If I did you'd probably just tell me I'm not really hothousing since I'm not pushing anywhere near even the beginning of his potential, but that's my problem with the hothousing theory. �They keep redefing it to whatever suits the whim of the conversation. �
I feel unsupported by the tone of the online gifted parenting community in this issue because of the overshadowing need to push the issue that giftedness is "developed naturally" in young children. �I understand the desire to be believed that they just learned stuff without you systematically teaching them. �Cool. �It happens. �How does that negate a pro-active parenting approach, trying to stay one step ahead, as a valid and beneficial life choice? �The intellectual development is his doing. �The education is my doing.
This clipped multi-quote, stolen from another thread, illustrates how prevalent it must be in the online gifted discussion community for this many people to interpret the quote as belonging to this line of rhetoric.�

�I planned since pregnancy to cultivate his academic development in time with his natural intellectual development if he was smart. �If he was normal I wouldn't have so he could have a normal childhood. �That's different than "following his lead child-led learning.". because I'm inserting academics where it was only his intellect that was developing naturally. �That's different than "train up a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from it".. because I'm following his natural intellectual development and enriching it with supplemental academic skills and behavioral expectations, but it's not with a pre-determined "way he should go" goal. �I think I have the goal of cultivating "however he wants to turn out" but healthier and with less frustration.

The MAJOR drawback to teaching is that it makes them fit the school's planned lessons even less, but that's less of a deciding factor if the parent knows the school's lessons never had a chance of keeping up anyWay.

I think I became sensitive to the whole "hothousing" subject, and the supposition that most/many "so-called gifted" are nothing more than spoon-fed automatons, when I read the book Hothouse Kids: The Dilemma of the Gifted Child .

I was very offended by that book.

Do I provide materials for my son? Yes. Do I force him on to the next level? No.
Does he ask questions pertaining to the next level? Yes. Do I answer those questions in detail? Yes!

What parent doesn't? Maybe one who couldn't care less about their child's curiosity.

Here's two cut and paste's from the previous long hothouse discussion:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/5728/1.html

In reflection this sentence makes me cringe because it's not true that I feel unsupported. �I feel that gifted pop-psychology online (that's all I've got) hasn't provided with as many examples as i'd like or ...upon even more reflection this thread was probably not necessary. �I just posted in response to this post that I made in another thread:

P.S. I'm being extra sensitive about hot-housing and modern ideas about appropriate early academics because my late birthday boy (by 1 measly little month) can't go to preschool this year because Texas state law has drawn a hard line at 4 by Sept. for pre-k, even though the local principle looked at his worksheets and said she's happy to let him in if it's do-able. �In my search for info I talked to a regional gt person and explained my son a little bit and she said the public school probably will never do a good job meeting his educational needs. �I said, well I knew that but I know about ALEKS and EPGY and the Davidson Gifted public forum. �I think I can find ways to help his educational growth, just school would be nice too. �This would be a good year for him to do pre-k because he wants to and would like it and would fit. �Not once has the issue or the word hothousing came up but giftedness did and that's what they called it. �I just think the discussions about "early giftedness is by osmosis and not education" is obviously a necessary conversation because that's apparently what some people are going through. �It's also a vocal movement and a counter-productive sentiment to my current situation. �Not that your nerds are less valid than mine. �Lol at the tiny iPhone screen typo. I meant not that your needs are less valid than mine. �LMAO

Parenting and education involve many diverse opinions. Of course as a parent you make the choices you feel are best. I, personally, do not embrace or support structured adult led academics for toddlers and preschoolers. It isn't something I value or find to be particularly good for kids. I don't think though it is fair to expect that all people will share your opinions about the role of structured academics for toddlers and preschoolers. To say that other people, particularly people online, need to agree that your choices are valid and beneficial seems to be a pretty impossible standard.

To me extreme precocious spontaneous academic development is a solid sign a child is gifted. If a preschool child has had structured academic activities and they are responding a couple of years ahead of age norms, I think it can be harder to tell. That's not at all to suggest that kids who are taught aren't gifted, just that it can be harder to tell.

I have seen many examples of kids who had a lot of structured academics as preschoolers who were indeed gifted and their rate of development continued at a fast pace. I've also seen quite a few kids who over time did "even out" with other kids. I think it is okay to be honest about that, isn't it?

If he's been doing preK academics for sometime it seems like that wouldn't be any more of a fit for him this year than it would be the following year, would it? Maybe I'm missing something. Some kids really look forward to school are disappointed because they didn't really imagine what it would actually be like.

If what is appealing to him is being around other kids is there any possibility he could go to a playgroup, preschool, or homeschool type of activity?

Yeah, I feel that way sometimes. It's almost as though one's kid isn't gifted enough if he doesn't figure out everything for himself or if you teach him. I don't get that. I understand that some people just figure things out and that they teach stuff to themselves. But everyone needs teachers and mentors. I figure you can only get so far on your own before you need help from another person who knows more than you do or who thinks differently from you. This is just my opinion.

This just seems to make sense, intuitively.

I recall wanting to do this in math and science when I was younger. I don't think my parents knew what do to with me. But those were my areas of interest. That and short selling the stock market (and economic analysis, generally).

Although I think I was "hothoused" to become valedictorian. My father was the school superintendent, so he, quite literally, had some control over this process.

Yes, I feel like this sometimes too, and being untested, it does get to me. This doesn't mean I don't believe that some kdis do practically teach themselves, because the 'teaching' was so subtle, noone knew they were doing it. They were just living, you know?

I also don't think anyone tries to make me feel that way, I'm just really insecure, lol!

Hothousing has a negative connotation because in my mind, it is a very fine line near child abuse. There was a Law and Order episode a few years ago about gifted daughters that were hothoused in a basement. It was TV drama done up for effect but it was essentially Tiger Mom goes bananas.

I have met ONE hothouser. She was a part of our mom's club in our neighborhood. Every single day, she put her 8 month old in the high chair with flash cards for Babysigns. The only way that baby got lunch was to perform. He had to sign the sign on the card for a bite. She bragged about this all the time and didn't see anything wrong with making him work for his lunch. In fact, she encouraged others to come and see because he had close to 100 signs! Did that make him gifted? Who knows... but it certainly made him hungry.

I haven't met anyone (or read of anyone) here that I would describe as a true hothouser. Sure... we all probably push our kids here or there, even when we don't mean to or try to be child led. But there's no way my kid would EVER have learned to write if I hadn't shoved him a bit. He was completely unmotivated, had no reason to learn and didn't see any benefit other than getting me off of his back.

I really agree with you here, though I have never managed to express it very well and have perhaps caused offense to those who do have very self taught learners. I sometimes think about this in terms of my kids learning to talk. They have to do it mostly themselves, especially at the start, and I believe most parents think of their child as "teaching themselves" to talk - unless they end up in speech therapy - but in fact I believe the quality of their communication with their primary carer has got to have a significant impact.

