Hi all. I have a 2nd grader who recently turned 8. He is extremely advanced beyond his class. He reads 600+ page novels and tests at 100% for reading comprehension. He is also extremely advanced in math to include multiplication and long division. He is listed as being in the top 1% of the district.
He underwent "highly capable" testing in January. We received the results today. According to the results, he corresponding IQ would average 70-75 and he requires 1 on 1 teaching with constant repetition to grasp even the most basic concepts.
I was in complete shock when I read this. He is the ONLY child in class that does not require assistance in a single thing. He gets straight 4's on his report card, writes research papers that are better written than most 6th graders, does 4th grade math with zero instruction, and reads novels in 3 days or less.
I spoke with the highly capable program and they turned him down based on this one test. They gave him a test at 7:15 on a Saturday morning in a class with 22 other 2nd graders. The test was also administered by a 3rd grade teacher, not a specialist. They have refused to let me see the test because they state they do not have them anymore.
I am now about to shell out $3,000 to get private testing because the test they gave states he should be in full time special education. The school district refuses to answer my questions. He meets all requirements to skip a grade but requires special education?
Please help with advice.

Goodness, did they get his results mixed up with another child? What can be tell you about the testing experience? Does he remember it? How did he think it went?

What exactly was the test he was given at 7:15 on a Saturday morning in a class with 22 other 2nd graders and a non-specialist proctor? Was it an IQ test or something else?

Did anyone at the school express surprise that a person supposedly with an IQ in the 70-75 range could get the high grades he gets?

Which 600+ page novels has he read?

A friend had similar happen with her HG+ son in grade 3. When she looked at the "test" it was all multichoice and his answers (which made perfect sense) did not fit the test instrument so were marked wrong. Clearly a flawed test instrument given what he is capable of!

Obviously his IQ is not 75. That is simply stupid. If they use that test to select kids then it may be missing the HG+ kids anyway unless they have been taught to answer the questions as the teacher would expect a second grader to answer. So the advanced class is probably full of high achiever/MG kids who don't see connections where none were intended. Or answer the question that was actually asked rather than the one the test writer thought they were asking.

Good luck. And please keep us posted.

It's not right that you should have to pay money for a different tester, but if the school won't do it, it may be your best option to advocate for your son. I would imagine you have a teacher who also would notice that the results don't jive with the child he/she knows. Can you have someone else go with you to the GT specialist or the principal to ask for individual testing?

How did you get the corresponding IQ estimate? Could that be wrong? If not, the school may be required to offer testing anyway. I'm not an expert on these matters, just going on assumptions here.

Why is the school refusing to answer questions? That doesn't seem right.

Whatever the case, you have every right to advocate for your DS. Good luck and tell us how it goes.

An IQ test would not be given in a group setting. Maybe a CogAt or Olsat? Schools love to reference those as IQ test but they are not.

My pg ds once got a 36 or 37 percent on a vocabulary section of a standardized test. It was clearly not a good test day for him.

No child that is doing what you describe has a 75 on an ability test. It is ridiculous that the school doesn't see from what he does in school that the test is not him.

I would really look around for a tester with GT experience. Are you in a public school? You can see his records. They are not allowed to refuse that request. You can look up more information about the process online by googling FERPA. They will not show you the test itself but the full results should in there. You can get a better handle on it. If they are saying he needs Full time special education than they would be needing to do an MFE for an IEP. Are they suggesting that?

I am just brainstorming here but maybe use their suggestions against them. If they are suggesting full time special education than they should be doing a full evaluation. In doing a full evaluation they need cognitive testing done. It's part of the process. You know they are wrong about him but maybe try to make them prove it.

I have had to take the back door into getting things done for one of my kids. Feel free to pm me.

Good Luck

I'm wondering if, based on the 75 he got, you could tell the school you're concerned about a learning disability and ask them in writing to do a full educational evaluation including an IQ test with WISC IV.

I think it's obvious the 75 is wrong, but if they're willing to exclude your high achiever based on that one test that they take so seriously, you should consider playing their game and take it seriously too. Operate as if it's really true and ask why he's not receiving the special services he obviously needs. Push for the evaluation based on the "alarming" test results. I think they'll end up telling you the results were faulty, and if that's the case you probably have another entry into the GT program. But I also think you're entitled to a full evaluation by the school.

