I've been mentally turning over a constellation of observations about DS3.5 over the last few weeks, debating whether there is "something" at play in some of his behaviours. Is he just a bright boy with some overexcitabilities, normal EF for a 3 year old, and resulting asynchronies, or is there some other factor at play?

For regulars, this (LONG) list below will be largely redundant. In a nutshell, this is DS3.5:

Cognitive

• Very verbal from early age, short sentences ~6 months, speaking like an adult at ~1.5-2
• Self-taught basic phonetic reading pre-2, but with little apparent progression. He will occasionally "slip up" and read large print signs at museums or in public, or playfully read words out of books upside down, but refuses to read to himself or me because it is "too slow".
• Well developed and mature sense of humour (esp. word play)
• Intuitive basic numeracy from an early age
• Mechanically driven-- loves to disassemble and build; favourite toys have been real tools since 1
• Impeccable memory--never forgets ANYTHING, remembers ALL words in 100+ page books after hearing them once and will (vociferously!) correct me if I mis-read anything; is a walking encyclopedia
• Fast processing speed, when motivated-- noticed within 2 seconds that a photo on the wall had been changed after we were away on vacation for a week; can complete a 10-item hidden picture puzzle in under a minute; can solve mazes targeted at 5-6 year olds in seconds with his finger
• Seemingly endless attention span when interested
• Needs constant stimulation and has difficulty initiating solo play without someone to converse with

Social/behavioural

• Well developed social skills when motivated, but is mostly disinterested in other children (save for a best friend age-peer, who he plays well with) and prefers adult play partners
• Makes good eye contact, goofy faces, modulates voice as telling stories, has a flair for the dramatic
• Reads others' emotions well
• When unmotivated, refuses contact or ignores others (e.g. hardly ever hugs or kisses--and is never required to do so; will not answer questions or respond to conversation
• Feels threatened by close proximity of others or rapid movement, particularly of children
• Hard to tell "can't" from "won't"--e.g. Jigsaw puzzles. Despises them. Will fight tooth and nail to avoid completing a puzzle but, when "forced", will complete it quickly with minimal assistance (e.g. being handed pieces and being asked, "where does this go?").
• Has great difficulty getting started on a task or seeing next steps, and will melt down
• Physically overexcitable and will hit/wrestle when stimulated, without the intention of being violent. He is aware he does this and will increasingly sequester himself to a calm space when he does this.
• Talks and moves incessantly. Will interrupt conversations and seeks out constant conversation/narrative with nearby parent. When engrossed in an idea, will jump excitedly and gesticulate enthusiastically. Bounces, rolls, jumps, climbs, and wiggles when watching favourite shows, but is calm when reading books.
• Can take him anywhere; he is frequently complimented at restaurants and in public for being unusually well behaved.
• Will abandon games within a few minutes despite knowing how to play, and doing so well
• Difficulty with transitions; needs lots of scaffolding and encouragement to shift gears.

Physical

• Refuses to do any art or craft activities (drawing, painting, clay modeling)
• Limited interest in Lego or blocks, but builds elaborate structures out of disposable plastic cups (e.g. 5-foot tall tower wtih 50+ cups) and other household materials
• Handy with tools (screwdrivers, hammers, cleaning supplies)
• Helps preparing meals (cutting, spreading, pouring, measuring) and does so with virtually no spills, and will voice, "It's no big deal" if he does spill.
• Some evidence of cross dominance with hands--prefers right for unilateral activities; prefers left for bilateral activities
• Doesn't do ANY self-care without assistance-- dressing/undressing, feeding, hand washing (other than ripping off coat or boots)
• Is able to run, jump, climb, swing, kick, throw well, but disinterested in most sports. Can't (or won't?) climb stairs with alternating legs.
• Only just started tolerating playground play this month. Previously refused in a fit of tears to climb or swing on anything.
• Photosensitivity, tactile defensiveness (water, food, hugs/kisses), vestibular difficulty (until recently avoided all playground equipment, doesn't like to be on elevated surfaces or tipped backward)
• Great difficulty falling and staying asleep.

Well, if you've stayed with me, thank you.

I read this piece on NVLD yesterday and had a mini freak-out because it sounded exactly like DS:


I've picked up a copy of Webb et al's "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults".

Thoughts? I see many of the ADHD traits in DS on the Weiss Symptom checklist (http://www.caddra.ca/pdfs/caddraGuidelines2011WSR.pdf), the selective fine motor refusal has me puzzled, and the hyper-verbal and memory qualities of NVLD, combined with puzzle and art refusal, has me thinking some further investigation may be warranted, although he shows lots of ability in other spatial tasks. Then there are the glaring sensory processing issues around vestibular and tactile defensiveness. I'm inclined to shop this list by his pediatrician to see if she feels any evaluations are warranted.

