Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional middle school dilemma: super G&T or Aspie program?

Sorry, this is very long!

I am URGENTLY seeking advice on middle school choice for my DS DYS 11.0, recently diagnosed with Asperger�s syndrome and disorder of written expression. I apologize for my very long post. There is a LOT to consider. I am hoping a few of you can skim, and a few of you can give read it all the way through, and give me your two cents worth.

The choices are a large gifted and talented middle school (let�s call it G&T Middle) with a well-deserved reputation that would feed his need for content and pace, and a newer middle school, (let�s call it Cozy Middle), that has a special program for kids with Asperger�s, that would not provide much academic challenge for him but would help remediate his Asperger�s weaknesses, give him valuable life skills, and likely be a much cozier, friendlier place to experience middle school. None of his close friends from elementary school plan on going to either school next year, although both schools will likely have at least a few kids from his school.

I thought I would have more time to decide, but apparently the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle needs to know NOW what we want to do. Even worse, we �think- DS
tested well enough for entry into G&T Middle, but we won�t have the results til May! If we turn down the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle now, it will not be available to him later. If he does not get into G&T Middle, he may wind up at Cozy Middle, but in the non-gifted general ed program without any of the extra supports available through the Asperger�s program there.

I am completely torn.

G&T Middle would be the obvious choice for any DYS without 2E issues. It is a fabled school (at least in my area!). It is a gifted and talented middle school with an able and motivated student body, selected via 2-hour admissions tests that are a combination of achievement and logic/reasoning. It�s essentially highly selective admission of kids whose parents presumably thought they were capable of getting in and who had the motivation to lug their kids out to G&T Middle for the tests. It�s a combination of smart kids and high achievers.

The teachers at G&T Middle are known for being knowledgeable in their areas and enthusiastic about their teaching. They are mostly very, very experienced. The teachers are reputedly excellent. I�ve heard they work to help kids succeed in every area, even areas where they are not �talented.� (Like Davidson, kids can test in based on strength in just one area, so there are �mathy� kids who speak little English, or struggle with grammar, and there are arts and letters types who are allergic to math.) They have time built into the schedule to give academic intervention or enrichment as needed, and almost every child winds up getting the top �4� score on the very easy State NCLB exams. I LOVED the way DS�s scribe for the written test, a math teacher at the school, really warmed up to him. (Teachers at his current school are mostly just annoyed by him.)

The curriculum is fast-paced, instruction is somewhat traditional, with lots of information delivered via lecture and reading and some very fun-sounding projects. There are �very fast,� �fast,� and regular tracks for each of the academic areas, with opportunities for kids to move quickly through those subject areas in which they are strongest and opportunities for in-depth study in the child�s tested �talent� area. The fast-moving traditional classes provide excellent preparation for entry into the city�s selective high schools. It offers Spanish, French and Italian, a robotics class, tons of electives, etc. Kids get to take an extra five hours a week of classes in their tested �talent� area. They appear to participate in many types of academic talent competitions. DS is a knowledge sponge who picks up information very quickly, CRAVES information, is incredibly inquisitive, and often comes up with surprisingly deep thoughts on more abstract issues, so he would love this method of content delivery.

It is a tremendously diverse school with a huge immigrant population. I would be excited for my son to meet kids from so many different backgrounds.

HOWEVER, my son has Asperger�s. It is mild in terms of social skills, but it is starting to affect his social life more. He has several friends at his current school. He gets asked on playdates and gets invites to birthday parties. He can be very funny with physical humor. As a pre-school classmate said, [DYS] knows all about funny.� He has problems with reciprocal conversation, greetings, face recognition (tells me he identifies people by looking at their shoes). He pays no attention to personal grooming and has very poor fine motor skills and table manners, so he�s often got food on his face or clothes. He is starting to get excluded and verbally bullied by the cool kids at his current school. His teacher moved him from a table where the girls made mean comments. He could really use a social skills class to learn more about reading other�s faces, following social conventions, etc. G&T Middle is a huge school with a lot of kids. Ethnically, culturally, he will already look different from most of the other kids. Add the Asperger�s issues and he will really stand out. On the other hand, I think I spotted at least one other Aspie helping out on testing day, who seemed very happy and in his element.

My son is a sensory kid. He says he has very sensitive eyes and it hurts his eyes to look other people in the eye. He shuts down in noisy places, like the huge G&T Middle cafeteria. He got very agitated in the G&T Middle hallways during their very noisy and crowded open house. Apparently class changes are much quieter than the open house, but I can�t imagine those echoing hallways ever being truly quiet. Kids have the option of spending lunch in the library, but not with food, and my skinny minny has a big appetite.