I am better than average (possibly a lot better than average) at noticing that a baby is trying to talk, figuring out what they are saying and positively re-enforcing. It's not conscious, it's just how I am with babies, mostly because they fuss less if I can respond appropriately. Do I think of myself as hot housing learning to talk? No, I don't. I don't even think of myself as teaching speech. But the fact that I listen and respond to everything my kids say from babyhood probably has something to do with them being early talkers.

I like that analogy, it makes sense. I think you can probably only affect it within a certain range though, that they might be super early talkers because you did that, but without it they'd still be early talkers iykwim.

I was thinking about how my oldest two learned colours. If you'd asked me, I would say my DS1 knew all his colours fairly early, without me teaching him. Then I thought about when he was a baby and how he would only be happy in the pram if he could hear me talking, so I would talk and talk as I walked and a lot of of what I said was about the cars we were passing. "Here comes a blue car, and there's a white one parked there... blah blah blah..." I wasn't even thinking about teaching him colours, I just ran out of stuff to say! I think that's probably where he learnt it.

I didn't do that with my second, and he didn't know his colours as early has his brother. But then he was sent a colours workbook from his grandmother and he really wanted to do it. Within two days of getting that he knew the colours.

Innate ability is obviously a huge factor, but they don't learn to speak (or their colours) in a vacuum. My kids have all learned to speak at different ages, they all have different personalities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. But it's not 100% nature, environment counts...

Just like some parents provide a rich environment for developing speech, others are good with colours, or ball skills, or music, or maths. And when we have a child with the innate ability to pick something up easily when the inspiration is in their environment we may be inclined to feel the child "taught themselves". Gifted children can learn a skill way in advance of their peers without any more exposure than an average child of their age, I absolutely believe this happens. But I suspect that often gifted children have gifted parents who naturally do things a bit differently to average, and because the inspiration/support is part of their lives in a way that feels completely natural/normal to us it is perhaps somewhat invisible to us that we are providing better than average support to learn a skill.

Some families wouldn't ever go to the park without a ball. They probably don't think they are hot housing ball skills. It has never once in 9 years occurred to me that I should take one, at least not before I got there and saw someone else's. But I wouldn't leave the house without pencils and a jigsaw in my bag.

My feelings are not that strong on either side of this issue (which is unusual for me)because I can imagine so many variations of parent-child relationships and so many definitions of hothousing. Which is also unusual, is that I am going to participate in this discussion in a personal, not theoretical way:

It we take hot-housing to be regular, intensive, child FORCED lessons, I would most likely think that was potentially harmful, but on the other hand, who am I to say how that dynamic will play out for a particular parent-child pair? Kids are not that fragile and we can't walk on eggshells worrying that everything we do is going to send them to the couch.

I met a mom with a possibly gifted child the same age as my DD5 who is from an Eastern European country who sits down with her son and enforces learning every single day. From the outside, it appears harsh, but I don't have enough information to make that judgment that clearly.

At around my DD5's fifth birthday I began making an attempt to "hothouse" math facts since this was the one area that was not at the same level as the other areas. She was no genius in remembering simple math facts even though math concepts came easily as did things like telling time, fractions, etc. Actually, I came to find out that in this so called "weak" area, she was still quite ahead of her peers, but I thought we should work on that one area in case we met with a grade skip in our near future since she was so advanced in all other areas. Truth is, I thought the schools might actually see the ability to do math facts as a telltell sign of giftedness and ignore her creativity, insight, humor, and so on and so forth and use it against her if that area wasn't at the same level as everything else so I didn't want it to get in her way. I guess I don't trust the public school system and know that their idea of intelligence may be very different than mine.

Of course the intention was good, but we had some low moments that actually made me flip flop back and think that there was no point for me to try to teach this child anything that isn't of interest to her, but really, how fascinating are math facts in and of themselves? They are a tool for other things and once we get over that hump, then other doors will open.

In our community MOST moms send their children to preschools, enrichment, classes, do workbooks, have kids do online learning games, have tutors etc. so I was actually LATE to the game partially due to the attitude I encountered on online forums for gifted kids. I felt a little guilty for not doing something when I saw what was around me and simultaneously, didn't want to be that evil hothousing mom. Of course I wanted to reach that golden mean, but that has never been a natural skill of mine.

I did want to teach my DD5 discipline and to allow someone else to lead, things I was never good at until late in life. Sure, marching to the beat of your own drummer has its merits, and I was not a follower as a child, and an outright rebel through my late twenties, but on the other hand, it would have been helpful for me to know how to contain and control myself and to at least play the game when it would be beneficial. My parents also took no interest in my learning / academics (Neglect!)and so I have no personal experience of ever being pushed or even having academic expectations placed on me from a parent.

Back to my hothousing experience. We dabbled with "learning time" which was my attempt to work on her math facts with some high points and some very low points on my part. I lapsed into some Tiger Mom moments mostly when I became frustrated with my DD's silly disctracted antics, not that she didn't know something, but that she wouldn't cooperate. She isn't one to want to please or to follow and once we tried learning time, we began to butt heads, so for the most part, I had to drop any attempt to ENFORCE my WILL. Now we do a little something here and there if she is willing, and that's it.

I think we need to talk about the difference between teaching and hothousing. Some sports coaches push kids beyond their limits, is that always wrong, or do those kids not know how far they can go unless stretched beyond what they thought they could do.

Truth is, in some ways, I'd like to be able to hothouse my children if we define it as teaching them things in an adult directed way. I like learning and teaching and it would be fun to see how far we could go, but my children would never submit to that, I always think of the joke about "herding cats" when I see my girls so they just aren't the type that would make that process enjoyable enough to continue. If we define hothousing as a step beyond adult directed into something much more harsh and intense, I know how bad that would make me feel and how damaging it is to relationships, so I'd like to avoid that at all costs. I tasted its bitter taste a few times and I didn't like myself.

On the other hand, there have been some very fun moments where we are learning and teaching together and my DD5 is excited and interested and discovering. Those moments are the best and I need to remember how right that FEELS compared to the times where I got very frustrated with how darn stubborn my children are and how much they resist having their heads opened up and knowledged dumped in by an authority...ah, they are going to love public school...

I have a heard of cats too twinkle toes. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I can see that this probably happens a lot when the topic of 'hothousing' comes up, but let's think for a minute about what happens to an actual plant in an actual hothouse.

A plant that couldn't normally thrive in a particular environment (school?) is taken out of the local environment, and placed in an environment that meets it's own natural requirements for warmth, water and sunlight. It grows really well. The grower takes responsibility for learning as much as possible about the plants actual needs, and there may be some trial and error. People look at the beautiful flower and feel jealous, but console themselves that the flower could in no way thrive in the regular environment. So they remember not to compare their own flowers, which do, to the 'hothouse flowers.' And use the term as a put down.