Then again, he may just be 3, used to having an attentive Mummy around 23/7, and developing frustration tolerance.

I have a lot of experience with 3 year olds, and even gifted 3 year olds. But I don't think I have known a 3 yr old in person at quite the LOG of your ds. I am inclined to say just 3. But I bet you will get some more informed opinions.

I would have thought most kids could spell their name more easily than write it.
I think you will have to watch and wait. Maybe concentrate on increasing self care so you have an easier time. That said kids that age do need help with washing and dressing and are still learning so it is no big deal.

Given the ability to handle small tools in an expert fashion, it doesn't immediately match NLD for me with the quick scan I did of the NLD article.

Cognitively and behaviorally, sounds quite similar to my PG child at that age range (although mine was not yet really a reader, that happened about age 5 and he adored jigsaw puzzles, otherwise much the same). That child also didn't really like Legos until about age 7, but would build big structures out of cans, blocks, shoes, etc... He also wasn't super interested in self-care... until he was...

I wonder re: the other aspects about sensory issues or just plain old asynchronous development combined with high LOG which makes things seem even more out-of-the-ordinary. I would monitor but don't know that I would worry too much. Others may have more expert opinions.

I dunno! I think that much of what you've written sounds like an adorable and delightful 3 year old who is possibly quite bright, maybe gifted. OTOH, I see some red flags for motor coordination. What does his ped say about the motor observations?

To be honest, I suspect that for most of us with 2e kiddos, nothing was very obvious at 3. My ds has Developmental Coordination Disorder in a way that impacts his life tremendously, but I didn't see any of it at 3 years old - I just saw a cute bright kid who had a few quirky little oddball things going on like late talking, not "bothering" to crawl etc. DS also passed all ped "surveys" and well-child visits with flying colors even though in hindsight when he finally was diagnosed at 8 the neuropsych could easily pull a huge number of examples of delays in early childhood milestones that the ped never took notice of. I think it's really easy with high-cognitive-ability kids to brush aside any other concerns such as perhaps hand dominance or the way your ds is climbing stairs, so you are actually in a good place for your ds in that you are noticing and paying attention to each of these things.

Are they issues or challenges? It's quite possibly way to early to really know. Talk to your ped about them, maybe ask for an OT or PT assessment to look into it further. I wouldn't devote much energy to googling things such as NLD etc... there are so many symptoms that are shared between NLD/Autism/DCD/ADHD/etc, as well as being things that sometimes completely NT kids also struggle with. It's quite likely that the best answer to "what's up" isn't going to happen with one eval or in one moment or any time soon. For most of us with 2e kiddos, understanding what was up took years, and definitely took a step into the school years to see the impact of their challenges.

Brief summary: most likely, he's fine. You have some concerns, so bring them up with your ped. If you think a specific type of assessment would be helpful, ask for a referral (I'd ask for OT or PT referral). In the meantime, try not to overthink it. Let the professionals sort out what they can.

Sending you a big hug!

polarbear

ps - has your ds had a vision screening? My totally NT dd had some of the same issues you mentioned above, due to poor vision.

Thanks Deacongirl. Maybe I'm in a crusty, fault-finding jerk mindset lately.

I've received similar references to him having a purportedly high LOG, but sometimes I don't see it. Maybe I'm too close to the source or have totally unreasonable expectations based on my own childhood. Probably both.

Take yesterday: he wanted to pretend to be a baby (he has been toilet training this week, and learned it inside a day after being told that diapers are expensive, and that we could buy more toys and books if he used the toilet, so there has been some identity shift). He wanted to pull out some homemade puzzles I made for him with 2-4 pieces from when he was <1...just little drawings of animals on cardboard. He literally would/could not put together a 2-piece elephant puzzle that he did at 5 months! When handed the pieces, he immediately said, "Oh, the elephant!" And proceeded to stare at them blankly. He wouldn't tell me if he honestly couldn't do it or if he was playing baby after 5 minutes of my waiting.

The reading has me puzzled. Other than asking him to sound out one word from the title of a few books we read at bedtime, I don't do any pushing on reading. Lately he has gotten really angry and will turn his head away when I even ask him to read one word in a day, so I've backed off completely and do nothing literacy-wise other than read the mountains of books that he requests daily (admittedly, I love our snuggly reading). It puzzles me that he was apparently self-taught in basics so early, and seemed highly motivated to read and spell at the time, yet has no desire to progress to independent reading. For instance, DH found a little spelling app when he was early 2, in which you drag letters into slots to spell words that match pictures, and he demanded to do the whole thing (probably ~500 words) in a few days. The dramatic shift from stratospheric to nonexistent interest is what has me concerned. Maybe there is more going on underneath the surface that I'm observing. I don't see any other vision issues, but I wonder if that merits investigation. We had a disastrous reaction to a pediatric ophthalmologist in the fall.