He has extremely poor visual memory (except for text) and still does not know his way home if we venture off of the paths we take on a daily basis. For example, if I take him four blocks from home, he doesn�t know which way is home. He could easily get lost in the several floors and identical hallways at G&T Middle . If he goes to G&T Middle , he would either have to ride the train to the G&T Middle neighborhood (a bit rough) and then take a city bus that drops off in front of school, or we would have to join the local bus pool, where G&T Middle parents chip in ($2-3K per year, depending on route) for a private school bus to take their kids from various neighborhoods to G&T Middle . If he goes to the Asperger�s program, it would be via train with one transfer in our own relatively safe neighborhood, exiting the train in a rougher neighborhood, and a short walk down the block to school at the same time as tons of other kids.

He was formally diagnosed with Disorder of Written Expression, because he has trouble with both fine motor skills and visual memory, and generating ideas. He struggles to write down assignments, and often misses getting them, because he does
not realize until he gets home that he has missed something important, like a page number. It takes so much concentration to form those letters and remember where he is in the sentence. Assignments may start halfway down the page, with words so cramped at the bottom they are illegible. He can spell perfectly on a spelling test, but spelling is atrocious when he�s writing a story or essay. He has a tendency toward perfectionism, so he hates showing his weakness. He responds very negatively to any sort of criticism and tends not to do very well with creative writing idea generation. He has trouble thinking about what a teacher or reader might need to see in a writing assignment, so he forgets to put down his name, background information for a story, etc. Writing assignments have speeded up considerably since he began typing them on the computer, but given his social deficits and inability to think about his audience, his written homework is usually poor in quality. For the past few years, his science lab partners have gotten mad at him for knocking over materials or ruining experiments with his clumsiness.

He tends toward negativism, and if one bad thing happens during the day, he is on a negative track for the rest of the day. He is very hard on himself and is often unable to brainstorm ideas for assignments if his first idea is rejected by himself or others.

He suffers from Goldilocks syndrome from years of unchallenging work. He either gets something right away, or he completely shuts down and refuses to try to understand it. For example, the psych who tested him said that for PRI and math questions (his area of comparative weakness), he either answered the question right away, or became agitated and refused to try AT ALL.

I have no idea if teachers at G&T Middle have any sort of training to deal with this behavior. On the one hand, challenging material at just the right level is supposed to help kids get over this brain freezing perfectionism. On the other hand, what if the work level is not just right?

G&T Middle is making the right noises about 2E. The school administration were wonderful about getting him a scribe for the test, say they have worked with Aspie kids before, and also say they try to keep communication open with parents and make changes as necessary. They sound like the are willing to accommodate. I just don�t know if they understand how to help him improve in his challenge areas. On the other hand, I might be able to get Aspie-specific social skills classes and writing tutoring after school.

The other choice, the Asperger�s program at Cozy Middle , has teachers specifically trained to help kids with Aspbergers.

At Cozy Middle , there are five Aspie kids in a class of 25, with two teachers, one specifically for the Aspie kids. Math is tracked, based on NCLB test scores, so my son would go to the fastest math class (leading to algebra in 8th). Because so many of the Aspie kids have writing problems, the five Aspie kids in a class all do a special, pull-out language arts class specifically designed to help them with idea generation, strategies to keep handwriting from holding back writing, and thinking about the reader�s perspective.

They also have their own grade-level comfy retreat room just for the Aspie kids, with bean bags, books, and soft lighting, that they can go to when they feel overwhelmed. The room is also used for special social skills classes, conducted with the five aspie students and the one special teacher.

DYS is unlikely to get lost. The entire sixth grade of the middle school is on one floor, in one wing of the school. Seventh and 8th grade are on the two lower floors of the same wing.

Academics are mixed at Cozy Middle , the Asperger�s school. Other than the tracked math class, there would be a full range of kids in each class, including kids barely meeting NCLB standards, kids with behavior problems, and some gifted kids who opted to go to a smaller school. There is no foreign language. There are weekly �exploratories,� field trips outside of school for hands-on learning. They might be to museums, or for sample gathering for science. My son would undoubtedly like getting out of class, but he likely wouldn�t be learning much, because the concepts taught in the field trip would be things he already knew from his own reading. For example, a field trip taking samples of dirt for pH would not really teach him anything new about pH. The written assignment demonstrating what he was supposed to learn about pH would likely just be frustrating for him, because the guidelines would be so loose and would involve so much handwriting.

