someone came out to observe my daughter at preschool and reviewed some forms her teacher and I filled out and said she saw no signs of anything beyond being a potentially gifted, highly dramatic, somewhat manipulative, but very cute kid. Some of us really were scratching our heads wondering about some of her behavior. I wouldn't even know where to start. She is so intense, and melodramatic, and silly, and sometimes hyper, but this teacher said she was able to focus well, tried to lead the class, but wasn't overly boarish, and is a bit impertinent, but she so no sign whatsoever of anything else. She also said that the class she is with is such a group of kind, polite kids that she thought it was good for her to mingle with them because we mostly need to polish her social skills even if that means she doesn't do anything with her brain at school for awhile. They suggested doing something outside of preschool for her for mental stimulation, but that keeping her with children quite a bit below her intellectually should do her "no harm." For the moment, I think that may be fine if she seemed happy enough there. We could go somewhere with some more advanced kids,but would they be as good of an example in terms of behaving well? These kids at her school are so mannerly and I do value that for the moment. It would be awesome to have everything, but do I really need to worry about her intellect when she just turned four?

To me, not knowing your DD, it sounds like the person who observed your DD had some thoughtful (and accurate?) comments that could possibly help you. Her comments seemed reasonable and well-thought out and didn't pathologize what she saw. Your DD is a healthy, happy, enthusiastic, smart kid! And I liked what she said about focusing on preschool for awhile as purely a social event. The nice thing about preschool, IMO, is that you do have time to do more "mentally stimulating" things at home, such as trips to the zoo, science museum, nature center, or backyard and things like board games or anything else that interests her. To me, the fact that her preschool is full of really nice kids, would be a reason to not worry at this point.

Now, when she goes to school full-time, you'll need to have a game-plan for academics!

I agree with mnmom23. With DS6, I struggled with what to do while he was in preschool. I think it actually helped him socially and have seen the effects of being able to get along with all kids where he is now. Thankfully, once he was in "real" school, his K teacher saw that he didn't belong academically which meant very little advocating from me. But I would've pushed then. And now he gets along with everyone, regardless of intelligence level and grade level. In the real world, he's going to have to do that anyway!

Hey TT -
1) How Nice to have a reassuring observation!
2) What is the observer's credentials with kids who learn to read at age 2? Seriously, since most gifted kids are in the Optimally Gifted range (MG), and yours is not, I would be very careful about accepting their conclusions at face value. You DDs are as different from MG kids, as MG kids are different from average kids, KWIM?
3) I'm confused - is she happy?
4) Is it a problem? The things to watch for are
a) is she showing signs of perfectionism? Is she willing to take risks that might call her smartness into question?
b) is she learning that she isn't one of the group?
c) is she left with so much energy that isn't being satisfied at school that she is hard to manage at home?
d) is the room 'play based' or 'academic readiness - based' - one would expect her to do much better in a play based room.

5) Is there a play based room for older children availible so that one could try a trial to see how she does with older children?

But mostly - Yippee! So nice to have confirmation that she is not patological!!!!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hi Grinity,

I can always count on you to ask interesting questions. You bring so much liveliness to this board. Let me try to answer your questions:


2) What is the observer's credentials with kids who learn to read at age 2?

Honestly, she works primarily with kids with learning disorders and other issues, so I think she is unfamiliar with the sort of child we have here, but for the most part, she was really delighted with her and didn't see any blatant red flags. I know we all have heard again and again that giftedness can look like ADHD and can go hand in hand with sensory issues, so just wanted another opinion and she was afflilated with the school system and free so we thought we'd get her opinion. My DD does get OT for proprioreceptive and vestibular issues, but they are "graduating" her after a short stint in OT. I have wondered if there are any lingering sensory issues since she has to grab and touch and talk and move and crash all day, but that lady at least didn't see anything that needed to be investigated any further but then again she only saw her for one hour and sat down and had her read words, tell her days of the week, do simple math, draw pictures, and do puzzles etc. which would have made her behave much better because she had attention and maybe some sort of challenge (she was suppose to just observe but couldn't help herself and started quizzing her). My DD told me this the teacher never fessed up to it.

3) I'm confused - is she happy?