I have experience with this kind of testing foul-up. One of my boys got a 97 on a GT group test and when they did followup testing for GT on the CoGat, his scores averaged a 20! When we asked him about that test he told us he was in a hurry to get back to class so he didn't miss lunch. He wasn't accepted to GT based on that. Fortunately, we called the GT office and asked if they had an explanation for how he lost most of his intellect between the two tests, and they agreed to a different test at a different time (he was accepted).

I'm trying to figure out the $3,000.

That's a lot to rebut a group IQ test.

I'm ordering one now for well under $1,000 and that's with a credibility section to prove that my client's *not* faking mental retardation.

I think it might be a good time to dial down the emotional response and laugh a bit, because these test results are absurd... unless he really DOES owe his high achievement to being strapped into a chair, Clockwork Orange-style, while you and an army of educators tutor him 24/7.

After a good chuckle all around the meeting table where everyone agrees that the test results don't match your boy, it's time to ask them when they're going to fix it. And then if they resist, it'd be fun to poke them with the idea of, "Well, if we're going to accept these test results, then my son clearly falls within the realm of IDEA, it's time to start the full evaluation process and get him an IEP right away."

Right.

I agree with Dude.

What did his classroom teacher say? IMO, this story almost sounds like a parody. The teacher must have an opinion.

Exactly! They can't have both ways The results are clearly not correct.

OK, so my son was given the CogAT test. I called the publishing company yesterday to understand the meaning of the scores. They were the ones that explained to me the correlation of the IQ as compaired to his test results. For the stanine scores, the explanation of those state that my son is unable to grasp basic concepts without constant 1 on 1 teaching with frequent repetition.

Due to my child only being in 2nd grade, they do not take standardized tests. The school district goes completely off the CogAT scores. They are also supposed to go off of teacher recommendations and their DIBELS scores. The teacher was in complete shock when I spoke to her yesterday and the school is 100% behind me, to include the principle. The school isn't the issue, it is the district that runs the program.

I spoke with Johns Hopkins, UW Robinson Center, Duke, and Northwestern to obtain more information on gifted testing. They all stated that over 75% of truly gifted children will score at or below the median range of CogAT tests, which is why it is so important to have the tests given 1 on 1 with a licensed psychologist.

The only way my son is able to get into the gifted program is through this one test, unless I pay for outside testing through a specialist. I have his entire school record already, showing his DIBELS level is on par with 8th graders, his extra workbooks for 3rd and 4th grade math, his writing samples, his research papers, etc.

The books he has read include (but are not limited to), the Heroes of Olympus series, Percy Jackson series, Harry Potter Series, and Eragon. Right now he is reading the Kane Chronicles. He is the only child in his class able to read and understand these books on his own with zero assistance.

I meet with the "Highly Capable" program director today to fight about this. His teacher already submitted that it will be damaging to my son to stay in regular school next year. Our district has a 5 day a week, full time gifted school. However, after the fight I am in, I am wondering just how truly gifted this school is.

Syoblrig - I like the way you think!

I think that this is the best option. Also, 3k is about 2x the going rate in the nj/NYC area which I would imagine would be on the higher end of the pricing scale nationally

I've been in your shoes, and there is nothing funny about it.

I had a neuropsych tell me that I should prepare my son for manual labor jobs because he would never have the mental capacity for some of the jobs my son said he was interested in like physicist, software engineer ... He said I shouldn't feed that in my son because it was setting him up for failure.

I didn't laugh it off. I had a not very pleasant conversation with the neuro about his comments and the damage they did to parents with twice exceptional children - and to the kids.

I had him retested through a psychologist who contracts with the school who has experience in testing kids with learning disabilities and gifted IQ's. He qualified for gifted despite severe learning disabilities that skewed the results. The tester said his IQ is obviously much higher than the score she got but since it was high enought to qualify him for the classes we needed, we decided to stop lab-ratting him.

I personally would write a letter questioning the validity of the results and asking for a full evaluation from a professional qualified to deal with learning disabilities AND gifted IQ. If you have the money and you can find a specialist who has this background, I'd be willing to pay for it.

Good luck. I know how you feel right now, and it isn't fun. But you are your son's best advocate, so hang in there and be tenacious.

Also, just as an FYI, my son has never shown any type of learning disabilities. This is according to his stanine score description.

It sounds like you have an excellent case and perhaps the district will learn much needed information about proper identification and testing of the gifted population. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

jaggirl47, I've been in a very similar position when advocating for my EG ds - and he also scored far below his WISC scores on the CogAT. This is what I recommend:

1) You need individual IQ testing - it will give you two very important things. First, it let's *you* know where your ds scores. Second, it gives you a data point that the schools can't really argue. They can tell you the won't use it, but they are not going to tell you they can't "trust" a high score on the WISC.