If one accepts that our kids' learning needs are mostly inborn, then why not get started figuring out how much of a 'not-typical-for-local-plants' kind of environment that particular plant might actually need to grow.

When folks start up pointing out that the plant would die if it weren't in the hothouse, I remember that there isn't a species of plant alive on this planet that isn't native somewhere. I feel like it is my job to hothouse as much as necessary (and no more than is useful) until the plant is well enough established to thrive in it's new environment, or move!

Where we live, lots of people have 'semi-hothoused' plants that move inside for the winter, or start in a hothouse as seedlings and move outside after being 'hardened off.'

I think that because a lot of our childrens' difficulties come from being 'asynchronous' rather than truely alien, that being so careful about the growth requirements academically is mostly needed during childhood years. At 15 it's appropriate for my son to be able to balance his needs with other kid's needs in a classroom - at 7 it was just asking too much of him. Plus in his current environment it truly is a question of balance, since he is often getting his learning needs met. At 7 the classroom was very different, and the expectations for balance were quite a bit more lopsided. If he had been a high EQ kid in a classroom that was meeting 45% of his learning needs, I would have expected more from him in terms of going with the flow.

So that's my personal definition of hothousing...certainly not the standard, just mine.
Grinity

Twinkletoes... why can't I find a you around here IRL?? LOL!

Well put and thank you for articulating exactly what I was thinking and saving me the time of typing it all out. Right down to the battles over math facts. My children just WON'T be taught what they don't want to know. There is no chance to hothouse my children because they would not stand for it. My kids are stealth learners... we often wonder where they learn something only to realize it might have been mentioned in passing a month earlier. When DS was 18 months old I pulled out the shape-o-ball and showed and named all the shapes for him. He only paid half attention and left a few times. I did this two or three times and then put it away. When he was 2.5 and finally able to talk a little he pulled the toy out (it was in the same spot for one year and never touched) and named every shape. Sure, he was probably exposed to some shapes in books and on TV shows, but we certainly don't talk about pentagons, rhombuses and quadrilaterals on a daily basis. When he did this for his grandmother she asked me how much tutoring it took to teach him that trick. The whole point was that I didn't push it because he clearly wasn't interested. And, obviously, I don't have to push. Hopefully, I can teach him how to do housework and grow up to be a good husband via osmosis as well, LOL!

If you follow your child's lead, it can't possibly be hot housing. Someone mentioned earlier that it is hot housing if it is done for the parent's pleasure instead of that of the child. There are some instances where that is true in our house... but I don't see how making my child take two years of piano (which she HATED) so that she would have a basis of music in case she decided later in life to pick up three instruments, as her father did, to be hot housing. I think you have to talk about expectations when speaking of hot housing. If, as a parent, you place lofty goals for achievement on your child, that they do not share, and then you push and push for them to learn and suceed and excel and you take great pleasure in bragging about it... THAT is hot housing to me. Torturing my child by making her learn math facts is just good parenting. ;-)

I think it is becoming relative. How many kids are in preschool now compared to 30 years ago? Kids are expected to do math and read in K. And I bet that curriculum will become even more demanding because of global competition.

Think about Chinese kids that spend preschool learning a second language, math and piano or violin. That is the norm for millions of these kids. I read there were 10 million Chinese kids in these types of programs. The whole thing of pushing our kids came about because the Japanese car industry took over ours and we started talking about the Japanese way of doing things and "we" started pushing our kids.

So is hothousing going to be the normal curriculum in 10 years?

We are at the ocean in NJ and it is so common to red shirt so your kid will be at the top of the class. I am not sure what the bottom level is to pass, since we haven't been there, but it seems strange that the majority of kids who have a summer birthday are not ready for K and need to wait, yet in NYC all those kids have to go to K with a cut-off 12/31 compared to 10/1 in NJ. So you have even younger kids going to K in NYC because they have to (unless you decide to private school). If you show up a year later for public, they put your kid in grade 1.

I think hothousing is here to stay and I do not have a problem with it, because every parent gets to help their kid any way they want, abuse aside. I am glad my kid is who she is and I don't have to worry about what it takes to pass, just how far she can go to challenge herself and have good habits of discipline and application.

Ren

What a beautiful post Grinity. And Wren I see where you are coming from too.

Very interesting discussion--this board really makes me think.

I will just throw in here that some of the best times I have with my DD are when I am teaching her something. We clash a LOT, but rarely during the teaching process. That isn't to say it doesn't happen--and when it does, look out--but it's not usual. She is happy and engaged when learning--the wheels stop spinning ruts into the ground and she focuses. So at times I have sat down to work with her on...something (could be spelling words or math concepts or teaching her a new word game) just because it tends to be a positive time for us.

This is why I say that DD is really a teacher's dream, given the right teacher.

What a great thread! As I'm reading, a couple of thoughts that are popping into my mind...

I see the tension around hot housing as primarily related to the impact it has on other parents and kids.

First, kids who teach themselves (by which I mean, they leap to new skills and/or interests with light exposure rather than persistent parent drill) probably have different instructional needs than children who don't. This speaks less to whether or not they are or are not gifted than it does to what they need in order to continue moving forward. Not distinguishing between these different learning styles can really wreak havoc with a parent's attempts to secure appropriate learning conditions for their child and--I think--creates a tense dynamic in which parents of leapers see acheivement scores leading to their children placed with children who may be gifted, but are not leapers. This becomes a big deal because it shapes how instruction is delivered to the detriment of those who "leap".
Unfortunately, parents of kids who are not leapers may view the attempts to distinguish needs as "my-child-is-more-authentically-gifted-than-yours" competitiveness.

Secondly, those who hothouse in a "Tiger Mom" kind of way create a lot of anxiety in some families who would not normally choose to do that. It is the lucky parent indeed who does not worry that they are hurting their child either by pushing to hard or by not pushing enough. When other families adopt an uber "go-go-go" approach to preparing their child for the world, other families may feel pressured to do the same. I don't think that all families have a need to see their child be the best, but most probably experience anxiety if it seems that their children could be left behind. As a parent who wants my kids to enjoy being kids (and as a teacher who thinks we have taken too much recess, creativity and joy out of school), I find that pressure unhealthy, and I have to remind myself to stay true to works for my kids and not worry about what someone else is doing with their kids.

I can also speak for the under three set here. I have noticed that there is definitely a spectrum of parental involvement in early childhood education. There have been many times where I felt uneasy about how another parent seemed to be pushing their child, burdening them with such high expectations to be advanced, or creating a dynamic where love and attention becomes conditional on academic progress.

But, I will say that since DD has turned three I have found myself longing for a teacher's guide for her. It is hard. What do I teach her? What do I shield her from? What is the answer to her question, anyway? (Do insects have blood? I think. I dunno.)