I'm confused about this too! In general, she is a very exuberant kid, but when she is not happy, look out. She goes off the deep end. She often has a little explosion at pick up time and says she doesn't want to go to school and is looking forward to it ending, yet when I spy on her or others observe her, she appears on the surface to be happy (smiling, making friends). When they test her at the end of the year and made her say her alphabet and numbers etc. she was really annoyed because these were "baby questions" and said she wanted to leave, but has fun when she sings or dances or does crafts.

4) Is it a problem? The things to watch for are
a) is she showing signs of perfectionism? Is she willing to take risks that might call her smartness into question?

She does show signs of perfectionism. She draws so well that it is the main thing her teacher comments on, but today when she was drawing a deer, she crumpled it up and threw it in disgust because it didn't look like she wanted it to, yet it is so amazing for her age. I am quite good at looking at something and drawing it and she had me draw her pictures when she was younger and she is frustrted that she can't draw as well as I can. I see this perfectionism in other ways too. I have the same problem but have learned to allow mistakes with age. I don't re-read my posts and let them contain all sort of errors whereas in the past, I would need it to be "perfect." I have to watch myself and not do anything to increase that tendancy in either one of us.

b) is she learning that she isn't one of the group?

I don't think she feels like one of the group. I also don't think she ever feels a real peer situation. We met a bright boy her age at the park yesterday and she kept talking to the mother and I told her she could talk to him directly. She just doesn't expect little ones to be able to really communicate on the same level and I imagine that could be strange for her. She loves to be the leader and perform for people so maybe she will never feel part of the group. I am not sure if I ever felt part of the group even though I was popular. Apparently, she is popular with the other kids which surprises me since she can be bossy and volatile.

c) is she left with so much energy that isn't being satisfied at school that she is hard to manage at home?

Other moms say their kids are worn out after preschool, but she is bouncing off the walls and we have to find things to do.

d) is the room 'play based' or 'academic readiness - based' - one would expect her to do much better in a play based room.

Mostly playbased,but they do a few "academic" things during circle time that are way way below where she is.

5) [b]Is there a play based room for older children availible so that one could try a trial to see how she does with older children? [/b]

Yes, and the director may be open to having her visit that room but they worry about her being so small and all immature goofiness.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and to ask questions.

LOL - lively!

But not LOL:
It makes me so sad to read your answers to my questions. Please demand that she be placed with the older kids for a trial. They can always move her back. Plenty of well meaning professionals, who have good strong observation skills, just do not have a clue what you are dealing with on a full time basis. Although I would bet that if you shared with the observer what you just shared with us, that she or he might have a lightbulb moment and be your best supporter. Maybe. You have to remember that in America, we have a political agenda that 'all men are created equal' and this has really kept us immature about having a nuanced view of individual children having individual educational needs. I truly believe that every human has equal value, and should be treated equally under the law, but we need to accept that part of the US 'default setting' is to be very suspisious of anyone being 'too different.' We don't even have the slang to refer to what we do as some other countries do - see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome


This information about LOG is just not 'out there,' even in gifted literature, all gifted is supposed to be 'essentially like MG, only more so.' That is a load of well, that stuff that makes the flowers grow, shall we say?

Good for you for becoming an expert at spotting your own perfectionism and loosening up! You Go Girl!!!

To me, your daughter is clearly not enjoying school. As a group, extroverted girls tend to work hard to put their hearts aside and make the best of any social situation. So her outward appearance isn't enough to say that she is happy, especially when she is sharing that she doesn't want to go to school.

Celebrate that you have come this far, and put on those big girl panties to take another step. (If that is what your heart is telling you, of course)

Either way - keep us posted!
Love and More Love,
Grintiy

thanks for the note, Grinity. I will mull over what you said. I think one issue is that I feel unsure of her LOG and even wonder if it will all peter out in a few years and don't want to over extend her, but the thought of kindergarten years from now covering things she did awhile back, does seem so wrong. I guess I am as confused as ever...sigh...

re-read Deb Ruf's book, now called 5 levels of giftedness. Your dd's giftedness would be unusual even at a gathering of kids in the Davidson YSP. Really.

your DD will not peter out in a few years

Really??? What are you basing this on? I mean, I certainly agree that OP's DD seems to be gifted, and is likely to be HG+, but there's nothing that I can remember her saying that strikes me as indicative that her DD would necessarily be at the top of the PG range. (And I will admit that it scares me to hear someone say that, when my DD has had similar milestones, IIRC.)