Thanks ConnectingDots. I've had my eye on the sensory stuff for a while, as I had similar vestibular issues as a child (and still do as an adult). It's a fine line between watchful waiting and seeing pathology where it doesn't exist, I find!

Exactly my thoughts. That was the impetus for the push to toilet training. He's been ready for over a year, just didn't believe he could until recently.

it may be something as simple as asynchronous development or something to monitor... DS4 is not quite as high LOG as your son is displaying, but at 3, he hated anything to do with drawing, writing, art and from what we seen, DS is very age average physically but mentally ahead. We plan to do an OT evaluation this summer since his motor skills are his weakness and we don't want it to be a weakness that holds him back or frustrates him - I understand from our discussion with the psychologist we consulted (the one we did testing with) that as long as his motor skills are age appropriate right now, the gap between his motor and mental levels is not an issue, but if his motor skills fall below age appropriate, then it is a cause for concern. The earlier you catch specific gaps, the easier it is to correct... but we do have family history with LDs like dysgraphia hence we need to monitor more closely.

However, having said that - as I mentioned, DS at 3 hated, hated anything art, playdough or paper related. I don't know if it was his daycare environment or just he was not ready yet... but this year, he is in a GT school, and now, a year later, loves art and loves doing drawings. He is still age-appropriate for writing but he does not hesitate to draw (trucks, scenes etc - he happy finds the markers and pencils and gets busy, and his art club is one of his favorite activities at school now). I do not know how much is simply being in an environment where they do not push him to finish paperwork, but they expect everyone to put in best effort and simply make it fun. But whatever it is, at home, he is constantly drawing scenes and comes home with drawings that he made and writing they did in school.

And this was the year where suddenly, he really got into Lego and doing the Lego kits himself - even though the kits are for 7+, we just give him the book and kit and he does it all himself now. He used to ask me to help with stickers and now he figured out how to get them onto the tiny legos himself - so the only time we get involved is if there is something he can not do yet due to a motor skill or if something got slightly out of alignment and we need to trace back where it is. Before this year, despite all the blocks and duplos (we have a younger child so we limited certain toys until this year due to choking hazards when she was in the mouthy stage), he was eh about blocks. His sister at 2.5 has been way more into the duplos then he was at the same age.

I'm just a layperson/parent but a lot of this sounds like reasonable asynchronous stuff for a gifted kid. Things can be all over the map (and frequently are!).

Also regarding to reading... how sensitive is he to feeling like being a trick pony? DH and I suspect that DS is very sensitive to this and focuses a lot of energy into blending in - we had no idea he could read until months after his shadowing day at the GT school at 3.8, and they said he was reading words off the wall. So DH asked him and he said "I just wanted to surprise you." So we don't push him. Even today, with books I know he can read, if he wants us to read, we just read - and have not pushed him to read to us.

Polarbear, all hugs and advice gratefully accepted! To save space, I haven't quoted your extremely helpful post.

Yes, you're so right about googling. Nothing good is coming from that.

In a nutshell, I think you're right that the "answer" to this will probably unfold over time. I'm trying to disentangle what is probably normally developing EF and frustration tolerance from possible motor issues. DS has easily passed all his motor milestones up to his 3 year well child visit, and was early on several (dragged himself to my breast the night after birth; never crawled, started walking at 9mo; very early hand coordination for pincer grasp and tool use). But he has quirks that stand out, like the stairs--he'll only use his right leg to climb--and the arts and crafts refusal (while eagerly helping me build shelves or do woodworking).

What concerns me is the drop off in motivation in areas of previous interest, like the reading. If it's organic, that's fine. Passions wax and wane. I just don't want to have some physical impediment stymie an interest.

I think it's worth shopping these observations by his ped to see if she feels an OT or development vision evaluation is merited.

My not-at-all-professional opinion is that there are significant contraindications here, so no worries.

NVLD - Whiz at hidden picture game. He can do a puzzle well, he just prefers not to. Some of his food preparation activities are direct analogs to cutting and pasting. Handling a screwdriver requires more coordination than handling a pen or a paint brush. My strength is in non-verbal, and I also had limited interest in Legos/blocks, zero interest in art projects.

ADHD - Well behaved in public. Focused on reading. The bouncing around during TV shows is probably indicative of the fact that it leaves a lot of his cognitive power unused.

