This is an offshoot from another thread I posted. Basically, in order to know where to place my son (currently in K), principal, teacher and psychologist want to evaluate him academically and have a psych eval. to know exactly what's going on w/him.

Brief background--he's been tested already (he's DYS). School officials don't have any issues w/grade skip or acceleration, but the building is K-3 and they think he might already know most of the curriculum. They can enrich him in reading, but math might be tricky--hence a complete academic workup to know exactly where he's at as far as curriculum goes. As for the social component, they're concerned. At times he gets in kids' faces, knocks down blocks, karate chops the air etc.; it's not all the time, he can certainly pull it together (he does every week for a science class he has after school) and I attribute it to mostly boredom and lack of being able to relate to the other kids. They agree, but also are concerned b/c they see these behaviors at times where it's not an academic setting and it interferes in his learning and his relationships w/the other kids.

Sooooo.....in order to get a complete picture of what's exactly going on, they also want a psych. eval. which has to be done by a psychiatrist. It's just interviewing him and talking to him for a bit.

My question is, should I be concerned about this? I did insist that whoever does the testing should have experience w/gifted kids etc. It sounds rather ominous, I don't know why though--maybe I'm afraid he'll be missed diagnosed or behaviors misinterpreted (he won't be observing --just taking into consideration school psychologists observations).

Anyone have experience w/this or can shed some light?

Thanks much!!!

Are they offering to pay for it? In my state there is some provision if the parent doesn't like the the results that they pay for a tester of the parent's choice - but that's not for gifted, only for special ed, and I don't even know if that's still true.

I don't think it's a cause for concern for him to be tested, but I would 'brush him up' on his 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' style 'power calm' and 'inner wealth' so that he behaves himself in front of the psychiatrist.

A complete academic workup sounds like a great idea. Can you agree to the complete academic workup first, and then do a trial at proper levels with an agreement tto do the psych eval if the transition doesn't go smoothly?

It seems like a stepwise approach will be safer.

It is possible to be bored in social settings, particularly when the agemates aren't intellectual peers in any sense of the word. It's also possible at this age that the child is trying to reproduce the behavior he perceives the other boys as exhibiting , perhaps without a lot of conscious thought, and by placing him with older boys, he'll start internalizing their behavior, which will be easier to understand and reproduce.

So if they are willing, I'd agree to a stepwise plan, where they evaluate the academics first, and then brainstorm some ideas, and then try them, and then take it to the next level with the psychiatrist if needed.

BTW, is it possible that they want an eval with a psychologist? Psychiatrists very often mean that they are interested in a diagnosis that requires medication. Is ADHD on the plate?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

We started out with a pediatric psychiatrist due our son's tantrums. The psych was really nice. When the kids are little like ours they primarily speak with the parents and request input from teachers.

The psych could turn out to be a great ally in the process.

honestly, if our school had been as accomodating as it sounds like yours is, I would jump through any hoop they asked.

But I agree with Grinity. Based on what I've been reading, especially if you have some idea the child is gifted, it's inappropriate to consider the behavior until the academic setting is correct. I think you should ask for a stepped approach. Or, like she's asking, do you think there is another Dx to consider?

Thanks so much for the responses!

Hmmm...a step approach sounds interesting, but they're line of thinking is let's have as much information as possible so they can place him properly. They're not against acceleration, but the principal is concerned that should he exhibit some of these behaviors if he's accelerated a grade (would have to be at least two), that older kids are more savvy and less forgiving of quirky behavior. The grade skip and more challenging work might take care of the problem, but if there's something else going on, it's really setting him up for a very difficult time.


ADHD isn't on the table (it's already ruled out by his first psychologist who did his IQ and Achievement tests). I think they just want to rule out that it is anything else. (I don't really know what else it could be).


ephoh--thanks, that's also good to know

Oh, and yes, they will pay for it

wait, you already have IQ and acheivement tests and NOW they want him to go to the psychaiatrist? First, why not just a psychologist...and if you have the test scores, why not a trial placement, or moving to the other grade half the day at first?

My DD8 has had issues, I have pulled her out of school and now we are evaluating her and shopping for schools. If the prospective school refuses to look at the report and try the suggestions before they want to talk about her past behavior,I don't think I'm going to be put her in a school like that...