The school is based on a �discovery� model, with kids doing lots of hands-on projects and group assignments rather than lecture-style teaching. Lesson plans focus on the learning process rather than tremendous providing tremendous amounts of content. This is the model at his current school, and he hates it because it leads to the concepts being taught in a very slow manner, without a tremendous amount of depth. He also is stressed by the constant need for group interaction, and he hates the assignments that usually go along with it, which usually allow for a lot of creative input instead of following a format.

Each school has its pros and cons, and I am completely uncertain what to do. DH is often in both gifted denial and Asperger�s denial. He thinks DYS should go to G&T Middle , the gifted school, but he�s letting me decide. DYS likes the idea of G&T Middle , but loves the coziness of Cozy Middle and the Asperger�s program there.

I was really leaning toward the Asperger�s program, until I saw how my son�s scribe for the G&T Middle tests, a math teacher at G&T Middle , reacted to him from testing. My son�s lack of social skills is usually interpreted as rudeness, arrogance, etc. He is not a teacher pleaser, and so many teachers seem to actively dislike really, really smart kids.

When the G&T Middle math teacher/scribe led my son away, he looked very stern. When they came back two hours later, after the first test (math talent), the teacher was beaming from ear to ear. He said DS was a �really great kid.� DS11 reported he did most of the test without doing the actual math, just using logic, so that he just said �a,� �b� etc. without first trying to compute anything. For example, if something had to be multiplied by two, he would choose the answer that was an even number. Once he figured out something had to be multiplied for the answer, he just figured out which answer was the correct magnitude and selected the multiple choice answer with the correct number of digits. Perhaps the teacher thought he was a computational wizard, when DS is actually a little fuzzy on math facts and takes forever to complete long division or multi-digit multiplication!

DS also completed the second test (science) with the same scribe before time was up, and when I later went to the school office to get cab company numbers, the scribe was there. The scribe grinningly introduced me to the principal as �[DS11 name]�s mom� and said �we hope to see [DS11] at G&T Middle in the fall.� (Hint that DS11 tested well?) The principal said, �[DS11 name] �..? He was adorable!� It seemed like the two of them actually � liked- DS11. And they wanted him there, even though they could undoubtedly see that he was 2E. Perhaps teachers who go to work at gifted schools actually like gifted kids!

At any rate, I am really looking for some advice based on other�s experiences.

Would it be crazy for me to ask for DS11 to get to spend a �sample day� at each school? (Including G&T Middle , which might think I�m crazy for asking to do this before the scores even come out!)

Any input appreciated!

I wish I had your son's choices when I was a little kid, I had to go through public school. Public school wasn't good enough with my emotional disturbance, and not fast paced enough for me so I suffered from boredom.

I don't know what to say, but I would say he spend a practice day at each school, then let him decide.

But what if you don't get into the G&T school later on? Where would he go?

I know, we are lucky to have these choices!

IF he did not get into G&T Middle, he would be in the general ed program at Cozy--- and there is actually an interview process for that school, so no guarantee there, either!

I wish I had some experience with having to choose between 2 schools that have such major advantages - but I can share my gut reaction: This paragraph here, plus the Goldilocks problem tip me to recommend you go for Super G&T.

I also think that all the diversity makes it easier for kids with 'unusual' social skills to fit in better.

I would also recomend you set up a quick little meeting with the principle of Super G&T and explain your situation, and ask for her advice. She may be able to 'tip' you off on if you will or won't get the acceptance.

Keep us posted and let us know.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

bk1,

What a situation! I can imagine how stressful this must be.

This probably sounds too simplistic, and I'm sure you've considered it, but could you call G&T Middle and explain your situation? That you'd have to turn down Cozy's Aspie program before learning if your son would be accepted? They might be able to indicate whether you should hold out for their acceptance letter? Especially if they reacted as favorably as you thought they did...

Also, is there a down-side to accepting Cozy's Aspie program and then changing your mind based on what you hear from G&T Middle? Does your acceptance lock you in?

Oops. Looks like Grinity and I had the same idea. Sorry for the cross post!

So G&T middle doesn't specialise in AS children, but it has had some and isn't fazed by another, and you have some evidence that they know what they're doing and like your DS. It sounds as though you think there's a risk that he might not get on fine there, but not a very high risk - right? On the other hand, the risk at Cozy Middle is that although his AS will be really well supported, his giftedness will not - and from what you say, it sounds as though the probability of that is high. Am I reading between the lines too much in saying that if you had both offers on the table today, you wouldn't really hesitate - he'd be going to G&T middle, despite your reasonable anxiety about its risks?