So, rather than these two hypotheses, I'd propose that some of your concerns indicate he's exhibiting some task-avoidant perfectionism, he's extremely extroverted, and displays some overexcitabilities/sensitivities. None of these are a second E, but they're worth working on.

As for the social connection with other kids and preferring adults, I wouldn't worry about that for now, although it would probably be worth looking into connecting him with older kids, if possible.

This happened (re reading) with my dyslexic dd. It also happened with my 2e ds who really doesn't have any reading challenges - or so we think. When he did pick up reading he picked it up like gangbusters and was reading at an extraordinarily high level. Now in high school I sometimes wonder about his reading comprehension. Deciphering what's what with 2e kids isn't easy! With my dyslexic dd, it was definitely related to a true challenge that impacted reading. I think it's always worth listening to your gut - if you test and then find out everything's ok, that's ok! And it will save a lot of worry. If you test and find out there is a challenge, then you'll be very happy that you looked into it while your ds was still young.

polarbear

Aquinas, sending you a pm.

Overall, I think it is too early to be concerned; I think Dude's hypotheses have quite a bit of merit.

OTOH, there are things I would keep an eye on, such as the bilateral coordination--not because of any link with dyslexia (yes--since found to be bogus), but for purely OT/PT reasons. I would also be observant about what his actual level of reading decoding skill is, whenever he lets a hint slip out. With his oral vocabulary and cognitive language abilities, it is perfectly reasonable that his own decoding skills, even if they are, say, at a third-grade level, might feel too slow for the level of text that he wishes to access. At the same time, after two years of reading (though covert), some level of automaticity in word calling might be imagined to have emerged (i.e., faster, more fluent reading).

I wouldn't bother with formal testing of the cog/ach/neuropsych type at this age, though, as you will most likely be assessing compliance and time-to-fatigue more than anything else.

Waxing and waning: well, he's still in the age-range for which food jags occur among many NT kiddos. No reason that might not happen for other interests as well.

In any case, even if, worst case, there is something that needs remediation, it is highly unlikely that anything irreversible will happen in the next couple of years without him making you unmistakably aware of it by his distress first.

aquinas, I can understand why you are concerned. More than a 1/3 of what you wrote applies to my DD4.

Her life functions are not severely impaired but I am starting to worry about her a lot. I don't really understand her and she and I are very close. A lot of DD's issues come down to compliance but she also seems very ADHD.

For us, despite some of the problems we've had, sending her to a small school where she was forced to socialize with children of all abilities was the right call in the long run. It hasn't been easy and when she comes home complaining about feeling lonely and disconnected, my heart aches for her but it turns out a lot of the problems was caused by her social rigidity (my way or highway). She can't always pick and choose people she has to work with, even when she is an adult so I wasn't comfortable with limiting her socialization to the few friends she has chosen. We are trying to give her life skills and remediate some of her ADHD traits even if they never become severe enough to get a diagnosis.

So I agree with Dude. Even if the behaviors do not add up to a disability, they still need to be addressed if they are having a negative impact on his development.

This seems normal given his age. When DD10 was younger she would often regress just before a developmental milestone and demonstrate major OEs. Even at 8 she would have spates of over regularizing verbs and saying things like "I amn't" instead of "I'm not". These episodes have become more sporadic as her developmental arc's gradient has flattened. He is probably working on his sense of self as an autonomous being also - which is utterly normal.

Take all of the above with a large pinch of salt because I am a total amateur with this stuff.

I just realized that our YDS (now 5) also did that climbing/descending stairs with one leg first (i.e., that leg moved first each time, the other pulled or stepped after it) and has stopped doing so without my realizing it until just now! He also used to hang onto the handrail for what appeared to be dear life. :-)

Funny - my DD10 still descends stairs this way, and I can't figure out why. She does other things well (riding a bike, skating) but this has always puzzled me. She _can_ use alternate legs but seems to prefer going one step at a time.

OTOH, my DS7 (who may have DCD) does stairs just fine. Although he does share some other similar traits to the OP's DS (hates to do arts and crafts, doesn't really do Lego).

I try to include less traditional art activities, like finger painting the wall of the bathtub with shaving cream, molding kinetic sand, painting stone tiles outside with water, drawing in sand with sticks, making nature art, etc just to give him an opportunity to build hand strength. We build some archaeological, paleontological, or geological digs out of plaster to extract "artefacts" every few weeks, which he enjoys.

His creativity seems to either be channeled toward weaving an elaborate narrative for imaginary play or building tangible, authentic things, like a shelf or science experiment. I guess I'll keep running with that! Maybe he'll develop an interest in more artsy activities like your son as he matures. Either way, I'm happy so long as the choice is a true choice and not one made for him by a physical impediment.