I'd write a letter to the head of the district gifted department requesting a full evaluation (IQ+achievement testing), and cc your school staff (principal and teacher). Requests made in writing have to be answered - the answer might be "no" but the district will at least have to respond.

If the district says "no" - look into whether or not your medical insurance might cover it. Even if they won't, consider that it might be worth paying for an IQ test, through a licensed psychologist that you can trust. It's something that you're going to need to back you up in advocating.


I hope your meeting will go well! I am sure you're already at the meeting or it's already over, but fwiw - it will be helpful to know absolutely for sure what the path toward admissions into the HG program is in your district. While you know the district uses CogAT + Dibels + teacher recommendation - is that *all* they require? For instance, our district uses CogAT as a screener, so to get past the first hurdle a student has to score above a certain percentile... but that's not the *last* hurdle - the district gifted program then also administers another individual ability test + individual achievement testing. If you found out your district does that too - that might be your "in".


That's a really good question, but I also think there is another question out there that you would benefit from having the answer to - what is your ds' IQ? He's clearly a high achieving child, and clearly would be a good candidate for advanced academics... but is he a high achiever with a profoundly gifted IQ or a high achiever with a moderately gifted IQ? Having that piece of info helps. You may know the answer to that question simply by knowing your ds, but it's not necessarily related to high DIBELS scores or reading comprehension above grade level. AND... to further complicate things, not all school HG/etc programs are designed for the same type of student, or even with the same type of philosophy/curriculum choices etc. You'll have to do your research no matter what

Best wishes,

polarbear

So, I had the meeting with the program director. It started off very rough with arguments about the CogAT test. The district does not have child psychologists so they only go off the group scores of the CogAT.

Well, as the discussion progressed, I informed the director of my talks with the different CTY's. I happened to get many studies emailed to me yesterday that I will be forwarding to the district today. They were extremely shocked to hear the studies. I explained how these studies explain my child 100% and shows the failure of proper screening in the district. They are fully willing to read the studies to bring up at the next school board meeting.

We then got into my son's academic acheivements. I gave him the list of the books my son has read and tested on, which are between a high 4th to a low 8th grade level. It also gave his reading comprehension scores of these books. All tests were scored between 90-100% for comprehension. Keep in mind his CogAT scores state he cannot comprehend even basic concepts.

I then handed him my son's workbooks that he does for fun at home. These are his math books with 3rd and 4th grade math. He was suprised and asked if I helped my son with any of it. The answer was no. My son does it all on his own for fun.

After seeing all of this, my son's district test scores ended up getting pulled up. The director wanted to look to see how well he scores (why they didn't do that originally I do not know), and gasped. My son is the top student in the district for the second grade in reading, math, science, and social studies. Across the board. They grade on a 1-4 scale here and he scored 4's on everything with exception of 2 tests, which he scored the highest level of 3.

After reading everything my son has scored on, the director gave me an appeal form and said he wanted me to fill it out and put the dates of all upcoming testing for my son. He acknowledged that the district may have made a huge error in judgement. He also set my son up for MAP testing to be done within the next month. The MAP testing in our district is 4th-6th grade levels.

As far as the testing, here in Washington the testing costs up to $6000 depending on which psychologist you go to. Thankfully, my pediatrician is now on board and submitted it through our insurance. Insurance will be covering around 90% of the costs. He will be going through the full battery of testing to include a properly tested CogAT, IQ, Iowa Advancement, etc. This will take place over a few days to get the proper results.

The last thing the director asked me is what my child said about the CogAT test. My son informed me that he hated the teacher that administered it and that she was rude. He also asked me why he was forced to waste his time on such a stupid test. Those were his actual words. The director admitted that my son sounded extremely gifted.

As far as the level of gifted, we are not yet sure until he gets the IQ testing. The majority of our family ranges between 160-200 for IQ, so my guess is his will be fairly high.

Wow! Great response from the director and you did a marvelous job advocating for your ds. Congratulations. Things should improve from here...

Excellent result! Good job advocating for your son.

I will keep you guys updated on the fight. It is still a fight. We have a slightly different fight with my oldest, but his is a bit easier to deal with.

I am just truly hoping that the director sticks to his promises. I am working on an email now that covers our discussion this morning.

Is anyone familiar with MAP testing for younger kids? Our distrct starts it in 3rd grade but my son will be taking it next week in 2nd.