When the school agreed to a mid-year skip for my son, it was contingent upon the school psychologist meeting with him and providing her thoughts on his maturity, ability to cope with change etc. I am quite surprised that the school has asked for a psychiatrist evaluation and that they are paying for it. That seems a bit excessive and Master of None might be right- it might be a way for them to say "No and here's why." I think you may want to meet with the psychiatrist in advance and find out what s/he is looking for, what the goal is and get a feel if the goal is rule in acceleration or rule it out.

Honestly for us, the school psychologist became our biggest ally. She fought hard for my DS long after the skip and continued to push the school principal.

What standardized instruments (if any) will that psychiatrist be using?

I'd be concerned about the social behavior too. It's perfectly possible to be DYS-level bright and yet also have something 2E going on. My DS has Asperger's and has issues with personal space, temper, and general social fit; ADHD can also be at the root of some kinds of social immaturity. Not saying that's what's going on here, just saying that looking for 2E is a good idea in that if you find something, you can address it.

You are right that these behaviors are outside the norm for his age/grade, and yes, if you skip him, they will be further outside the norm when he's among more mature kids. I would not assume that fixing the academic content will fix the behavior; sometimes it does, but if the child has something else going on, the something else needs to be addressed no matter where they're placed.

However, if it's "go talk to our psychiatrist," and it's just an interview, I don't think that's of significant diagnostic value. If you wanted to screen for 2E issues, you'd do a neuropsychological workup. A psychiatrist is unlikely to be the right person for this job.

DeeDee

I would want to know what he's being evaluated FOR, honestly. And it sounds very vague at this point. Again, why a psychiatrist vs a psychologist? Definitely ask a lot of questions and meet the evaluator before you agree.

Also, I agree that a trial period in the older classroom would provide some insight as to whether his behavior will change in the new setting. You mentioned an after-school science class that he does fine in. Are the other kids in that class older than him or more mature than those he is around at school? If so, it might be a good example of what he might be like in a different setting.

As for the older kids being less forgiving, this could be a good thing, IF the behavior is not a consequence of a 2E factor that he can't control. If he is just acting out from boredom, then a more stimulating environment plus more mature classmates should solve the problem. If you suspect 2E issues, though, I don't know that I would trust this evaluation from a school chosen psychiatrist. I would probably prefer a neuropsych eval from a doctor of MY choosing.

Just wanted to say that we are in the same boat, my son is not DYS, but close, yet has lots of other quirks that are starting to border on "possibly something more than just gifted."


The way I look at it,it can't hurt.

Wow! Lots of great thoughts and suggestions here.

@Amber-the only way I'm afraid it can hurt is b/c it's a psychiatrist who's used to evaluating according to a medical model/DSM IV etc. is that he might pathologize something that need not be pathologized. As opposed to someone who will look at the whole picture esp. someone who is familiar w/behaviors of gifted children.


@LNEsMom & DeeDee- good question--exactly what are they looking for!? He said a psychiatrist b/c it's just what they've always done. I don't suspect any 2E issues of ADHD and neither did the psychologist who did his first two evaluations (just found out he passed away last month : ( ) The science class is with older kids, but it's only for 1hr not 6 (that's what they said about that). Interesting point about kids being less forgiving as a good thing; sort of a "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" for behavior.


@2Gifted, Master of none, CAmom-- I don't think they're necessarily against acceleration, they just want to be sure that there's not something else going on that need to be addressed. That's why they want the psych. eval first, b/f they try anything and have to keep moving him around if one thing doesn't quite fit.

Honestly, I think he's bored and quirky (at times). The more I read your suggestions, the more I think that a Psychiatric interview is not the way to go. I'm thinking that if we get a couple of recommendations from the gifted school near us (we can't afford the $15,000 tuition) of psychologists they use, who are familiar w/gifted, that we should just have one of them do an eval. even if we have to pay for it ourselves. Sheeesh! People think that b/c you have a "smart kid" that life is just so easy...ummm.....not so much!!

I would be sure that whatever professional you take your gifted child to is familiar with this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707677

So much excellent advice.

In a way, I think that the 'lets get a Psychiatrist' involved and have all our information upfront, is a way, I think, of evaluating how much confidence you have that a better fit classroom will solve your son's problems. I like your 'When in Rome' way of stating it. Having social pressure is a good thing, if there are no other issues that outweight that in the mix.