I think there's some resistance to showing something he feels he hasn't mastered. He is very much a child who either observes and internalizes a process before acting, or who jumps in confidently and then withdraws at the first setback. Because he's not in an outside care environment, there isn't a concern about him masking ability to achieve peer or teacher acceptance.

I'm trying to override some of those initial responses to failure through some fun activities like riding a scooter. Case in point: day 1- DS careens excitedly down hills, whooping and delighted. Day 2- DS falls twice, refuses to try again, and has to be coaxed to make another attempt. He puts out a feeble effort, then, after half an hour of being urged on, decides it's fun again.

Temperamentally, I am cut from the same cloth when it comes to intial reactions, so I should know better!

Thanks for all your thoughts, notnafnaf.

All good, common sense advice. Thanks for the shot in the arm, Dude.

DH has a dyslexic sibling, so I'm keeping an eye on it given the early self-start and stop. DH and I were both early self-sufficient readers (him 3ish, me 2ish), though I asked to be taught and didn't crack the code independently. We shall see.

I should add that DS did something similar with talking: lots around 5-7 months, then mostly silence again until about 14-15 months, when he started showing a strong interest in text, at which point the chatter resumed. I had the pediatrician check his ears a few times during well-child visits in between just in case! We all know how that talking thing turned out in the end.

Hugs and deep breaths being sent your way, Aquinas! I have to run out the door now, but expect a more in-depth response later. Until then, have a glass of wine and try not to stress!

The occasions where he's let slip have been mostly in public-- reading things like, "exhibit closed for construction" when he saw a plain notice on a directory of exhibits near the main elevators of a museum, or "parking garage full" on an electric sign. I recall checking that neither of those instances had pictorial clues, because my initial reaction was that perhaps the meaning could have been inferred from context.

The time where he read words upside down and backwards was in a Berenstain Bear's book. I looked up the book last night and found it had a 500 Lexile rating, which is grade 2ish. He's sounded out words here and there from stuff like Curious George and Leo Lionni books. I'm inclined to think that there's quite a difference, though, between being able to read a book cover to cover and reading snippets. So K/1? TBH, I have no idea what the different levels entail.


LOL! Elegantly understated! I imagine buying $1,000+ of wine would be a better idea what with his tendency toward subterfuge and playful doubletalk in everyday situations. He spends at least half his time in wonderful, imaginary worlds of his creation. I can only cringe at the thought of his responses to a rather long series of questions that, to him, seem so comically obvious that they must be an invitation for fanciful answers.

I can just see a tester asking him to point to a picture of a teapot and him gesturing to, say, a lawn mower. If asked for his rationale, he might say that the commercial tea crops on planet Snorgbot have been poisoned by his archnemesis and, as a precautionary measure, all residents are cutting and brewing their tea directly from their backyard crop in a teapot attached to a mower, ironically also called a Snorgbot, but with the emphasis on the second syllable. And then he'd demonstrate a war cry or attack manoeuvre on the tester. Or just totally ignore the tester and do whatever he wanted, looking like he's 2 SD below the mean! (*Aquinas pulls her hair out*)

I would put the odds of a compliant test at less than 2%.


I think you're right. I'll run my observations by the ped to see if she thinks an OT eval is warranted, or whether I should continue watchful waiting. Thanks aeh! I'm much obliged for the informal professional opinion.

Thanks mana. I'm trying to organize a mixed age play group through the local gifted advocacy chapter, as the homeschooling community is rather thin and all their regular meet-ups coincide with DS' nap. You'd think I was asking people to donate a lung, not meet up for an hour to kick a ball around.

All comments welcome! Wouldn't it just be easier if our kids came with a one page spec sheet to give us parents a fighting chance at not royally screwing them up?

Portia, this pretty much sums up my instinctive response. Our local children's hospital has a good sensory OT program for kids aged 5-12; I'm going to ask DS' ped (who has admitting privileges there) if she thinks an evaluation is warranted.

I've been very consciously trying to work on building strength and supporting vestibular processing by encouraging park play and taking him swimming (the latter with mixed results).

Thanks Marnie! You're a total doll. If you look to my reply to the lovely aeh below your post, you'll see we're on the same wavelength re: wine.

I've been doing piecemeal replies when I have a moment, but I just wanted to issue a general THANK YOU!!!! in case I've missed anyone (and I'm sorry if I have!)

This whole thread and set of PMs is an example of the reason why I love this forum so much. You're all so generous with sharing your experiences, and I'm truly grateful for your kindness to me.