Srry NoNo - maybe I'm misremembering ((shrug))

I don't have Ruf's book in front of me, nor all of TT's posts - here's an early one:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....level_does_this_sound_lik.html#Post62742

I think might be misremembering that TT's DD was 'reading-reading' as a young 2 year old. I think this is unusual amoung DYS. I don't think it's the only criteria for giftedness. My son read at age 6, so maybe it overly impresses me.

But more than the milestones, it's the quality of memory from that thread, that makes me think this little one is a solid 3, or more. DYS is by no means soley populated with 5s. Anyway, I'm not sitting there with the book and a highlighter, sadly, that's TT's job, and yours too.

Funny story: I read 'Genius Denied' while trying to figure out what was up with my little one. I was looking for any excuse to deny giftedness. I read the story about the boy who nibbled cheese into the shapes of US states at age 2. I breathed a sigh of relief - my son certianly never did that! So I decided that my son must not be more than 'regular gifted.' Logical? Not really. A few years later we got the test scores and applied to YSP. And I laughed at myself.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

LOL. No problem, Grinity. I just read that and sort of flipped out a bit. I don't think I'm in gifted denial, but I'm perfectly happy with my current perception of DD as being maybe at a lower DYS level (and a level 4 according to Ruf).

Okay I have never read the "Genius Denied"...but the reference to the little boy nibbling cheese made me smile!!! My daughter used to nibble nearly everything into states! LOVE IT!

hey everyone! I was thinking it is the early reading that tends to over impress people, even people with gifted kids, and that is why Grinty assumed she was so high in her LOG. It is probably my fault for saying she was reading at two when really,she was starting at two but was really reading as the year progressed. She was reading easy readers mid to late 2, and only doing sight reading at early to mid two if I remember it all correctly. I have videos of her putting letters on the fridge and changing words from things like mad-dad-bad when she was two something, but that is as specific as I can be at the moment. I know she was trying to sound things out really really early but I can't remember exactly when. She did know letter sounds well before two but that doesn't impress me because my two year old did the same thing so I guess I think that is typical.

There are other things in RUFs LOG that she didn't do at a freakishly early time so she is all over the place so it will be interesting to see what happens long term! It is weird how one can sometimes be comforted when they have traits in the lower LOG. I also know how some of you feel though when you are comforted by hearing about another child who did something way beyond your own. It makes things seem more normal in your home. I actually feel relief hearing about children more advanced. I am not even comfortable assuming she will be gifted let along REALLY gifted yet!

When my oldest was in pre-school I knew nothing about gifted. We started in a Waldorfish preschool and that was a total failure for her. I moved her to a Montossori school.... Looking back on it, it really did not work for her. She tolerated it. She complained about going and then when she was there if I snuck a peek she seemed happy enough. The same thing happened in elementary school. In fourth grade I moved her into a school and class that was mostly gifted. She changed and I got to see what she looked like when she was genuinely happy in school and it felt really different. I don't know if that helps or not....

Hey girl....It is good to "see" you again. I agree with Gritney about asking to have her moved into the older class for a trial. It is so hard to know what will work, but try can't hurt and might do a world of good. I know our DD's are very similar, and I don't think they will peter out so to speak. I am not sure with your DD, but Ansley firmly fits in level 4, and I know from your posts that our DD's are very similar. Have you had an opportunity to assess where your DD is grade level wise. I am lucky with my mom working at a school, but DD was given the DORA...which is a reading assesment exam, as well as a math exam that I know many schools use... although I believe it is avialable for homeschool use as well. Anyway, it was very eye opening for me as I found that DD at 3.2 is reading on 1st grade 9 month level...with subtests in the high 2nd grade level...and math at a low first grade level. Anyway, I knew that she was going to need more, but the thought now of her in Kinadergarten a little over 2 years from now is just frightening. Anyway, just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you.