And, wouldn't it be nice to have an idea about what is appropriate to teach a three year old about history? Can I have faith that she will guide me in the right direction? I don't know.

For the record, DD learned her letters after we told her it was a "g" sewn on her pants (for Gap. And, then we had to correct her when she labeled every other letter she saw as a "g.") She learned her shapes from a book with her favorite character, a monkey named Mimi, in it. She learned her colors one day sitting on my FIL's couch fiddling with a "quiet activity" book they had gotten at a garage sale.

We have always shied far away from learning toys. I went crazy about purchasing open ended toys sans batteries that would grow with my child. So, we have never did leapfrog or vTech. I have never bought a single workbook or curriculum. My DD does not watch educational TV.

Don't get me wrong, we are teaching her a ton. I admit to letting her play starfall and buying her hundreds of books, and, I will surely take all the credit on teaching her to read, thank you very much. Do you know how much I friggin' talked about phonics with this girl? But, this gives you an idea how it went.

I remember bribing her to take bites of food (she is a horrible eater,) with state facts and calming her down in the car with word games before she turned two. Even now, we goad her to bed with a promise of a "conversation" (about photosynthesis, cells, US presidents, etc.) The other day she came up to me with a tambourine and said, "give me a word, and if I read it right go crazy!"

Anyway, that is all to say that I do feel like I am at a crossroads here, and that I do feel some pressure to take a more active role in structuring her education. But, how do I do that without expecting to much of her? Also, I guess I do believe that IQ is inborn and will develop naturally. So, as long as I don't "coleslaw" her... Truth is I'm kind of lazy, and I fear I will just muck things up. So, maybe that is what it comes down to.

Beautiful analogy, Grinity. I always appreciate your unique angles.

My DD did learn to read very effortlessly very early and so I got to be "lazy" about many things. She somehow learned octogon and trapeziod and so forth by one visit to grandma's where grandma named shapes. I wasn't one of those parents who was always saying things like, "There is the RED ball. There is ONE ball. The ball is ROUND..." I remember meeting a lady at the park like that and I wondered if I was dropping the ball (pun intended) by my less conscious approach. Many friends were using workbooks and flashcards and were dumbfounded that I never used them. It wasn't that I was such a purist. My DD would just not have any part of it. I did buy flashcards once when she was two and starting to read because I was excited by it, and the first time I showed them to her, she knew every word and so that was it for us. I waited until she was almost five to try something a little more structured since we were preschool drop outs and I felt we should try a little something. In general, she learns best and most from reading books and asking questions, so that is what we do. I am still lucky and still get to be lazy because she gets most things with very little exposure. As for math facts, it was a brief time of practicing them, which simply meant I would write down problems or ask them aloud, for short spurts every other day. I am not sure most people would call it hothousing but in many ways I felt like a closet hothouser because this wasn't her activity of choice. Now that she has many math facts mastered, she doesn't mind it as much and we don't do it as often.

Wow - I'm so glad! My DS hated multiplication math facts when it was time to learn them at school, and I just couldn't figure out what to do with them (I still have trouble with 7x6,7x7,7x8) but luckily for us, DH who is like a human calculator took over and just rote quizzed DS on his rides to school - over and over and over and over and over again for months. Maybe I should ask DH to do that for me? (kidding) With me, I learn and forget, learn and forget, learn and forget again.

So yeah, I think the younger the child learns the multiplication tables the less chance there is they will get 'too old' to be interested and stuck with teachers thinking that they aren't good at math because they aren't fast enough for those 'Mad Minutes.' Assuming of course that the parent can find a way to teach them without irritating the child 'too much.'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

He does hear stuff once and then it pops up months after I've forgotten it too. He also learns other lessons through homeschooling. I'm just betting on the wisdom of the educational system in years of refining what should be taught to children. If there's no real advantage for the future then why is it taught?
Fwiw I'm not raising mg. We have a long family history on the border of pg. I shrink as I type this.

I like the pop psychology about the strengths movement and finding your passion, as well. Because your life passion is not going to be in an area you find dry and boring. And it is most useful for parents to recognize when their child is passionate about something so the child can recognize the feeling when they're "in the zone". I also agree that if I wait until my son is seven instead of just under four to teach him first grade math books then he would learn it effortlessly in a few weeks rather than through daily lessons over several months. I think I'll help him with the dry boring parts though, I think he can handle cultivating his own passion. These aren't my final thoughts, it's very near the beginning because my kids are very young. I only made this thread because Amatrime asked me to move my post from her thread to it's own thread. I wasn't going to make my own thread because it's the State Law. It won't change this year to let him go. I just thought it was a great time because he's teaching himself all of those nursery rhymes off of his reading eggs subscription and I just thought it would be so cute if he could be doing that in the classroom.

About the multiplication I always post a link to this YouTube video because I think it's the best way to drill multiplication to start with.

I did all the writing with the numberline (therefore all the answers) under 10 for the first round and only had him "say it with me". The second round he answered one of the answers before I did. I was so excited. Later rounds I've given him the eraser so he could learn to apply the skip counting. Now he writes in the numbers. I come up with most of the answers he comes up with a few, about what he would get in a classroom.
I hope my posts like this aren't what's being banned as "journally" according to the guidelines. I usually share these in case somebody wants to drill their kid in a more effective and less boring way than flashcards. Yes, I guess it's teaching, not drilling or hothousing. Sometimes I post braggy posts, but one's like this are more like idea sharing, I thought. Oh yeah, we don't go over that much with the multiplication drill. A little more each day. The numberline now goes to 30. I don't think he's memorized any of it. Although I just threw him the factoid about the _x0=0's
Ellemnope we talk about the ww too. We've been to the battleship Alabama. That book "baseball saved us" is on my Amazon wish list.

I need help in the history department. We spent a couple weeks in DC touring all the museums multiple times each and my have exposed DD to too much too soon. I have considerably backed off, because she got obsessed with war.

Just yesterday we were in the car listening to NPR. They were talking about some kind of UN thing going on. I actually wasn't listening. Who was? The three-year-old in the car seat. All of the sudden, she gets excited and yells, "weapon systems? Mustard gas! Nuclear weapons! Mom, did you hear that? They talking about war. I love war!" Then she started arguing with herself quietly about how she likes both war and peace.

You cannot make this stuff up, right?

But, it seems slightly inappropriate for a three year old. We did get two small books a couple weeks ago. One is about General Washington's Dog. The other is about Abe Lincoln's hat. They are perfect.

Still, last week she was being naughty and teased, "I'm rebelling. I'm a rebel!" I joked that Abe Lincoln would not approve. She got mad and said, "Abraham Lincoln is dead. He was seceded!" I told her she meant assassinated.

"Yeah, he was shot in the head," she said. OMG, how I wish I could take back that painting she saw in American History Museum.

