T, and all other non-special ed middle school programs, is handled by a huge, inept, citywide enrollment office known for being completely unwilling to have any contact with parents other than sending out the enrollment letters. So G&T gave out the tests (and I'm guessing scored them), but then all the results go to the citywide enrollment office for number crunching and notification.

Perhaps if I approached the G&T principal with a reminder of DS, saying he's likely to get in, we're trying to decide, and we'd like to give him a day at each school?

I'll ask our social worker for the same with Cozy.

Ok, I am going on and on. I think I prefer G&T M, but I think what is giving me pause is that the social worker, DS11's occupational therapist, and even the psych who diagnosed him all think we should focus first and foremost on his social development and Asperger's issues. Am I being too heartless about the special pains of middle school, not fitting in?

My experience surviving social ostracism as a PG kid in middle school makes me think it's not such a big deal. But then again, I think I have a very different, resilient and optimistic personality, and haven't had to deal with Aspergers.

I wonder if they are right, or if they really do not understand the frustrations of a HG/PG kid in regular school. The principal at his current school said she thinks G&T would be the best place for him.

Also, I am wondering if DS11 just -looked- like a mega-genius on the test because he answered everything so quickly! Maybe he did ok, but not well enough to get in. There are kids who go to Saturday classes specifically designed to help them pass the tests for G&T Middle!

I'm the father of a PG Aspie, but that doesn't qualify me as an expert, because Aspies seem to differ so much as to their needs and other characteristics. From your description, both these schools sound like extraordinarily good things, but they are certainly not equivalent.

Our experience has been that, since Aspies differ so much, and a PG Aspie is even more uncommon, flexibility on the part of school personnel - willingness to learn, to listen, and to adjust course from time to time - is crucial to success. A school that has a substantial amount of success with Aspies will surely have flexibility in spades. They may or may not also have the resources to serve the intellectual needs of a PG Aspie - no, make that THIS PARTICULAR Aspie.

Based solely on your description, but not knowing your son, I would be inclined to think that G&T would be wondderful for your son IF they're going to bring that kind of flexibility to bear. The fact that the teacher who served as scribe for your son clearly LIKED him counts for a lot in my book too. As a next step, I would go with Grinity's suggestion: meet with the G& T principal to get her/his advice and see if she will work as a partner with you in solving the dilemma. In the process, you'll learn about the principal's flexibility and openness (does the principal claim that they have lots of experience with kids just like your son? that would be a red flag), which will probably be a very reliable indicator of how the school as a whole will be.

Both school commutes sound challenging, especially for a kid who might draw teasing from crowds of other kids who don't know him. When you think you've got a good choice as to which school, but before carving anything in stone, how would it be if you and your son do a trial run together through the commute to school, to confirm that he will be OK with making that trip?

Good luck!

Does your child qualify for an IEP?

My DD has an AS diagnosis and things improved when she was challenged academically as well as supported with appropriate accomodations. I don't think it is good to look at them individually, especially in a PG kid. Both GT and AS need to be addressed.

I would talk to the G&T middle school principal and see what accomodations they are willing to give your son to best meet his needs, an IEP wouldn't be necessary if they are already willing to make accomodations, which it sounds like they are based on the scribe, but you would want more specifics.

I do not like the sounds of the AS program, for a GT child.

Yes, he does have an IEP that probably needs a lot more fine tuning than it currently contains, as far as accommodations. Right now it has scribe for testing as the only in-class accommodation. I think he needs to have assignments written down for him. If he goes to G&T middle, I would love for him to have some quiet lunch space.

They just added tutoring for writing, but this is pull-out with someone who doesn't really know anything about the unique challenges of AS kids. Also, it doesn't contain anything about social skills classes. He is getting counseling, but its on perfectionism, not pragmatic language. Pragmatic language is supposed to be added, but I think his current school plans to have the speech therapist do this, and she is not trained in AS.

In our state, IEP is only for weaknesses, not for giftedness.

Maybe he could go to G&T middle successfully if you fine-tune the IEP for that environment.

I would ask for a new IEP meeting to make the necessary changes. Pragmatic language will only become more important as time goes on. My DD received this service from the speech therapist as well. Does he meet with a social worker to help with socisl skills? We wrote that into my DD's current IEP with additional time as needed for transition to the middle school for any classes she may take there. (She currently HS's her core subjects but attends PS for electives and services.) We have a planner written in as well as the ability to keyboard for all creative writing or lengthy assignments. Does your DS keyboard?