500L is more like a typical 3rd grade reader, but a 2nd grade text level. At the K/1 level, Berenstain Bears are generally read-alouds. He is well beyond that level, just based on the snippets you've described. K/1 is largely cvc, cvce, some of the more common dipthongs, and about 100 of the 220 Dolch sight words, with most of those categories weighted toward first grade. Though of course, some districts run behind or ahead.

Thanks aeh, that's informative. Being a woman who likes a plan, I'll continue to read aloud books at interest level, but should I give him some quick, informal reading instruction at a higher than K/1 level as a confidence booster? If so, what would that entail? Lately, he has been asking me to read everything in our environment to him, including fine print on menus, traffic signs, food packaging. He especially wants ato read anything that looks like a warning sign! I've been operating on the assumption that just doing that alone will probably give him a good repository of sight words, and the fun challenge of being able to determine general phonetic rules from examples. It might be ineffective for supporting fluency, though. Lazy parenting, I suppose!

I don't think it is lazy parenting, and I could be completely wrong (or maybe lazy!) but I personally wouldn't be giving him reading instruction. (unless he asked for it) I tend to agree with your assumption.

Haha! If it's lazy, we can form our own little slug club. Our mascot can be an amorphous blob.

Portia, you always make such thoughtful comments, and you're so patient when I sound like a broken record. Thank you! I like the silly sentences idea--I think DS would appreciate the zaniness.

Pure awesomeness, Portia! Just delightful to read. I definitely have a huge cache of videos of DS laughing his butt off. Kids' laughter ought to be bottled, it's so fun! We have one of DS in hysterics from about a year ago at a "They Might be Giants" video where he falls over repeatedly because he's laughing so hard. I think I've watched it, oh, about 172 times!

Re. mirth, just as a precious to me as the memories of my daughter's laughter at her own, DW and my silliness with word games is the crestfallen fallen look on her innocent little face the first time she experimented with a joke that just was not funny. The transition from laughing her little head off to crestfallen as she realised that we were not joining in that time exposed her true vulnerable fragility and that just melted my heart.

There is a really good book, Tomfoolery, that provided her with a lot of fun too.

Hm, DS might like that. Thanks Portia!

Sent you pm Aquinas.

Wrote long post but decided to pm instead... :-)

Honestly don't have much more experience than you concerning this disorder but from what you describe, he seems to be a HG+ three year old meaning a whole load of wonderful and confusion to his parents! but then again I am no expert and if it's worrying you, I say go find the answer!

I have a similar tyke who just turned 3 who just underwent an evaluation because of his behaviour at daycare (Interacted with the teachers only if he actually needed something, no interest in other children because "they don't like numbers and learning about Mercury", obsessive play with water, extremely active and thus extremely exhausting but could stop in his tracks at the sound of any type of music and get lost in it, terribly defiant, clumsy walking, poor at drawing (although can draw a detailed man on command, eyebrows and all), no interest AT ALL in puzzles EVER and often lapsing into babytalk mixing French and English to the point they thought he was delayed (which was the polar opposite at home where his perfect use of grammar and vocabulary floors us much of the time). They used to say he fluttered like a butterfly from one activity to another, never really settling down etc etc the list goes on and on.

However, this is also the same kid who goes to three museums every week in one day because one wasn't enough (he started to go weekly at 18 months old at his request), going through each display totally hyperfocused and never missing a detail and has a scary memory. Has meltdowns if sounds are off-key or too loud to his taste. Obsessed with order yet can mess up a room in three seconds flat. Psychorigid to the point, that when we go for a walk my husband and I each have to take a specific place at his side otherwise he refuses to move. Doesn't give a rat's bottom if he gets reprimanded or punished but rather tries to deflect our anger by asking us immediately "are you angry?, nah don't be angry, it's not good to shout, shhhh, be happyyyy!" (it's totally infuriating btw )

We thought ADHD and/or autism spectrum. We worried and worried some more. We were saddened he never got invited on playdates or birthdays even though he had known these kids for most of his life. Adults loved him, kids thought he was not particularly pleasant to hang out with. He was an enigma and still is, so we decided to get him evaluated a second time (first was at 13 months upon our pediatrician's advice)

So he went through 4 sessions with a terrific psychiatrist and psychologist and we got this: most likely HG to PG but with no interpretable score on the WPSII (refused to answer the easier questions and kept rolling his eyes with boredom and staring to trash the eval room but perfectly scored on the more advanced ones beaming with pride)with Asperger-like traits due to his precocity but did not qualify for a autism spectrum diagnosis.