Make sure you never watch the cartoon video of people melting after a nuclear bomb goes off. I still remember that one as a small child. I think it was showing Hiroshima.

Also, I remmeber NOVA terrifying me showing how the earth was going to be absorbed by the sun boiling off all the water and killing everyone.

Can't think of anything else based in reality that scared me as a child.

You could always tour the re-enactment areas, like Colonial Williamsburg and the like, and focus on the "how people lived back then" books.

I concur with eema above . I get excited when I see what they can do, I think what about this. It is so obvious when they don't want to do it that I back off or I invest in cool programs but then we have no time to use it because we're too busy doing other activities.

Anyone else end up with lots of "educational" toys sitting in a corner . I would think how cool, but my kids preferred the real world or would already be past point of needing whatever the item would bring (leap-pad, leapster, that type of thing). I ended up donating things...Maybe this post will save some new parents some bucks.

Eema, you have no idea how comforting it was to hear that. My DD8 is just like that. Her 2nd grade teacher said DD was the most voracious reader she'd had in years, and had the highest reading scores she'd seen in years, but when I ask DD if she wants to go the library, she usually declines. She's too busy playing outside, watching TV, or playing computer games. The science books I bought her after she asked some really good science questions remain untouched.

Is there a black market for selling a kid's unused IQ points? Or how about some good kids' encyclopedias?

I think you have over stated things here, I agree somewhat with the 2nd para. But I think assuming that the highly gifted will require less time and repetition than the MG ignores the varying strengths of children at varying levels of giftedness. Memory, working memory in particular, plays a significant role in many kids of learning, but we often tell parents asking about their kids uneven IQ scores that more "average" WMI than their sky high g loaded scores is common for gifted kids and not worry about it, or even that their GAI is a better indicator of their giftedness than their FSIQ. And what about the kid with a particular gift for math but not so much for literacy, are they less HG or PG because learning literacy is not quite like falling off a log?

Not every HG or PG child will be a leaper, it does not necessarily make them less gifted. Though certainly the leapers may have different learning needs and may be easier to ID as gifted (or not if they get bored and disengage).

I absolutely agree that they think and learn differently, and rapidly and have a constant need for stimulation. But, particularly at the HG level (which is what you mentioned) they won't all be leapers, and memory, particularly working memory, does impact the style with which a child learns. Davidson does accept children whose GAI puts them in the Davidson "PG" zone while their FSIQ does not, due to poor WMI or PSI.

Kids who don't necessarily have a gifted range WMI and PSI to match their VCI/PRI are quite possibly the ones whose parents may feel more sensitive about being accused of hothousing because we DO need to drill some things with our kids in order for them to have the basic skills to enable them to run with their deep thoughts.

I am probably sensitive to this because I have one who is 2E and one who is HG but does not tend to learn academics without some company and/or support. She learns fast and she has no tolerance for repetition, but while she learns some things by apparent osmosis others we do need to go over more than once and your wording implies that kids that don't have the memory to make their learning seem instantaneous are not infact HG or PG.

My HG daughter is more a one for deep and profound thinking than for the learning of facts for example. She's never seemed especially interested in collecting information. To be honest when we were asked what she was interested in when she started school this term DH and I couldn't pin point any one thing. But she spends A LOT of time exploring the real world and thinking deeply. There has been something markedly different about her since the day she was born. But she's not a leaper. Or perhaps her leaps are not necessarily in areas that are overtly academic (as yet).

Sorry to clarify - I am sure any parent of a gifted child may get accused of hothousing, and that this may happen more often the more gifted and more overt their child's skills are. But if your child does learn very independently and is a leaper then at least you can be very comfortable that it IS all your child. Where as if your child is more of the thinks-great-thoughts-but-needs-help-with-the-basic-facts type, then you may actually need to do work with them to enable the progress they want to make - which might then leave you wondering if those hot housing accusations are justified.

YES! This is my DS1!

And we wants to learn but can't tell me what he wants to do. I would feel a lot less worried if he asked me to teach him to add, than if he is just acting up or seeking stimulation from TV and so I SUGGEST learning to add.



Ooooh goood question! That is very true. What about all those who hot house pleases and thank yous? :p

Personally, I don't think that working with your child is hot housing--especially when it's to get your child the tools to do something that he or she is yearning to do. I think that there are a lot of leapers who need support with some of the basics because they jump over that stage of learning following the bigger, more abstract concepts and thinking. One of the easiest places to see this is with young writers whose ability to express ideas and feelings in writing is well outside the norm, but who may have spelling and punctuation that no one would ever point to as proof of giftedness. A supportive teacher or parent provides opportunities for the child to soar with the expressive aspect of writing, while working on bulking up the spelling and punctuation.

To my thinking, leapers aren't always kids who absorb facts and never need any facilitation to learn anything. It seems to me that some leapers are the kids who swallow ideas whole and have difficulty motivating themselves to go back and fill in the details. I'm thinking that both kinds of kids need an instructional approach that minimizes in-class repetition and maximizes pace and depth.

I think part of the problem is that we are parenting these children in communities and schools that still operate under a lot of myths about giftedness. When schools still operate under the premise that "gaps" negate giftedness, we either need to work on filling in the gaps or resign ourselves to having our children starve in classrooms that have nothing to offer other than the filling in of a few gaps. As that is intolerable for our children, it becomes intolerable to us too.

Wise words Taminy. I actually don't think I hothouse my kids at all. But I think I have taken that to the extent of coleslawing them for fear of it being inappropriate to work on stuff because it wasn't AGE appropriate. Seriously I have done more work on using a fork than I have reading, but the reading is going better than for fork usage. Sigh.

And Annette - I absolute agree with the bit of your post that GM quoted.

this may seem a bit of an aside, but I wanted to add that my DD5 makes herself fairly hothouse proof because she sings, hums, wiggles, jumps, and blurts the whole time we try to do anything. Even math facts were sung in theatrical voices. Ah, it can get on my nerves and so I can only take so much LOL Anyone elses kid do anything like this?

My son has started to speak like a robot. It's really OTT when he uses his robot voice when he's also talking by sounding out each letter of a word.

Your observation reminded me of some species of plants in our area. For the first year, a newly planted variety must have it's nurturer water throughout the summer and fall. After the first year, they have established their tap root and can be left to water themselves for the most part.

To Twinkletoes: Yes

Also wrt gaps, I hear this a lot from our school. While sometimes they have a point my issue is that it really shouldn't take a year to fill in some of these gaps? Example, order of operations. Student hasn't ever really been exposed to exponents but knows basic order of operations. it shouldn't take weeks of teaching to explain an exponent, what it means and that it comes first after evaluating parentheticals? I'm thinking maybe a very short session, not weeks of practice, right? I'm constantly reminded by friends that my paradigm is off......