I'm not an expert, but I am doing a similar thing with my son (2e aspie), elementary, not middle though. He will be attending the G&T school next year, and they are meeting with us next week to go over his IEP and behavior plan. I did not plan to send him there next year because I wanted to keep him in his current class (the wonderful teacher loops to the next grade) because I thought it would be better socially. But we decided to move on to the G&T for the added academics that he craves. We had him in a summer school for Aspie's and the teacher could not academically challenge him so he had behavior problems and it somewhat backfired. He is currently in a social skills group for Aspie's which is going well and we are going to continue it during the school year next year. So, my point is that we are in a similar situation and opted for the G&T school (with accommodations from his IEP) and an outside Aspie social group. I know it is a little different with your son being in middle school, and I know how you are agonizing over it. We couldn't decide for the longest time, but what helped us was how accommodating the G&T school is being! I can't believe they are setting up a meeting for us 5 months before the school year starts! Whatever you decide will be good...a lot of times you really have to rely on your instincts for what will be best for your son. Good Luck, I can't wait to hear what you decide! Nan

His only work with counselor is on perfectionism. He is playing games with a younger kid and learning it is not the end of the world if he loses. Does your DD's social worker have training on AS? And what kind of activities do they do?

How is the planner written in?

We are making a request for evaluation for use of keyboarding.

They may be right, but it is almost certain that they are totally clueless about what it's like to be HG/PG without educational accomidations. So I'd be careful about letting them sway you. (And can't you always change next year to Cozy if need be?)


The Super G&T school, on the other hand, certainly appears to understand their former students who have AS. I like the point that each child with AS is different. Seriously, isn't your son more likely to find friends at the Super G&T school, since they are more likely to have similar interests?

Where is that 'Answer book?' when we need it?

Hugs and more Hugs,
Grinity

Hi Nan:

Thanks for this perspective and reassurance.

I guess I have to realize that EITHER middle school choice will be an improvement over his current situation.

Right now, he is just in a regular elementary school with no AS-specific help and practically no challenge. The Cozy Middle school would be about the same level of challenge, with faster math AND support to address his Asperger's challenges. G&T Middle would provide more rigorous academics, and we could try to work in AS help with the IEP.

Now my dh has just arrived home. When I told him about maybe picking G&T, he said, "but will he be lonely and not have any friends there?" Part of the appeal of Cozy Middle is that it would have the built-in friends -- a teacher support and cadre of five AS kids in his class and 10-15 AS kids in the grade.

Now that I've started talking to him about the merits of that, now he's leaning back to G&T Middle!

Sigh...

Hi Grinity:

Good points.

I am leaning toward G&T Middle. Not that we know he got in yet. I think we got big hints, though, right? Why else would the teacher/scribe say those things,if not to give us hope?

Once he's there, though, I think it would be tough to transfer him out to Cozy. The AS program at Cozy is considered the best in public middle school in my city, so all spots will get filled. When I went on the tour, there were parents from very far-flung neighborhoods of the city, wishing they lived in-district, like us, so their kid would get preference. Also, I think that once we spurn them, they are unlikely to be interested in him in the future.

My DS7 is 2E--GT/Asperger's--as well, though in somewhat different ways from your son, so it's not hard for me to read myself into your situation.

I suspect that your son would have as many (or more)friends in the GT school as in the Cozy school, just because GT kids are likely to be accepting of him as a GT kid with eccentricities, and the AS kids at the other school all have their own social...difficulties...by nature.

I think I would prefer for my son, in this situation, to go where he could build on what makes him GT rather than a place where it was all about being AS. His elementary school right now does a lot of both, and while I understand his need for the social skills training and I'm grateful for everything they do in that regard, I would be hard-pressed to keep him there if they were not also doing well for him with the GT needs. It sounds to me like your GT school is not unfamiliar with AS, and they sound willing to work with that.

You may also be underestimating the brainpower that goes into the way that he says he solved the math problems so quickly. A less able mind would slog through the mathematics without ever thinking about the tricks.

The travel logistics might be the worst of your dilemma, but you might be able to find a way to get around those. Certainly I would go with him through the route several times to get it down, but mightn't there be some way to help that out? Maybe he would do well with a map, or written instructions step by step, or a GPS of some sort? Possibly a recording in real time, if the travel steps were reliable enough for that, walking him through each thing as he goes.

I hope you can work out what is best for you guys!

I just wanted to add to your difficulties :-) by playing devil's advocate and pointing out that it's not very surprising if, on a GT board, you find a preponderance of people suggesting you give highest priority to your son's GT needs! I rather hope you're also posting about this dilemma on a good ASD support board, assuming there is such a thing?