I think that the school - perhaps unconsiously - is looking for you to say: "I understand that this is an unusual situtation and you want all the reassurance you can get that this is the right move at the right time, but let ME ASSURE you, that this situation is unusual enough that ONLY TIME WILL TELL. My son does show some unusual behaviors, but I am CONFIDENT that once the academics are of a proper fit, that we can parent him through the social difficulties. We are the parents. We are confident that the only additional tests he needs at this time are academic tests so that he can be placed in an appropriate mix of classes.We appreciate your flexibility so far, and want to assure you that if, in the future, we need to be flexible on the question of psychiatric evaluation, we will be. Finding the right blend is a process, like Rome, that won't be built in a day. All the preperation in the world won't mean as much as a 6 week trial.

Does that seem to fit? In the old days a child was skipped, transcripped altered forever, and that was the end of the process. Nowadays there should be follow up evals to see if it's working out, if it's too much or if it's not enough.

It's my feeling that they are (unconsiouly) looking for reassurance, and that simply reminding them that you are all working together for your son's benifit and showing personal confidence is all that they actually need right now.

To their credit, schoolies feel very responsible that if they skip a child they are changing the child's life forever. That didn't happen in our house, but I can applaud the seriousness with which they are approaching their role.

In the end, I'd fold faster than a cheap suitcase, but I would at least make a solid bid for a stepwise evaluation. There is no point in a mental health evaluation until the academic eval tells you if he's have to leave the building or if academic peers can be found inside the building somewhere, because you won't be able to add in the actual details of the plan. Oh, and be sure that they aren't planning to 'stop the test' for any sort of weak excuse like: 'we don't have high enough materials' or 'we've never tested beyond level " - " ' or 'we aren't going to send him out of the building so what's the point of actually seeing where he actually is?'

Even though they sound like they would logically 'of course' keep testing until they got his proper level, it's quite hard to keep them 'on course' - experience trumps logic about once every 15 mintues around here, and to be honest, I don't know if I'd be able to get out of bed on these crazy weather days if I was actually being logical and rational.

Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks for your response; I think you just hit the nail on the head. I think they feel that there might be other issues going on w/him socially. I don't think so; I think that he has some quirky behaviors, that social skills are not his strong suit, that he has no other kids his own age he can relate to, that he is bored in school (although they are working on this, instruction might be differentiated, but by his teacher. So, once again he will build a great rapport w/his teacher, it does not help bridge the gap socially). That's what I think, but can't say one hundred percent that I'm right. They just want to rule everything out just in case.

I think doing it step by step might be one way to go and I was just informed that they won't require a psych. eval. if we're not comfortable w/it. I explained to them that I'm not uncomfortable w/it, I just want someone not connected w/the school and someone who is not a psychiatrist.

Now the psychologist informed me that he wants to give another IQ test since the one he had taken was from almost two years ago (even though he had an achievement test last yr.). Uggg....here I go again, I'm not so sure I'm comfortable w/that. He's only a school psychologist, not a state licensed psychologist and he's already told me he hasn't seen too many gifted kids and definitely not a kid as gifted as my son. So now I'm concerned about the reliability of his implementing this test (either consciously or subconsciously skewing the results. Crap. This is really hard. (sorry, just a wee bit of venting! )

I've been in your boat.... I just want to say hang in there.... I also think your idea of using a psych from the gifted school is a GREAT idea if you can suck up the cost.... At least then you have an inpartial knowledgable perspective going forward.

Well, since they have just about told you that they are concerned that your son is 2E, I would say it is NOT appropriate for the school psychologist to do the IQ testing. He simply doesn't have the experience with gifted kids and especially 2E kids to be qualified to do that kind of assessment, IMO.

I would want an independent evaluation, if they will accept it.

Also, I get why they are worried about his behavior, but maybe you could get them to just let him "visit" a class for a day or two and see what happens. If he can't handle it for even that amount of time, then there's your answer. But if he does well, then you know that he CAN do well in the environment.

This isn't really an equivalent situation, but my DS was having a hard time in 1st to the point where he was in the office frequently and I was getting the implied ADHD comments "he can't focus or sit still" (although through all of it he was still completing all his work and doing it correctly!) and he was becoming defiant with the teacher, uggh it was terrible. Mid-year they switched him to another classroom after observing that he did better with his math teacher. Once he was moved to her class full-time, all of the negative behaviors stopped immediately. So, changing the classroom environment can make a HUGE difference! IMO, while they may say your ds is just "holding it together" for the 1 hour science class, it sounds to me more like he is actively engaged in a class he finds interesting with other students who likely model more mature behavior, which is exactly what you are looking to put him in during the school day. Even 1 hour is a long time to a kindergartner, so I don't think they should discount his behavior in that class completely.