They also told us that ADHD diagnosis is most accurate at 5-6 years old but as his hyperactivity was linked to boredom more than constant, it was unlikely.

All of this to say, that getting an evaluation helped us relax and regroup and get support for our decisions. With the psychiatrist's ok, we took him out of daycare which he is super happy about and are now organising a support system in the new daycare we found and outside with a psychologist and ergotherapist. We are also moving in with my parents who have a lot of time to take care of him. We are less obsessed with trying to understand our little enigma's behaviour but more involved in trying things out on a day-to-day basis.Finally we can breathe a little even though lack of sleep still sucks. He told me he was happy for the first time last week.

So for us a psych eval, helped us help him better and certainly stress less. My advice would be if an eval will help you change his life for the better, go for it. Otherwise I'd say, continue to watch him closely and be the amazing mom you sound like you are.

Best regards,
Max's mom

aquinas - hugs, and your DS is lucky to have you as a parent. I think a HG+ DC at 3 can be perplexing, especially when they have any "extreme" personality traits or asynchrony. I remember being perplexed by my own DC (and I still am, at times). I cannot give you any answers, but you are such an attentive, caring parent!

Happy Mother's Day...enjoy your amazing DS and a glass of wine, too!

I think, first of all, that you are doing an amazing job in uncharted territory. This small human is not an easy one to raise, but your close observation will help a lot.

Second, the inconsistency between his abilities when watched vs. off-guard suggests it's not a physical issue (as Dude said). To me, especially given his age and the level of philosophical thought you've described before, it sounds like he's holding back in some areas to avoid independence and keep a close, age-appropriate relationship with his mommy. He may not truly believe you will still cuddle and read to him if he reads himself, for instance. He wants to keep a division-of-labor in his daily life that you do part of. He might worry that once he demonstrates an ability, he will have to do it perfectly all the time. He's able to understand the truth - that moving on from a toddler's independence level is a major change, and irreversible. That's going to be scary.

If I'm right, then these thoughts are having a significant life impact and are worth addressing. Mother's Day might be a perfect time to demonstrate that mothers stay in our lives for all our lives. Have a wonderful one!

I haven't read this whole thread but my thought about your DS is that he doesn't want to fail. So with reading, for instance, he does not want to risk trying and getting words wrong,so he's just not going to do it at all. DS was similar at that age. When I took him in for an IQ test (in his case we were investigating developmental delays), I was able to watch the test, and DS was randomly pointing at answers while smirking. He acted up and got silly/goofy. He was the same way at home whenever we asked him anything that resembled an academic question. Even if it was something simple that he should have no problem with, he shut down and refused to engage.

One thing that you could try with reading is to get him some audiobooks with the paper books to follow along, and just leave him alone with them. That's how DD learned to read. And of course, keep doing what you're doing and read to him as much as you want. When he is ready, he will probably just "take off" and read fluently with seemingly no effort.

DS has developmental coordination disorder and was able to walk up and down steps with alternating feet at age 3. This may be another thing where he is scared he might fail and doesn't want to try until he's sure of himself. At age 3 DS still scored in the average range for gross and fine motor but I knew something wasn't right because he was so deficient in terms of a few specific skills, like holding a pencil. He was able to write his name, albeit messily so he "passed" in terms of 3 year old skills, but then simply did not make much progress after that and rapidly fell down the percentile charts.

He would learn how to do things like skip (I think he was almost 5), but then forget. Now 3 years later, he still looks really awkward skipping. He looked really awkward doing a lot of things, but this "awkwardness" doesn't show up on standardized tests. The standardized tests for motor skills are not perfect, but you should probably get a motor skills assessment (for both fine and gross motor) and then get another one in about a year and make sure there is progress. The school did the Test of Gross Motor Development (or something like that) and the OT/PT always did the BOT2. The test that the school did was better at showing his issues.

Thanks so much, SAHM! Please expect a message in your inbox shortly. I've wanted to reply with equal thoughtfulness to your lovely, detailed message.

In fact, as a spoiler, your suggestions on several fronts were spot on. I'll stick to your comment about stairs below.

RE: alternating legs on stairs, you suggested that it might simply be an issue of lack of exposure to adult modeling, since children tend to walk slowly and adults match pace. That was exactly the issue! I consciously encouraged DS to alternate legs on the ascent over a few days and, PRESTO!, alternating legs on steps. He's still a bit tentative on the descent, but that will come with time.

Max's Mom, thanks for such kind, helpful words. I see many similarities between our boys, not the least of which is the delightful (and sometimes maddening) sneaky humour.

I will definitely be eager to hear how your little man's personality blossoms! He sounds like a card.