Is a day at each school really going to tell you very much? It's not long enough for him to get used to the hard new things at G&TM, nor long enough for him to get seriously bored at CM, so you wouldn't really be learning anything more about the risks that concern you. I suppose if he took G&TM totally in his stride, that would be reassuring - but if he didn't, it wouldn't tell you that he wouldn't settle just fine in a week or two, would it?

Why does it take until May to get results for tests he's already done? If you got yourself to the point where if G&TM offered him a place you'd take it, then would it be worth ringing the principal there and explaining your situation? I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to be told that your DS is in, even if they are still deciding about some other places. But of course, I don't know how their system works and may be wrong.

Thanks for the input. We are lucky to have two good middle school choices after slogging through SEVEN years (pre-K through 5th) at the local elementary school, with NO acceleration and little enrichment. We didn't apply for gifted in the early years, and by the time we actually did, gifted spots were few and far between.


Cozy's Aspie program is apparently considered by special ed attorneys the best public program for Aspies in our city, --- and it's in our district, so DS 11 would have preference over kids who did not live in the district.

As for trying to keep Cozy's Aspie program as a placeholder --- I get the impression, although I'm not quite sure, that if DS11 gets into Cozy's Asperger's program, then his applications for other schools get pulled. The person who would know wears several hats. She is the social worker at his current school, the social worker for the district's Aspie elementary program, AND the coordinator for placement in the Aspie program at Cozy. So if I asked, she would know exactly what I was trying to do!

Placement decisions for G&T, and all other non-special ed middle school programs, is handled by a huge, inept, citywide enrollment office known for being completely unwilling to have any contact with parents other than sending out the enrollment letters. So G&T gave out the tests (and I'm guessing scored them), but then all the results go to the citywide enrollment office for number crunching and notification.

Perhaps if I approached the G&T principal with a reminder of DS, saying he's likely to get in, we're trying to decide, and we'd like to give him a day at each school?

I'll ask our social worker for the same with Cozy.

Ok, I am going on and on. I think I prefer G&T M, but I think what is giving me pause is that the social worker, DS11's occupational therapist, and even the psych who diagnosed him all think we should focus first and foremost on his social development and Asperger's issues. Am I being too heartless about the special pains of middle school, not fitting in?

My experience surviving social ostracism as a PG kid in middle school makes me think it's not such a big deal. But then again, I think I have a very different, resilient and optimistic personality, and haven't had to deal with Aspergers.

I wonder if they are right, or if they really do not understand the frustrations of a HG/PG kid in regular school. The principal at his current school said she thinks G&T would be the best place for him.

Also, I am wondering if DS11 just -looked- like a mega-genius on the test because he answered everything so quickly! Maybe he did ok, but not well enough to get in. There are kids who go to Saturday classes specifically designed to help them pass the tests for G&T Middle!

I'm the father of a PG Aspie, but that doesn't qualify me as an expert, because Aspies seem to differ so much as to their needs and other characteristics. From your description, both these schools sound like extraordinarily good things, but they are certainly not equivalent.

Our experience has been that, since Aspies differ so much, and a PG Aspie is even more uncommon, flexibility on the part of school personnel - willingness to learn, to listen, and to adjust course from time to time - is crucial to success. A school that has a substantial amount of success with Aspies will surely have flexibility in spades. They may or may not also have the resources to serve the intellectual needs of a PG Aspie - no, make that THIS PARTICULAR Aspie.

Based solely on your description, but not knowing your son, I would be inclined to think that G&T would be wondderful for your son IF they're going to bring that kind of flexibility to bear. The fact that the teacher who served as scribe for your son clearly LIKED him counts for a lot in my book too. As a next step, I would go with Grinity's suggestion: meet with the G& T principal to get her/his advice and see if she will work as a partner with you in solving the dilemma. In the process, you'll learn about the principal's flexibility and openness (does the principal claim that they have lots of experience with kids just like your son? that would be a red flag), which will probably be a very reliable indicator of how the school as a whole will be.

Both school commutes sound challenging, especially for a kid who might draw teasing from crowds of other kids who don't know him. When you think you've got a good choice as to which school, but before carving anything in stone, how would it be if you and your son do a trial run together through the commute to school, to confirm that he will be OK with making that trip?

Good luck!