Concretely, if you do decide to spurn Cozy Middle AS and wait in the hope of a G&T middle place, I'd suggest writing a very nice letter to the director of the AS programme there mentioning all the things you were impressed by, and saying that it was a really difficult decision which you've agnonized over, but that (really carefully word this bit!) in the end you felt that G&T middle would be in a better position to meet your son's other special needs, viz. giftedness. Couldn't do any harm, and might possibly help you if you were later trying to to get him in there.

It sounds like you have the idea that AS kids are happiest when there are other AS kids around. Or that teachers can do much to help kids enjoy each other. I don't know if this is true or false, but I'll bet others here have some experience with this. I do know that a teacher can encourage kids to be mean to a child, but I'm must less optimistic that a good teacher or group of good teachers can be effective in promoting children getting along with each other.

Any BTDTs here?

Grinity

Only you can decide what is best for your child.

Taking your above statement and the diagnosis at 11, my concern would be placing the whole emphasis of his school life on this one area without account for his giftedness. It would be like making the kid who doesn't like and stuggles with math, do math all day long.

I would discuss what could be done at the GT school with IEP accomodations.

It can't hurt to write a letter to the Cozy school, just in case.

Excellent point!

My DD does more game playing, and working with another student on social skills with the social worker. The speech therapist works with the pragmatics, so they work on vague statements, idioms, rules of conversation, inference meaning, etc. They also use a book of social skills. Usually the speech therapist will work on something and then they will practice it with the social worker and another student.

The planner was written in that she would have a daily planner of assignments and homework that is checked by the teacher and then I sign it each night and send it back. She would wirte as much as she could and the teacher would edit and add as necessary. This will carry over to any classes in the middle school.

Keyboarding made a big difference in her writing. At her last IEP we were all amazed when comparing writing from just a year ago to now.

What a great idea! Your dd makes the start, and then each teacher adds, so she can see what she was missing! I will try to get this added to DS's IEP.

What book is the social worker using for social skills?

It's taken me so long to get back here because I've been posting and responding on other lists. The 2E list seems to be a little more worried about dealing with Aspie life skills challenges first, before academic accommodation. Another local list serv source told me her daughter got teased on a daily basis at G&T Middle and that the science teacher that DS would have would be wonderful.

Grinity, you are right. It is quite true that just having that extra teacher at Cozy won't necessarily keep kids from being mean.

I am still completely undecided! My plan is to call both schools Monday and see if I can meet with the principals.

Once we make a decision, I'll try to follow your advice, Dottie, and not second-guess. Thanks, Dottie, for your support!

And thanks also, Colin's mum, for the idea to send a gracious rejection letter to Cozy if we decide against it. Perhaps it would ease things if we wound up not getting G&T Middle or having to leave in a hurry.

I think for us, afterschooling to provide academic challenge might be harder than getting out of school help for ASD and executive functioning.

I can't do academic afterschool myself because it causes huge strife. DS suffers from Goldilocks syndrome, where whatever I give him is either too hard or too easy, and both seem to lead to meltdowns. He seems to do much better at controlling himself when taught by someone else.

DH is very patient but has little insight into what's causing the meltdowns and so often just exacerbates the anxiety and the meltdown.

While there are lots of academic afterschool opportunities in my very large city, most are right after school, AND not nearby and neither DH nor I would be available to take him. Also, we're in a city with a lot of wealth and lots of activities are priced beyond our means, even though we are middle class, just because great providers can charge much, much more and get it.

In addition, I haven't found anything else that would provide a just-right pace, opportunity to work with true peers at his LOG, and provide work-arounds for his writing problems. For example, there is a nearby afterschool science program, but it's geared for younger kids and nothing covered would be new content for him. More advanced science seems to be geared for older kids and require more math than he's had.

The distance learning classes offered by CTY seem to require more writing than he would be willing to handle voluntarily.

However, we are in a big metro area with lots of ASD kids and kids with executive function issues, and I think he would be willing to go to something based on social skills.

OK, I am workign this out as I am writing!

Thanks for listening in and giving your advice and support.

I am searching for afterschool help with the social skills issues and executive functioning and hoping we have better luck with location, time and pricing there.

Philosophically, I think when I have to make this kind of decision I try to play to my kids' strengths. Developing their strengths is going to help them overcome their weaknesses.