I'm not even sure they're concerned that he's 2E since that's already been ruled out by the first psychologist (unless they don't trust his report or think things have changed and they're just not telling me). I think they just don't know what to make of his behavior and they're just trying to figure it out. We're sure he's not 2E. I think he's just quirky, bored and lacking in social skills.

I think I might call off the IQ test, even thought they've already started it. I'm not sure what they're looking for there either. He said it's two yrs old and they just want a more accurate picture of him academically. Ummm...I don't think there's any doubt that he's gifted and I don't think an updated IQ test will tell them anything they don't already know. Ugh...I hate to say it, but I'm concerned that they might use it against him if he scores even just a bit lower: "see, he's not really that gifted, I guess we don't need to accelerate him after all" Horrible to think this way, maybe I'm being too neurotic. I think they should just test him (benchmarks) to see where he is academically as far as curriculum goes and that's it. As far as behavior goes, I'm still up in the air about this.

A trial run in a different class might be interesting, I'm not so sure they will be amenable to this. I'll suggest it and see what happens. I think this is similar to the step-by-step approach that Grinity has also suggested.

You mentioned he is a DYS? Have you talked about this with your parent liason? I have been desperate to get my kiddo accepted for that perk alone!!

Hi bbq797!

I'm jumping into this without reading everything fully (danger disclaimer!), and I have a toddler underfoot, so I will have to be brief.

Have you brought your Family Consultant into this yet? If he is a DYS, then you have the ability to bring in some heavy guns (or an expert opinion) on the correlation between behavior and an inappropriate academic environment. I know our family consultant has been absolutely wonderful. He has been happy to write a letter to the school about the academic needs our my son. There are many things about these little Pglets that are unique: asynchronous development, over-excitabilities, how rapidly they need to devour new material, etc. Somehow, having an outsider instead of a parent advocate for your child is extremely valuable. Of course, it only helps if the school is willing to listen.

Your FC may also have a list of qualified psychologists in your area who are used to dealing with PG kids for testing, if needed. There is also a number of articles on this sites datebase that speak of the stress that being in an unchallenging environment has on a PG kid and how it affects their behavior.

I have a DS11 who is also a DYS, who sounds a lot like your kiddo. We have the karate chops in the air, as well, and there are times when he looks decidedly quirky. The school pushed for an ADHD diagnosis, and we took him to a Gifted/ADHD psychologist who agrees that he probably is ADHD. But the funny thing is that most of the symptoms are greatly magnified by an inappropriate school environment. He tends to do the karate chops in the air when he is very stressed or anxious, and when he is trying to "process" the day's activities at school. The more "friction" in his life, whether it is boredom in school or a social mismatch with kids that don't get him, the more "quirky" he looks. But put him on the Science Olympiad team with old kids who share his passion and joy for science, and he fits right in.

DS11 had one grade skip between 2nd and 3rd, and then a subject acceleration in Science of 3 years. Even after all of this help from the school, we still felt that this school was not a good fit for our son. Their expectations were that every child should be the same and that they should all fit through the same round peg hole. They expected that the accelerations would help him fit through the next grade's round peg better. However, we just needed to realized that he was not round like everyone else, and to celebrate his uniquely squareness.

Once we did that, by changing to a school that is more accepting of differences, going through a second grade acceleration, and add a healthy dose of maturity, which seems to be kicking in in burst and starts at age 11, we seem to be finally finding a good place to be in. (cross every finger and toe and pray).

In the time it took me to write my post, and chase a 2 year old around, I see that someone else mentioned the Family Consultant. I'm sorry to hear that yours in not being more assertive. We are on our 2nd FC (the first one moved on to other pastures) and there is a great deal of variation on how they are willing to work with the schools. Maybe you can ask explicitly for a letter to your child's school? Perhaps if they receive a letter addressing how rarely these kids come along and what their needs are, then your school will agree to the stepwise approach that our wise Grinity has suggested.

Actually, (reading your latest post) our second school gave the new grade acceleration (from 7th to 8th) after we paid for the Woodcock-Johnson achievement test. Schools don't seem to know what to do with IQ tests so much as seeing where they are academically. Maybe that is what your FC is hinting at?

Do you have recent achievement testing? (see that danger of not reading all of the posts!!)