This made me laugh because, around 2.5, DS invented a game called "garbage dump" in which he collected everything in sight and piled it up inside a dishwasher box that we'd converted into a playhouse (he'd slip things through the doors and windows we'd made, then proudly tip over the house and show off his work.) One day, DH and I made the mistake of both making dinner for 10 minutes and, when we looked up, our living room and dining room had been completely trashed. Suffice it to say, the games on our ban list are: garbage dump and "Climbing Mount Mummy", in which DS unceremoniously scales my front using my ears, hair, and nostrils as finger and toeholds. (Yikes!)

My DD was so effing weird at 3. Does that help? I mean, that was an age at which I REALLY thought we were looking at a diagnosis. Some of her "stuff" was not dissimilar to what you descroibe, and these days none of that is really related to what concerns us. It's not known as a difficult age for nothing, and I think a lot of typical kids seem odd then. One of DD's friends who is now the most "normal" child you can imagine was virtually mute and seemed so terribly introverted at that point, with behaviors no one understood.

You probably will not like this advice, but it might be sort of instructive to get him into some group situations more often. You might get a better sense of what you are looking at, it's good to see what other adults see in his behvaior and how he does with other authority figures, and you could probably use a break.

Thanks so much, Loy58! There's a fine line between a caring, engaged parent and a hypochondriac, and I appreciate your very kind words and validation that confusion happens. What a lovely surprise to find on Mother's Day! Hope you and your family celebrated in style.

Aww, thanks!


I think you're spot on. DS has intuited that growing up in these areas is a bell that can't be un-rung, and he's holding onto our current roles while testing the waters of more independence secretly.

He's also keenly aware of mortality. Where most children seem to mentally tackle discrete chunks of time they see ahead in the future and proceed hunky dory, DS seems to be drinking in the entirety of the remainder of his life and anticipating events that will happen 15, 25, or 70 years down the line and his reactions through a 3-year-old's eyes. Yikes! We've talked about how much he will change between now and adulthood, and even in the next year. I've broken out a rough template of what "being 4" entails (spoiler: it's just 3, but with him fully toilet trained and occasionally doing more self-care) to demonstrate that change is an incremental process that only happens when he is ready.

We have a very close relationship, so I'm continuing to offer the comfort he's always sought (through nursing, cosleeping, lots of cuddles and silly free play, etc.) as an anchor to keep him grounded during all his internal development. If anything, I think I'm going to ratchet up our rough housing, sports, and silly play, because that connection helps him blow off steam and will continue to be age-appropriate pretty much indefinitely!

Haha! I guess we're all characters.


I'm not quite so aversive as you might think. I've been getting out and meeting a LOT of local groups and parents to find group activities where DS might enjoy meeting some new friends who share some of his interests. The challenge at this age is that so much of what is available is either infantile or top-down dictated.

I've found an open-ended, multi-age children's theater group for the fall in which DS would be one of the youngest participants. Given that he's the size of a 5 year old and tends to lead play, I am hopeful that he would enjoy creating imaginary worlds with 5-6 year olds. We've also started attending family open swim at a university, and it's giving DS an opportunity to play with some older children, which he enjoys. His preferred play partnership short of his parents, are boys in the 5-8 range.

I'm also exploring some multi-age sports clubs.

Most adults who meet him think he is a well-behaved 5 or 6 year old. And then he talks about something on his mind, like hematology or space elevators, and they don't know what to say.

I just love hearing about everyone's experiences here. Your son sounds wonderful!

My DD does not approach this LOG but I will tell you a couple of experiences that we have had.

At about 26 months she had quite a few words that she could recognize but was just starting to sound out new words to read. She was intensely interested in letters in every place she could find them and was trying desperately to read. She knew the sounds and would try to decode a word but was generally unable to transform the sounds she said and blended together into the word she knew (unless it was a memorized word). Then like a light switch it stopped. She refused all the things she had craved and only wanted me to read to her. About 6-7 months went by like that and then suddenly she picked up a book (easy reader) and read it cover to cover out loud. After that she was back to wanting to read on her own again and progressed quickly. She is a perfectionist and needed submerge the skill until she could do it well.

Another example would be art and to a lesser degree playdough/legos etc. At age 3 I would come to her preschool and she would excitedly tell me she had made me a picture. She would take me to her things and I would find a slightly scribbled upon paper that was cut into tiny pieces. Then she would spend 10 minutes telling me in detail about the picture. There were rare times that she would draw something detailed and nice so I knew the ability was there. I believe she just could not draw the picture she had in her imaginative mind and so she didn't really try.

I agree with encouraging sensory activities. If you have easy access to a good OT evaluation you could do it but it sounds like you could give it some time as well.