If your DS is in an environment with other kids at his cognitive level and who share interests with him, he is going to have many more opportunities for successful social interactions. I am speaking from personal experience... I have been told (as an adult) by professionals that I am "Aspergery" although the diagnosis did not exist when I was a child. I was certainly more severely affected as a child--regular public school was torture. The three years I spent at a GT middle/high school were the best of my K-12 experience. They were the only years where I felt that I fit in at all.

We are using this book http://www.amazon.com/Social-Skills...d=I13MYSVRS8N9P8&colid=2WJQ43ZCKJOM5 there is also a younger version that they sometimes use by the same author.

Thanks for the book Melissa. I am going to get a copy.

Good Luck bk1! Meeting with both Principals seems like an excellent idea.

I was quite interested to read from the 2E list and see the different slant. One difference is that I got the feeling that many on the 2E list were years ahead of their agemates academically, and were in a position of having to 'slow down' a bit.

I think once kids get into the High School years the problem of 'these grades count on college transcripts' becomes a looming issue for any kid who is accelerated and has enough 'organizational difficulties' so that they could really use the extra years to mature up a bit. That's what's on top at my house anyway. For a while in the Middle School years,it looked like the asynchrounous development was 'going away' but now it's back in full force.

Just guessing, but there it is.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I, too noticed the 2E board was more leaning towards Cozy Middle. This was giving me pause. These folks have 2E kids, they've been through it, and they are telling me to pick Cozy.

I realized that most of the kids sounded much further advanced in academics, whether young and accelerated in ps or hs. Even a child without AS and with no EF delays might feel a little overwhelmed by the organizational and social demands of being up 2+, 3+,4+ grades in school. I am sure it is even more so for the 2E kids who are accelerated.

Going to G&T Middle won't zoom DS many years ahead. HE might wind up 2 years ahead in math, and have one extra high school science or computer class under his belt by the time he arrives at high school. He would likely have more in-depth, substantive language arts classes, but he will still wind up in, at most, sophomore language arts when he gets to high school as a freshman. Being just one year ahead, he would face the difficulties of a 2Ekid, but not a 2E kid who's in class with kids several years his senior.

Also, with those comments, I think people were saying that they thought it would be easier to get academic accommodations for giftedness than accommodations for AS or writing. From my experience of never achieving any sort of giftedness accommodations for my son in his PS for the last seven years, but a few for the handwriting, I think it is easier to get an accommodation for anything that can go on an IEP.

But, I will put this to the test tomorrow, when I call the principals at both schools and ask what they can do!

I am a 2E mom and I definitely would be more comfortable taking my son to G&T Middle. The reasons that I would do so:

1. I don't want to cater to my son's weaknesses. I want them supported and helped, but I don't want them to define him. I want his successes to shine, and that would be easier for him academically.

2. I honestly believe that there are parts of disorders like Aspegers that become worse when a child isn't challenged and interested in what he is currently doing. My son disengages when he isn't interested. Throughout the school day, you can definitely see these issues. I believe that his issues would become better, after the initial scheduling accomodations, when faced with academic peers and academic challenge.

3. I agree that it is much harder to get gifted accomodations. Once again, schools are more comfortable catering to weaknesses than they are propping up the strengths of those ahead of the curve.

So, that's my take.:)

Having a 2e son in a G&T middle school program, I can tell you two things from my experience (keep in mind he's not AS; he has problems with working memory, auditory processing, executive function and dysgraphia):

1) The G&T teachers are VERY passionate about their work and their students and are far more willing to make accommodations than his regular public school teachers have ever been.

2) It is difficult for a 2e child with EF or writing difficulties to be organized and motivated enough to keep up with accelerated programs, so the parents have to do a LOT to help keep on top of things.

Having said that, I like the G&T program so much (because their teaching style is so perfect for DS12's learning style) that I have fought to keep him in that program and have worked tirelessly to be sure his IEP has the best accommodations possible to help meet his needs...and it's worth it.

I'm inclined to agree with the others here, that it's best to focus on your son's strengths whenever possible. If your son falls in love with the curriculum and content, he's likely to work hard to keep his own weaknesses from getting in his way...especially since he HAS experienced the PS system and knows what the differences are.

As for your fears that your son may have appeared smarter because of his testing methods...I think the way he arrived at the appropriate multiple choice answers is quite brilliant and I suspect it wouldn't matter in the end how he figured them out, because he's one smart cookie either way.
I think he'd enjoy the G&T program if he craves learning in the way you've described.

Good luck!

My latest research:

Thanks to postings on local boards, I've now managed to hear back from one parent at Cozy Middle with Aspie child, one teacher at Cozy, and three parents at G&T Middle, who all asked their kids about school.

They all love their schools!