Thanks, that actually does help because it sounds somewhat similar. My biggest concern right now in preschool and down the line in kindergarten is that her intense energy, her love of challenging authority, and her desire to lead, will cause problems in her classrooms as they start to do more formal learning that contains things she did years ago and she is annoyed by it.

Hi "Amazed"


Nice to "see" you too. Are you planning on home schooling? What is your DD interested in these days? I love hearing about her and miss reading your posts :-)

My DD is somewhat hard for me to assess because she only wants to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it, so if I ask her something, she might not want to "play" that game, but she clearly is beyond kindergarten, but I don't know how far beyond in what subjects.

My DD told me that this observing teacher had her read words, try to read the clock, do some math, skip count, draw pictures, spell kid's names in the air etc, but when I spoke to the teacher, she didn't tell me a thing about this and didn't say she did any particular test and for some reason, I didn't ask her about it. I almost think she just wanted to see if the rumors were true and she did these things.

I am unfamiliar with the Dora. I tried to find vocabulary lists of first grade words and they seemed like very, very easy words so I am assuming her vocabulary for reading and understanding is quite a bit beyond that but I don't really know where to find any sort of testing instrument to see where she falls.

The strangest thing to me when searching online is bumping into all these tools that seem to complicate something so simple. There are all these flashcards, and lessons, and online games to teach something that just comes naturally for her and did for me. I honestly worry what school will be like if they break things down in that way and expect her not to lose her mind just a little bit...

Yeah, for now we are going to homeschool. Not sure if we will for good but I don't really feel like we have many options here. We live I'm a pretty small rural area and there is not a gifted program and unfortunatly most of the kids here do enter k without knowing the alphabet much less how to read.

The Dora assessment stands for diagnostic online reading assessment. It is for k- 12. I will ask my mom for the website cause I know they have something parents can pay to acsess it for one child. I'll pm you it.

I hear you about how dd seems to just learn things so easily and does not need all the teaching tools. The other day she started counting by 5s which I knew I had never told her how. When asked she responded "I heard you doing it when you were rolling coins." she just picks things up. Which I worrry about school to.

She is still really into space, human body,really anything science. She's been working through a 1 st grade science workbook and it is supper easy. She us also really really into writing notes snd stories. Although for some of her longer stories I have her dictate them to ne cause she can go more smoothly. The stories are hysterical.

It's really funny because my new neighbor who is moving in is a k teacher and she said after spending time with dd that she would right now at 3.2 be the top student in her class. And she asked me "what are you going to do about k?" I told het homeschool and she said "oh thank god. That's the best thing you could do for her. There is no way I could differentate enough in a class for her on the level she is now much less where she will be in 2 years" I thought this was pretty interesting comment comminb from someone who knows the k curriculum here. Anyway, I am lucky cause we have this option. Anyway, getting my hair done as I type this snd got to go lol... But I will get that info and pm u.

Thanks Amanda. My DD also has always loved science. What is the name of the workbook your DD is using? Its too bad you weren't located somewhere where you had more options. Right now I plan on having her to go public kindergarten after her next year of preschool, but if the things she is doing after the end of preschool next year are simply so far ahead it would be strange, I will reconsider. I would consider homeschooling but she is so extroverted and so intense that I honestly need a couple hours here and there just to catch my breath esp. since she has a little sister who is also a live wire. My DD also doesn't want to learn from me directly at this point which really saddens me because I worked in education myself at some point (but know very little about early education / testing). I'd love to hear what resources you are using so we can try new things. Enjoy your little dynamo.

It might be easier (and it certainly would be cheaper) to figure out a child's reading level by simply looking up the level of a recent book the child has read independently (and without previous familiarity).

I'm concerned about this as well, which is another reason why I think that a trial period with the older kids is a good thing to ask for now...

You DD reminds me so much of my DS, and yes, he found that it was quite interesting and very satisfying to drive the classroom teachers crazy, and there was so little else for him to do with his time. Part of me wonders if all of those personality traits are inborn for her, or, at least partially, a result of not being placed with peer or given necessary stimulation by teachers.