I'm smiling over the talk about flashcards. I hated them as a child and really hated when my mom "hothoused" me in forth grade when she was told by the teacher that I was doing my multiplication work at school by super-fast finger counting.

So, along comes DS. He's a mathy type who has loved numbers as long as I can recall. He would/still demand(s) counting at night instead of a story to relax.

I thought, "He will like flashcards!" Um, he does. Just not in the way tradition dictates they be used. His idea of flashcard use is to throw them around the room. Pick a few up and look at them and throw them down again. Maybe place all the 1 times cards in a row. Maybe place all the cards with an answer with "4's" in them in a row.

Is he learning? Yes. Just how he wants.

Yes. But I often set him up then go wash dishes and keep checking in.

Right. I spent some time thinking about this myself when DD was a toddler and seemed especially ripe for hothousing (although I know I could also hothouse her easily right now by plopping her in front of Khan Academy videos....man, that place is amazing). Why are some things okay to teach and others are not? I guess fork skills are a life skill whereas academics are more specialized, but...? And we did absolutely hothouse some physical skills with no fear that anyone would "think anything." But that was to get her up to age-appropriateness. I guess perhaps the assumption is that teaching can be painful and that one should not prolong the "pain" by moving the child past an age-appropriate level?? Thus far and no further? Is that it?

In any case, DD was already REALLY different as a toddler and I felt like I didn't want to accentuate it any more. I was accused of hothousing once, by a nurse, of all people (I forget what DD had done to merit this)--she said, in tones dripping with scorn, "Oh, I see you WORK with her a lot." It remains a vivid memory--probably too vivid.

Not sure how to take this one. Did you feel this way because the opinion was unsolicited? Hoping it is not a dig at the profession.

Back to twinkletoes comment. �I didn't have time to type more, but I sure want to commisurate. �The boy's latest game? �He lines up 3 stepstools and runs down the hall and jumps from stool to stool. �Rinse. Repeat. �For an hour at a time. �The mall playground is the best thing anyone ever thought to make. �We go to the outdoor playground less because of the extreme summer heat here. �
In response to ultrimarina,
and possibly amitrine (since I'm not sure which part of my post you wanted a this new thread posted to discuss?)
I think maybe they think that if the parent does not show restraint then, "what does that leave for them to learn in kindergarten?" and the unspoken social ripples that choice makes.
I think there's another type who think that think along the lines of education, by nature, teaches a mind to think in a box. �Therefore, what a waste! �And so young. �That's almost right. �They say learning another language allows you to think about things that other culture believes that your culture doesn't even have words for (citation required), or something like that.

Wow - I came to this thread late, but I am so glad it exits!

Dd is un-hothouse-able as far as I can see. Any time I have tried to bump her up in an area (for example maths facts - her school seems to think she is incapable of conceptualising anything unless she can do her maths facts quickly, which is not the case...sigh), she'll humour me for a week or so and then she's done. She has NO interest in detail. She's a conceptual girl. But her lack of interest in formal learning at home (if a teacher asked her to do it, a completely different matter) has always left me wondering if she's as gifted as her test results say. Then I think about her in the context of ND kids and think, yes, yes she is. But her lack of skill at basic stuff lead others to think she's not as bright as she is and so every now and again I get frustrated - completely because of my own worries - and try and force something. And then I realise I am being ridiculous - fortunately usually pretty quickly!

I can't tell you how glad I am to hear others have similar issues - I do love this forum

I read this as saying that this individual's behavior didn't live up to the high standards of professionalism that one has come to expect by this very excellent profession.
((shrugs))
Grinity

In the begining, DS15 was desperate to learn anything and everything.
Then the school years did a good job of convincing him that school wasn't the place for learning, so he didn't want to learn there, but still would go on 'kicks' of wanting to learn on his own or during certain weekend programs.

Lately he understands the whole 'give and take' thing with school and is willing to perform at school, and I think he's finding that he is finding interesting learning there (of course this is a boarding school 10 hours from home)

Not sure if he fits neatly into either group, but very grateful that he's 'bribable' and willing to put effort in at school.

((Hugs)) eema - hope your kids find something that turns on the 'love to learn' switch.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Personally, I believe they are all born with a desire to learn. IT is part of being human. It can however be destroyed.

There are kids who love to learn but who want don't like to be taught. And kids who love to be taught when they ask for it but don't want to be plugged into a very standardized curriculum that may not move at the right pace. For many kids it really does take time and space to develop the urge to work at anything - if there are electronics ready to step in that can discourage that development.

This is my daughter. While I say she is un-hothouse-able - it's certainly not that she has no interest in learning, she just isn't interested in being taught in a structured way. At least by me or DH. She likes to learn in a random, hands on way - to have her questions answered and her interests facilitated. She tends to learn and expand her ideas, and to problem solve, through fantasy. Flash cards are hard to fit in to a many months long dramatic saga about being a courtier in the 16th century (we tend to live much of our lives as characters from dd's books...sigh)

Card and dice games were extremely popular among 16th century courtiers. There might yet be hope for "hothousing"! Blackjack built more fluency with addition facts for my son than anything else we tried.

http://www.greydragon.org/library/15th-16thcardgames.html

Giftodd
this is us too - although not usually people - we have been bugs, animals, characters, robots, you name it, it just has to come in groups of 3! He uses the information gleaned from his books to feed these imaginative adventures. Its fun, although sometimes strange when he addreses us by one of the names in public!!

DeHe

And this is why I love this forum! How can we explain our kids to others who don't get it? Yes, she is smart... scary smart. And, no, you probably don't see it because she can't be bothered to show you, or she doesn't care about the subject you're discussing, or there is an ant crawling across the floor that could be a great start for the ant colony she always talks about and never makes. You guys help to keep me sane!

Yes, yes, yes!

And thanks for the Black Jack idea, aculady. Great idea.

YES!



Yes, us too! I seem to be spending an awful lot of time being Ms Frizzle right now. At least that's easier than when they want DH to be The Frizz

I think my children are not un-teachable, but what we do certainly doesn't look like tradtional school. If I was to provide worksheets only, it would be an exercise in frustration for all of us!

Someone here once said that usually the environment provides a good level of challenge for children, but for some kids, it isn't challenging enough. So I'm trying to provide a level of challenge without expecting the output level of a higher child.

Lol. You mean your kids weren't born gullible, I mean teachable.

Ummm I think that's what I mean... Gees, I really need to get more sleep. Then I might make sense...

Oh, no--not a dig at the profession at all! The opposite--I would expect a pediatric nurse to be professional and neutral, not to throw out this kind of thing at parents. Some random person on the street, okay.

That's key for some 'quite asynchronous' gifties. I thought my son would never learn to read at all, due to the 'baby-ish' content of the early readers availible at the time. I'd joke to the children's librarian: "Do you have an easy-readers on the topic of poisons or weapons?"
grinity

Love this.