Our school district starts MAP tests for Reading and Math from 1st grade. They tested 3 times at beginning, middle and the end of school year to monitor the progress for individual student. It is an adaptive computer-based test. So every time your kid take it, the problem set would remember the previous stage and adjust to suit her needs. There is no time limit that I am aware of for the test. And I don't know if the process speed would affect the test score, but they do show a timer on screen. If your kid is at advanced level, be prepared. The problems could be wildly challenging beyond her capacity. I knew one 4th grade girl cried out loud when she was frustrated by an math problem on infinitely nested recursive radical sequence.

Our school gave my son the MAP reading and math 3 times in first Grade. The School system was not using MAPs at the time so our son was a test for the test.
Using those scores they moved him into second grade reading and math.
The next year they subject accelerated him 2 years. In 3rd grade the NWEA's were a system wide test.

No time limit is a great thing in our case. Except for the fact if you keep getting question right they keep asking questions. My son says he is always the last one done and it usually takes longer then the time they give him. After a few years you have a nice little chart of progress if you pay attention.

Your story is very familiar. The reading comprehension especially.

If they follow MAPs guidelines everything should into place as well as can be expected.

JMO

The test should be the elementary version, which is usually given to 2nd-5th grades. (There is a K-1 version and a 6+ version as well.) Explain to your son that the questions will start easy, but will progressively get harder (and more interesting to most bright kids) if they continue to answer questions correctly. Also it is a computerized test, so if he hasn't had much experience on a computer, make sure you give him the basics.

I like the MAPs for early elementary quite a bit, as you get a great snapshot of what your kid knows when they take it. You can see where your child's score falls in comparison to other grades too, which is nice to know. (E.g, if your kid scores in the 99th percentile for grade level, is he also scoring 99th for the next grade level or two up, or is he more like 80th percentile for the next grade.

FYI - the score pops up on the screen when you are done with the test. I wouldn't recommend this for the first time your kid is taking the MAP if you think it will distract, but next time maybe say "Hey, try to remember the score at the end of the test." Usually a 3 digit number. Then you can look it up yourself on App. B here: http://www.nwea.org/sites/www.nwea.org/files/resources/NWEA_2011_RIT_Scale_Norms.pdf

ETA: Great job with advocacy so far. What an ordeal! Hopefully it will an eye-opener for the GT leaders in your district.

FERPA regulations require that the school district allow you access to information about the tests taken and their complete results (not just the summary they have told you). I am not sure who they would have given the tests to for scoring, but there should be some example test and a copy of his results that you have a right to see. (Most standardized tests like that send back an answer key showing which questions each child got right and wrong and what this means in terms of the tests' norms. If you want to know more about the test tell them you have a legal right to see whatever information they have about the test and his scores.

Group tests are a major pet peeve of mine but I've never seen studies of this sort. I'd love to see what these studies say as I've always contended that the group screeners are not only missing gifted kids but are also over identifying high achievers as gifted. Is there any way you could post links to these studies?

I can see what I can do about getting the studies linked.

I also looked through the Riverside Publishing guide the district gave me. I ended up writing a 4 page Word document and sending it to the director to show him all of the flaws in their testing.

My son has what's known as an "Extreme" profile with over 30 points separating his 3 scores on the CogAT. According to the paperwork from the publisher of the test, this makes the entire test null and void and mandates further individual testing. I am interested in seeing what the reply will be.....

I also found out that the state I am in requires school districts to pay for all further evaluation with a certified child psychologist. So, I am now working on that so I don't have to pay out of pocket.

Yes please OP, I would also really love to see the studies. I anticipate a similar issue with my dd when they give the CogAt in the fall.

Just as an update, my son took the MAP reading test today. He scored very high at entry level 5th grade according to the school. He takes MAP math next week. Math is his strongest subject by far.

Great news! I am jealous I wish my district used MAP. What a wonderful turn around from the ridiculous test results!

I'd like to reiterate this myself, actually-- I'd LOVE to know about studies to this effect.

Working on getting the actual links over copy and pasting from my email with the info.

The district did try to push their ideas about the CogAT test and how wonderful it was by sending me links of studies. All of the studies were done by the author of the test so I replied that of course the studies are positive. I would write positive studies if something was making me millions as well.

I think I understand the high ($6,000) price tag now.


Ain't that the truth? Haw!

So, I spoke with the state to get assistance with the district paying. Apparently, there is a little known clause that only requires further investigation if the child has a learning disability. I am still required to pay. I did find an outstanding child psychologist that will do just the needed test for much less (thank goodness!).