When my son was 3 or 4, I was totally clueless that he was different from his classmates, so you are way ahead of me.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hi No5no5

Yeah that is a great idea, but it is hard for outsiders to comprehend how utterly frustrating it is since my DD refuses to read to me 99% of the time. I'll catch her reading all manner of things and telling me what things say and once in awhile will sit down and read me a book, but I don't think I can glean from those things where she COULD perform. I really don't need to know, just had a moment of curiosity. The vocabulary that she can read is enormous and has very advanced words but her fluency and confidence isn't at the same level so I am am always left scratching my head what she really knows. She tends to hide things rather than reveal them esp. if she senses people are assessing her in any way, but then turn your back and she reveals things that make me (and others) raise eyebrows and think "hey I didn't know you knew that!" Is your child more cooperative with showing you what she knows?

I think perhaps because I've never pushed her to show me anything, she's never bothered to hide anything from me. She is reading to me right now (and the fact that I'm obviously ignoring her to write this post should be an indication of how often she does that). The flip side is that of course there could be many things that she can do that I'd never know, because I don't really ask her to show me things.

There are a number of different skills that go into reading level, and fluency and interest are part of it. I think it's relatively common for kids to be able to decode much higher level words than the books that they can read fluently (or that they want to read fluently). DD can probably decode at a 6th grade level or beyond, but I wouldn't call that her reading level since she'd be bored to tears reading a 6th grade book from start to finish. I've seen her read 4th grade level books cold, so, as far as I'm concerned, that's her level.

Also I think it is pretty common for new readers to be reluctant to read in front of people who react to their reading. My DD basically refused to read in front of my parents the last time they visited after my silly dad made a fuss when she read a street sign.

Anyway, all that to say: give it some time. As you said, you really don't need to know, and by the time you've figured it out it's likely to change anyway.

This reminds me of the embarrassment I had as a young reader with a much larger sight vocabulary compared with my speaking vocabulary. I still don't really know how to pronounce Persephone because I got caught saying it wrong, and now can't remember which was the mistake and which was is correct. As an adult I get around it by saying 'you know, the wife of Hades?' - luckily it doesn't come up in conversation that often!

this is such an unnecessary point, but I associate the myth of Persephone so much more so with the abduction, Demeter's loss & mourning, and the seasons, oh yeah, and pomegranates that I might call her the maiden-who was abducted--ate seeds--mother mourned--earth mourned--retured and the earth bloomed. OK your way is better than that :-) She was so reluctant in her role as wife to Hades that I resist identifying her that way. I had no idea I felt so strongly about a mythical figure LOL

I've always said it this way per-SEF-o-knee like Per-Stephanie if you take out the T. Is that how you say it? Wait, where do you go where you sit around and talk about the queen of the underworld anyway? I don't move in those circles anymore LOL

Mr W (26 mos) spends his first hour with older kids as a trial. He has been ready for months - just has some potty issues to work on. We've been getting some resistance to going to school lately and Mr W has indicated he wants stay in the older classroom.

Other than one kid in his normal class, who is a real hard charger, he prefers being with the older kids. And the older kids just love him once they get past his size issue. I had two 5 year olds come up to me last week and tell me that "Mr W is a lot of fun! We taught him so many things! He learns really fast!"

They have to watch MR W with his age peers as he will try to do things with them that they are not ready for. He likes for one of them to sit in the wagon while he pushes it at high speed. Not good. And they pick up things from him that are dangerous for them - i.e. he can use a sharp knife to cut up food, etc. This is another reason for him to be with older kids. He may get some lumps, but at least he won't be handing them out to kids who are not ready for it. They also have to do something else with Mr W during class lessons as he will blurt out the answers.

I think a trial move is worth it. Your DD will really enjoy it and with her charisma she will become a fixture for the older kids.

Haha, reminds me of DS in K when he walked up to the teacher's easel and started reading the instructions to the class...the class that was still working on "B = Buh"




haha again!! Me, too...my word was/is Aristotle (I prounounced it during an oral report as ahWRISTtoetoe) I still have to consciously think how to pronounce it correctly. My teacher didn't correct me, I found out later on my own how to pronounce it and I STILL feel embarrassed that I performed that report mispronouncing that name over and over...argh! Nan