One parent of a G&T Middle student said her child had already covered topics in 6th grade science that the parent didn't get until high school. DOK! She raved about the science "talent" teacher.

One child said there was incessant teasing at G&T Middle, the other two said there was practically none,and that teachers did not tolerate bullying.

The parent of a child at Cozy said it had been a great experience for her child and he really thrived. Her child had been appropriately challenged in the accelerated math offered (concludes with algebra in 8th). Challenge for a HG child was hit or miss in some classes. Her dc had day in, day out, lessons on social skills issues that helped her child tremendously. The school's specific pull-out on writing for the AS kids had been especially helpful and made a big difference. The teachers were in general very dedicated.

I also spoke to the placement social worker for Cozy, who said there would be a lot of kids just as smart as my child there. I tend not to believe those sorts of statements when made about any DYS kid, and that puts up warning flags for me. HOWEVER, she does not actually run the program or teach or counsel there.

The director of the Aspie program at Cozy returned my call, but it went to my voicemail and didn't pop up in messages until around 5:30. Curses on my horrible cell phone coverage!

I also spoke to the counselor at G&T Middle who said..... "the key thing is to be flexible and do what the kids need." I kid you not. She said she teaches a social skills pull out for two kids at the school. An OT visits the school once or twice weekly, with schedule varing by needs of kids that year.
Most lunch periods, kids who want a quieter lunch will come eat with her in her office. They also can receive a "permanent library pass" so that they can go to the library for lunch or before school. At lunch, kids can go to the room of the cluster teacher who has signed up to do lunch-time tutoring. Kids who need help with handwriting as stated in IEP get to use assistive technology and the school-board approved technology is the alphasmart keyboard. Many teachers post assignments on-line. Some don't, but there would be work-arounds. (This is where she talked about flexibility.) I was least satisfied with her answers on writing skills. Those would be worked on in-class, andin the twice-weekly intervention that each kid gets, where kids are pulled out and placed in a class with kids who scored similarly on reading or math exams, and given remediation or supplementation as needed. Few specifics and no guarantees, other than, they try to give the child what's needed. Cluster teachers conference at least once a week to discuss the kids in their cluster and what's needed. Both parents and kids may come to the meeting to discuss what they need and parents will come and make requests.

Hi Phroggy:

I have had the same thought about needing to keep DS more interested in class and that boredom may exacerbate the AS because he tends to tune out.

I feel the AS symptoms have gotten more pronounced over the years, and perhaps this is a small part of that.

Thanks so much everybody for your advice and help!

bk1

I didn't see the question on 2e, but here's my take as a mom of a 2e kid who went to a gifted middle program:

Our county has both middle school autism programs and gifted magnets. Both have their positives and negatives. That having been said, for my own daughter, it was more helpful to send her to the gifted magnet with a few other probably-Aspies than to be the only gifted kid in an autism program. Socially, she fit right in with the gifted kids, albeit the slightly odder kids rather than the Super Achieving Uber-Academic King of the School ones. This may have as much to do with her general personality as her exceptionality, since she's kind of a blue-haired anime fan anyway. Academically, her big challenge was executive functioning/organization, and that was a huge one. If the school has a set-up whereby grades can be followed online, it helps.

Ultimately, in the spirit of full disclosure, she's back homeschooling this year. Not because of the demands of the program, but because the gifted magnet is a program within a larger, very low-functioning school, and she ended up having daily panic attacks after about her fourth week of daily fights and student arrests. :o(

I felt like I had monopolized the 2E board for days with my handwringing. Perhaps good to know that my volume of posts was a mere blip!

Thanks for this input.

I am concerned about the number of peers DS would have in Cozy. I also think that its AS program might really, really help DS.

I have decided that either will be acceptable and I should not drive myself crazy trying to pick The Best.

I will keep everyone posted and give you our BTDT once we've BTDT!

bk1

Words to live by for most things, I'm finding!

This seems REALLY clear to me. He will probably get into the g&t prog based on the teachers reaction; whenever I've heard/seen teachers/testers react that way, it just seems to be good news. You can get a lot of the aspergers help outside of school, and frankly he might find some kids at the G&T school that are better fits all-around for friends.

My 2 cents, I know you can't bet everything on getting into g/t but I think it would be a better choice.

Seems like one easy/much needed accommodation might be a quiet place to eat, not one or the other. (I hate the noisy cafeteria too, when I visit. I remember we would eat at our desks in the little cath. school I went to, it was pretty nice. Sigh.)

(ps, our ds9 is 2e, some anxiety/depression, some social delays)