Call me naive and unsophisticated if you will but that sounds like a learning disability to me! Hoist them on their own petards for all you are worth

He has an appointment for ADHD screening this week. It's been in his medical record from the age of 3 as highly suspect. The thing is, when he is properly engaged he is perfectly fine. He never is though. His teacher hands him mass amounts of work to do on his own, he finishes it quickly, then becomes bored. He hates listening to addition problems other kids have issues with when he is doing long division at home for fun. Right now I am teaching him multiplication and division of fractions. He has a blast and will do them for hours.

Hello jaggirl47,

I am in a similar situation - except we have already had the WISC-IV test which shows my dd9 to be gifted, and the school district doesn't want to take it into consideration! On the CogAT she scored 97% for quantitative, but 67%(!!) for verbal, which is her strength! The cutoff for HC here (also WA) is 98% on a cognitive test. You wold think her WISC-IV scores would qualify her (percentiles were VCI 99, PRI 99, WMI 99.8, PSI 98, and FSIQ 99.8) but apparently not. In addition, they don't allow appeals.

I need to get my hands on some studies that show weaknesses with the CogAT test. Could you post links to the studies you mentioned, or forward the emails to me? I'll private message you my email address. Thanks in advance!!!

-Tricia

What a ridiculous and horrible situation. I'll try to find the article I've read recently about the inaccuracy of the CoGat particularly within the gifted population and get back to you...

Thank you KADmom, I so appreciate it!! I am so incredibly frustrated! And we claim we are the best school district in the state.

And thank you for replying to my other thread - I have tried to post more information there but my replies are stuck in moderator-land...

Tricia,
I pm'd you back. Look forward to talking to you later.

If these studies being referenced are not available as links, would anyone be able to post the names and authors of the articles/studies? I bet that I could find a way to get my hands on a copy through a research library and then post scanned copies somewhere so we could all see what is out there.

Here is one:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm

..."Group tests are generally normed on populations of all children, with relatively few gifted children among the mix. When taking group intelligence tests, gifted kids often "over-think" the questions, and perhaps make wrong selections. And since there's no individual tester to clarify unusual answers, the gifted kids often score lower on group intelligence tests."

Thanks, I think that Carolyn (Hoagies) was referring to the one study from the 80s on the OLSAT as well as anecdotal evidence such as we've found here when she wrote that. I mentioned that one OLSAT study in another recent thread here where this same issues with group tests was coming up:

I'm not sure if this link will work, but this is a scanned copy of the entire original nearly 30 yr old study on the OLSAT vs. the WISC: http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED286883.pdf

I don't know how familiar you all are with correlation coefficients, but essentially an "r" (correlation coefficient) of 0-.3 is considered a weak positive correlation between variables (as one goes up, so does the other, but the relationship isn't very strong or compelling), .3-.7 is a moderate correlation and .7-1 is a strong correlation, with virtually nothing having an r of 1.

For the average population (kids with average OLSAT and WISC scores), the r was strong. For the learning disabled and kids with low IQs, it was moderate, and for the gifted, it was weak positive or weak negative in the case of African-Americans gifted kids.

However, I am still looking for a study that looks at more recent norming versions of the WISC (this one used the WISC-R) or another individual IQ test vs. the CogAT and/or OLSAT and one that is not 30 yrs old.

Additionally, and this is just my own personal suspicion based on small amounts of data from other kids, I'd really like to see if high group test scores always correlate positively with high individual scores and not just the reverse. I.e. - I'd like to see if we are getting false positives off of tests like the CogAT as well as the types of false negatives that we hear of here.

Not the specific info for any study, but here is the language from www.Cogat.com - under the "Ability Profile System" link and then in my DD's case we looked up the 9E(Q-) profile. This language is included under the second paragraph:

"When students obtain an E profile, it is important to double-check the integrity of their scores. The section "For Additional Information" (below) directs teachers to parts of the CogAT Interpretive Guide for Teachers and Counselors that explain how to check (1) whether the students attempted most of the test items, (2) whether their score reports contain score warnings, and (3) whether the confidence intervals on their plot of scores (shown on the List of Student Scores and the Profile Narrative Report) are reasonable. "

I just checked under a 9E(V-) and the language is similar. Hope this helps some of you!

I fear that I, as usual, am dragging this off topic, so I am going to start a new thread about research re IQ tests vs. group tests. I'll link to it here in just a second once I have it up.

New thread: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/157404.html#Post157404