I think you should be a little careful here- what if the school comes back and they say, in their professional opinion, that your child has manic-depression/bipolar disorder? It could be your child is simply high-spirited and bright but the school tries to put them into a category that is wrong and not in your best interest. You also don't know how good the school's "professional" is.

I don't think he sounds 2E either. However, imo wanting to have him evaluated by a psychiatrist implicitly suggests that they think something is "wrong". I personally wouldn't do it unless they gave me a really good reason why.



Especially if he is a DYS, I see no point in retesting his IQ, especially by someone who's qualifications and motives may be questionable. Best case scenario is that they find out what they already know. Worst case is what you describe here. I don't see what is to be gained.

I don't really see what harm could come of him visiting the classroom for a day or two.

I'm going to encourage you to share your perspective with your FC, and let her know that you need more from her. Be as specific as possible. If she or he seems uncomfortable, then ask to speak to her higher-up. The only way the program can reach it's goal of providing support is if we let them know. DYS knows it's in new territory and is very good about accepting feedback.
Love and More Love,
Grinity

I would be very cautious about letting the school do a psych eval for vague reasons.

I would say that if there are significant behavioral concerns, then doing a psychological evaluation would be appropriate. Also, if I were testing a current K student whose last IQ test was 2 years ago, I would, in fact, want to repeat that testing.

However, I would not have a psychiatrist do any of that -- they are not generally trained in personality assessment. "Just talking to him" is not likely to be helpful anyhow -- my professional experience has been that doing projective testing (Rorschach, storytelling tests, drawings, etc) has been much more useful than just talking to a GT-maybe-2E kid in understanding what their inner world is really like -- most kids' behaviors make *sense* when you take the time to really sit with them.

I agree that "pediatric bipolar" is so massively overdiagnosed that it would be wise to find a practitioner who had a skeptical viewpoint on the topic and who was well-versed in the other possibilities.

I also agree that I would also not be comfortable with having a school psychologist do the evaluation. In most cases, they are *also* not trained in this kind of evaluation, and the amount of training and supervision they get is nowhere near what a psychologist gets. (There is a constant back-and-forth politics-thing in which psychologists want school psychs to stop calling themselves psychs because they really really really aren't.) Plus, they are tasked with answering the question of, "Does this kid need services?" not, "What is this kid really like as a person and what is going to help him?" And they typically have *zero* training in GT/2E issues.

Unfortunately, testing is one of those things where free tends to be worth every penny.

So very true!


Thanks for the feedback, we've called off almost everything. No psychiatric eval, no IQ testing. All they will do now is test him academically to see where he falls in line in their curriculum so we can figure out proper placement.

As for psych. eval, we will still do this privately. I really don't think he's 2E, but at least if someone evaluates him, we will have something to go on.


As for an evaluator, is it better to have a neuropsychologist or a psychologist? I've done some research and seems as if neuropsych will also test for how he learns etc. I have a list of names, but now I have to make phone calls to see about experience w/gifted kids. I have a feeling I'm not going to come up with much.

My pediatrician recommended a neuropsychiatrist, she said she had experience w/all types of kids etc. (they will all say this I'm sure). But my husband just received a list of in network providers to take a look at.

Oh, and I did ask my FC at Davidsons and got a great response. At least now I feel like I'm on the right track, just have to choose someone for the evaluation.

I'd go with a neuropsychologist. Our child development center actually uses a combination/team-- developmental pediatrician for physical exam, neuropsych for the testing.

DeeDee

Sorry, I haven't checked in on my own post in a while--

ebeth--sounds like a very similar situation, what school did you change to? A private school? Different school in your district? Good to hear there's some light at the end of the tunnel!

This would be my main concern -- you have a small boy who likes to karate chop stuff.....and they want him to be evaluated.

This is a bit concerning, but if they give clear reasons for the eval, such as others have suggested, maybe it would be reasonable:
'we want to make sure he'll be an ok fit for skipping'
what specific eval tools they'll use (what screening instruments), etc. should be determined ahead of time. How long has this evaluator been doing this sort of work? How long within the school system? You should ask to speak with them first if at all possible.

Good point! They did actually say this, which is the only reason why we're entertaining it. We've decided to go the private route. If only just to respond, in essence, by saying that he's had an eval. like they've asked and no, he's not pathological, just a quirky kid who has no other outlet for his energy since the school still has not been meeting his needs. NOW, can we please discuss acceleration and/or grade skip. I hope this should do it for them!