Sorry for high-jacking the thread. Couldn't let that one slip by.. I'm too proud of my profession!

LOL, yes, and maybe something on black holes and relativity with pictures, and a robot!

DeHe

All I can say on this subject is that I've been hothoused enough by my children and I'm tired

ain't that the truth!

There are some errors that I think of as characteristic of "hothousing" -- maybe like a hothoused plant raised under badly placed lamps which can never grow to maturity because it over-stretched. Anyway, things where the adult seems more interested in the performance of the answer rather than their own interest in the topic, and is not very concerned about accuracy.

In my area, a kid is as likely to be pop-quizzed on some random aspect of what they're looking at as said "hello" to. My skin just CRAWLS when DS gets asked "what sound does a cat make" out of the blue, just because there were animals tangentially present in something, like a cat in the background of a photo or whatever.

I tend to think of it as hothousing becasue there's one "correct" answer, and it's pretty darned clear to me that there is more than one correct answer. DS liked "Dogs" by Sandra Boynton, and he still gets the funniest (subtle, I have to admit) look on his face when asked "what sound does a dog make." He regularly answers "lalala" for the pig question... also a Boynton reference.

The same is true of "what shape?" "what colour?" etc. These are almost always ambiguous in real life. DS once said "parrallelogram" for a square, which the asker totally didn't get (took me a while, too). I remember a cartoon where the parent was carefully trying to explain a caveman to her son while the son sounded out "australopithicus africanus... Homo Ergaster..." etc.

The other problem with this kinda quizzing is that it interfears in normal socialization and relationship-building, since people do it to the exclusion of saying "hello," "what are you looking at?" "that looks interesting" and other open-ended conversation starters.

Another similar type of thing is when people over-reach their own knowledge to "teach..." after a recent train-viewing trip, DS corrected someone "that's not the snokesnack [sic] that is the frottle [sic -- throttle] dome." Wanna make a bet the asker did NOT get that one. He got carefully corrected "yeeeesssss, That's the SMOKESTACK!!!" And quizzed until he relented and called it the snokesnack. I pointed out he'd been right to him, and he just said "I know." <sigh>


Sorry about the bad writing, I'm too tired to clean it up. But I had a different perspective, so had to put it out there. I'm just like that.

-Mich

These are some very good points Michaela, thank you giving me something to think about this afternoon!

Yes, La Texican, DS was always against 'performing in any way. I suppose I hadn't really thought of that as hothousing, but you are right. It is worse with other people.

Well. I spend all day, every day with him. I'm a housewife. He mostly won't "perform for me", but he will work with me. "I work with him", is the phrase I can say. On the one hand I'm happy to be able to teach him at home for another year. On the other hand, what was the school thinking, letting him make a whole 'nother years progress at our pace before accepting him?! I just hoped he should go this year because he'll be four, just a month too late. All the other 4 yr olds are going.

lol. So so true.

So weird that it can be so true, but not be understood by so many people (strangers, friends....)

Mr W was ecstatic when he went in with older kids. His first comment to me when I picked him up was, "Dad, they can talk!!" I imagine that putting him back in with his age peers would be like a scene from the Planet of the Apes where Heston meets the non-verbal humans. So maybe its a blessing in disguise for you.

If your kid is off the charts and progressing nicely through their learning curve, then to put them in with their age peers means that they will slow down or stop in their progress. To me that is unacceptable. But what is the alernative?

The school situation is a big issue with us as well. We've spent a lot of time looking at the laws and programs various schools - both public and private - provide in Texas.

The public schools will allow early entrance to 1st as a 5 year old if the kid passes the 3rd grade TAKs test and jumps through a number of hoops. But even first grade for a PG kid at 5 will mean learning to read rather than reading fluently.

There is only one district in North Texas that allows early entrance based on standardized IQ/achievement testing and then takes those kids through an accelerated program. I talked to parents in that program and parents who left it. Its not a true accelerated program past the 2d grade.

There are a number of "magnet" schools but the school district as a whole has very few National Merits as a % of the student body.

Just about every so called "elite" private school has a hard age range. Some come right out and tell you that "No Exceptions." Yet their curriculum is no different from the public schools at that age and no different at the higher grade levels as well. A handful of kids end up working at a very high level and do college courses in the 10th grade and beyond. So what are you paying them to do? These schools do have a lot of National Merit grads, but I wonder if that is more a function of repeating the same material over and over and over.

There is one regional program in Math that is run by a former Romanian math professor out of UTD. It seeks to ID mathy kids and then accelerate their math education with them doing Abstract Algebra while still in HS. Pretty cool.

So, there appears to be no one place to go to for education from 3 until 18. The two PG kids parents I talked to both now home school as even the accelerated elementary or magnet programs did not work past age 8 or 9. Some other parents have had skips in the magnet programs but supplement a lot at home then move to a district with a top HS.

So, I think it goes back to something Kriston said a few years ago and Grinity expanded on - that the kids have to lead and you must make adjustments.


--

I've read through a lot of regional forums and I see a number of parents say "my kids tested at 3rd grade level but we put her in K and that was the best choice." then you see another comment about how studies have shown they call catch up by 3rd grade. LOL. I do not want that for Mr W - I know what that was like for me.

LOL.

The house gets hot from the kid being in it. I have a permanent sun burn!

Does anyone know where this claim actually comes from? I just saw it again somewhere. Is it based on the study that showed that kids with explicit early reading instruction eventually lost their advantage over kids without it? (I don't know what that study specifically is, either, but I've seen it discussed.)

My best guess is that it comes from studies looking at the persistence of Head Start benefits. (For non-USAians, Head Start is essentially hothousing for low-SES kids - you put them in an academically enriched preschool so they enter K with the skills that high-SES kids have - knowing letters and numbers, knowing how to hold and open a book, etc.)

My best guess is up until third grade everybody's learning to read and write. �After third grade everybody's reading and writing to learn. �I've heard a saying that went something like that. �

DS15 was very upset by this same part of the problem back in his daycare days, when many of the kids literally didn't talk.

I don't know if TX still offers gradeskips by testing, but they used to - worth checking into to at least get the base grade right.

I think the private school kids have a higher percentage of NMS because they had higher IQs to start with - as there is a fairly strong correlation between income and IQ of parents, and a quite strong correlation between IQ of parents and IQ of kids. As we know, drill seems to have 'mixed results' with gifted kids - it benifits some of the time and produces worse results other of the time.

Good luck!
Grinity

Although, according to this teacher/blogger it takes longer than 3rd grade to level the playing field since teachers professors have embraced constructivist theory of education and without phonics the ability gap widens.

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/Smart-Teachers-in-Stupid-Schools.aspx
Granted the teacher mentions Special Ed, but notice she says few ADULTS are as responsible as constructivists expect children to be.
�It's the anti-unschool. �

I'm not anti-unschool. �I forgot who said it, but someone here said, "here we support whatever's working for your family. �We're a very eclectic mix."

Eta: �what I've heard about headstart is that it's not really educational, it's mostly to teach needy kids to wash their hands and say please and thank you, things the parents usually teach. �My mom told me that about head start when I was a kid and asked about it.
Hothousing is more like the Amy Chau, tiger moms who make their kids practice the fiddle instead of watching cartoons and that's something the headstart kids can't afford. �
"Hothoused Children"
That book was scathingly �called, "The Dilemma Of The Instant Expert"
"Or, how a childless writer with no experience as an educator nevertheless decides to tell parents of gifted children where they've gone wrong." �
Read the full �review here:
http://giftedhomeschoolers.org/articles/hothousedkids.html

The reviewer of the famous "Hothoused Kids" book attributes the author with saying that �there�s a continuum of involved parents, ranging from committed, to extreme committed, to too-extreme.�. ��

I've gotta be somewhere in that range, methinks.

This is not an accurate description of the Head Start classrooms where I've spent time. Yes, students are taught to wash hands before snack and after using the bathroom just like they are in any preschool. I don't think you'll find that groups of three and four year olds (no matter the socioeconomic status of their parents) will necessarily have their own orderly practices for handwashing in an unfamiliar environment.

Head Start centers vary in the curriculum they use but you will find many of the preschool standards - reading stories and nursery rhymes, hands on sensory play, learning the alphabet and numbers, movement to music, centers for art activities, learning to play cooperatively with other kids, building with blocks, etc. I'm not suggesting it would be intellectually stimulating to your child but I don't think it is at all accurate to suggest that HeadStart is just about teaching low income kids to wash their hands because their parents didn't.

Oh. Sorry. Like I said my mom told me that and I had to have been young when she said it.

I caught the principal at the school a few days before school started. �I took a few samples of worksheets and a cut and paste project I was sure the boy can easily replicate without instruction on a bad day, so as not to overstate his ability. �The principal looked at it and said, "they don't start testing for GT until kindergarten.". Then I said, well, he's a late birthday. �Can we do an early entry into pre-k for an advanced learner? �She said she'd look and I could look and if there was anything to file to make it happen she'd file the papers, but she'd never heard of it happening. �I called the district GT and the regional GT. �I called a cousin who's a shrink and she said her old college professor does nothing but administer tests for a living, so I know where to go when we need testing. �

Long story short. �He can take pre-k next year. �(he'll turn 4 next month-this year). �The following year he can take the test for credit by examination to skip kindergarten. �I'm not planning that far ahead to know if he should skip it or not. �
You can skip up to one grade per year. �I'm not sure he needs to be skipped and rushed. �That's one thing that has to be child-led. �"sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow"** �I know, and even one of the district GT people I talked to said, "the school probably never will meet his educational needs.". I said, well, I already knew that. �I know about Aleks and Epgy and I have a good support group at the Davidson Public Gifted Forum. �

I think what I'm thinking is at least get the kids through elementary school here for the specific Laredo area culture that is important to the hubby. �We both believe education is a priority. �We will continue supplementing. �I will change the plan if the kids are crying, frustrated every day or bored and becoming behavior problems.
I plan to send the kids to school for social reasons. �It has nothing to do with the homeschooling and socialization myths. �I just think he'll like going to school. �

**"Life's a dance you learn as you go
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow."
By Mr. John Michael Montgomery�

They do. But here is the problem. The HS program in TX has not changed since I went to HS. Ap calc in the 12 grade even in schools with massive numbers of NMSF kids and AP Humanities covering the same stuff I did.

In my HS we had two NMSF, and both of us snoozed through AP Calc. Given the Flynn Effect and the much better prep kids have today, you would think the Senior math class would be on the same level as a 3rd year class in a Math major with AP calc in the 10 grade.



I thought so too, but I've spent time with some of the kids from the top private schools in my area and, while they are bright, they are not driven polymaths. And the private curriculum suffers from the same limitations as the top public schools'. And looking through the curriculum, it seems to peak in intensity and subject matter in the 9th grade with the other subsequent years being a rehash in depth. So, I do think it is just intense preparation rather than sheer brilliance.

I also think there is a bit of academic red shirting going on and I also found out that a number of kids get a lot of PSAT and SAT prep and outside tutoring in the summer.

A coworker's son was doing two digit multiplication in his head at 5. He took a number of tests with FSIQ > 140 and the district still refused to skip him to first grade.

I talked to two GT coordinators last week and neither had ever heard of kids skipping K. They had heard of limited skipping in later years, ie skip 2d, etc, but it was rare. I also did a lexis-nexis search for kids graduating early ( ie 16 or younger) in North Texas and found nothing.

I've heard of a few kids GED'ing out and going to college at 16, though.

I agree with this. We have a number of friends with kids in top private schools. While I'd guess all these people are all above average IQ, only one family would realistically be identified as gifted. Overall this group are people with family money and good jobs through good connections or they are people who have been prepared to work very hard and take risks (and are smart enough that they have been well calculated risks, but not so smart as to avoid the risk all together). To me it's the propensity to take calculated risks that is the common theme in these friends' financial success rather than anything else. From what I understand from all the reading I've done (and I am aware this is a generalization), the gifted population is more prone to being risk adverse and therefore not necessarily more likely to make up the population of prestigious schools (risk adverse gifted parents = not necessarily highest income earners = gifted off spring not necessarily at prestigious schools, etc).

The hard work and risk taking, the desire to give their kids the skills to achieve results are all things that make the kids from those schools high achievers. Also, it's in the interests of those schools to achieve excellent results and so they will ensure those kids get them through rigorous coaching and plenty of support.

I also have a theory (ah yes, another of my personal, untested theories) that what really gets people in to top positions more than anything else is the feeling they deserve it. That kind of mentality means that those people naturally position themselves in their work environment in such a way that they get noticed and validated. Perhaps that is the quality that is hot housed more than any other in elite private schools

The things you are describing - developing long-term goals, goal-directed hard work, calculated (but not impulsive) risk-taking, are manifestations of high executive functioning, which is an even better predictor of success than IQ, according to an article Bostonian recently posted here.

Fortunately, executive functioning can be developed and trained; unfortunately,one of the things that develops it is practice with progressively more difficult tasks requiring planning, problem-solving, and goal-directed hard work. So one of the very real costs of under-challenge for gifted children is a lack of opportunity to develop skills in executive functioning.

I concur.

Excellent point, aculady. This is my biggest concern for dd. I watch the other kids in her class trying, failing, trying something else - learning perseverance and patience and how to asses risk. Dd is possibly learning some of those executive skills in her extra curricula sports, but not in the classroom at the moment.