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Posted By: Clark First Post - College Advice - 03/19/11 02:48 PM
Hi! While I should have been on here years ago, I'm glad that I'm finally here. I need help from those who have had their children go off to college at a young age.

The good news is that my son is 15 and has been accepted at several excellent colleges.

The "bad" news is that he's our youngest and I don't have experience at this level.

What can I expect? He's gotten EA at Caltech and MIT and he just received his "likely letter" from Harvard. While this is all good news, I feel in over my head. As obvious as this will sound, I don't know what I don't know.

Any help...advice?

Thanks in advance!!
Posted By: Clark Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/19/11 03:28 PM
Oldest! Oops!
Posted By: Grinity Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/19/11 09:22 PM
congrats!
Have you visited the campuses? Will dorm living be allowed?
Grinity
Posted By: Clark Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/20/11 02:07 PM
Thanks! We started visiting a couple of years ago. He's been involved in math competitions and math camps, so we visited as he attended these.

I think all of the schools in which he's interested requires freshmen to live in the dorms.
Posted By: Nik Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/20/11 04:30 PM
Congrats!
No advice per se, but I do have a bit of experience. My oldest went to college at 16, she received a full academic scholarship to TCU and lived on campus in the "Honors" dorm. The college was only an hour away, so we figured it wasn't such a big deal since she could come home on weekends if she wanted to.

For us, it turned out to be a bit of a disappointment. My DD enjoyed the academics but outside of class, she did not really enjoy herself too much, I think for several reasons but primarily she felt out of place socially.

She tried to get involved and joined organizations etc, but she found that she could not participate in many of the activities due to her age (i.e. in the service fraternity, she couldn't even volunteer to walk dogs in the shelter and many of the social gatherings occurred at clubs that you had to be 18 to go to).

Additionally, even in the Honors dorm, there was a lot of partying and alcohol which my DD wanted no parts of, several times she found a passed out girl laying on her bed with a barf pail - my DD's room-mates would be keeping an eye on on a friend that would binge periodically(!).

In hindsight, I think it might have been easier if she had gone further away because in our case it was just too easy for her to give up trying to assimilate at the University. She would just meet up with her high school buddies off campus on the weekends.

After a year, despite a 3.5 college GPA and a great scholarship, my DD transferred to a State University where some of her friends were going. She had a much better time although she was no longer being challenged as much academically. She is now in Grad school at 20, and very happy being the big fish in the little pond, so to speak.

Perhaps your son's involvement in the math clubs will make the assimilation easier for him. He will at least have an automatic base group to be a part of. Or perhaps your son is less dependent on that sense of "belonging" than my DD. I do think things might have gone very differently if my DD would have joined the marching band in College - then she would have belonged to a group and I suspect that would have made a big difference. No regrets though, she is doing great and I am very proud of her.

Good luck!
Posted By: Nicole2 Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/20/11 05:52 PM
Gah, this post has forced me to delurk.

Those three schools are ones that I am intimately acquainted with. All three of them are used to young college students, and a 15 year old will not be terribly out of place. On the young side, but possibly not even the youngest.

As a mother, I would not send my 15 year old to Caltech. There just isn't enough adult supervision and very bright kids can get up to unhealthy sorts of insanity. A lot depends on what Hovse a student sorts into, and some are more sane than others, but I wouldn't want my child there at 15.

Harvard and MIT both do well with supervision for Freshmen.

Of the two schools, I would allow him to decide. Harvard is easy. It can be academically challenging, but he should be able to get straight As with very little effort and he will have a lot of free time to spend on extra-curriculars. A trap many undergrads at Harvard fall into is killing themselves with the extracurriculars and doing none of them well. The one exception to easy As is the engineering department where there isn't any grade inflation. The Freshmen dorms have folks looking out for the kids.

MIT will be challenging, and all his classmates will be challenged, even the ones who are used to breezing through. At some point every student at MIT feels stupid (same with Caltech, but there's less adult support). A common trap is some kids with previous preparation do just fine their first year but never learn to study and crash and burn spectacularly their sophomore or junior year (also a problem at CalTech), eventually being outstripped by kids who were struggling their first year. MIT is a much more stressful environment than Harvard. BUT they have probably the most comprehensive residential support system of any school I have seen, possibly any school anywhere. They have to. They put enormous effort into keeping their suicide rate the same as the national average for that age group and there will be someone looking out for your kid. They even have "suicide days" once per month when they insert a no classes holiday because months without holidays have more suicides on average. There are many points of referral for mental health counseling through the residence, classes, and so on. People will notice if your kid disappears. Adults will also keep them from blowing themselves up, for the most part (not true at Caltech). Kids at MIT generally have one extra curricular activity in addition to their dorm activities. If he does go to MIT do not allow him to sort into Senior House (the drug dorm). There are drug floors in the other dorms as well that you will want to put your foot down about if he chooses MIT. East campus dorms tend to be more quirky and West campus dorms tend to be more "normal." The frats are stereotypical frats and I wouldn't let my kid in one at 16 or 17.

If it were my son going I would lean towards Harvard, but make sure he knows what he's getting into at MIT if he wants to go there. Also, although there's a lot more quirky types at MIT than Harvard, both campuses have both socially normal folks and quirky folks. It's easier to have friends while socially awkward at MIT, but not impossible at Harvard, and vice versa for socially ept. There's probably more room for mental growth at MIT, but there's plenty of time for growth in graduate school... Harvard is a good transition. If he's just thinking masters, MIT has a great 5 year MEng program. And if MIT academics get too tough, he can always drop down to course 15 (business). Though Harvard also has better financial aid, as I'm sure you've noticed.
Posted By: amylou Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/20/11 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Nicole2
As a mother, I would not send my 15 year old to Caltech. There just isn't enough adult supervision and very bright kids can get up to unhealthy sorts of insanity. A lot depends on what Hovse a student sorts into, and some are more sane than others, but I wouldn't want my child there at 15.

I echo the sentiments about Caltech, although my experience is not so recent. I was in the dorms as a typically-aged college student, and I'd say "insufficient adult supervision" sums up my concerns well. Some of the young kids (14, 15, 16 yo) in my dorm did okay, but in hind sight as a parent, I'd say most of them would have been better off at home. The kids I know of who started at 17-18yo but were "over-prepared" as freshman fared much better in the long run than the very young, on average. I think the extra maturity went a long way in getting the most out of the experience.

Caltech may be a unique case, but I'd say my experience there has significantly influenced how I advocate for my kids - I am very eager to have them at home until 17-18yo. We have not grade-accelerated our public school kids, although test scores suggest they could have easily managed multiple skips. We are lucky to have some great teachers who have helped keep them challenged. They (twins) start middle school (6th grade) in Sept. at 11 yo, and it is still possible they'll run out of curriculum before they finish high school. But we're lucky to have a great (for now, anyway) state U. close by where they can take classes as high schoolers in that case.
Posted By: amylou Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/21/11 03:11 PM
p.s. on Caltech. -- Caltech offers a unique experience in many ways. I have never regretted the experience or the private school tuition -- there was definite value added and unique opportunities for students with a science/math/engineering inclination. However, when I went there, the drop out rate was about 30%, and some of those kids crashed and burned pretty hard. My previous post may have come across as an unintended diss of Caltech. Being an undergrad there can be an exceptional experience in a good way - but I encourage parents and students alike to do their homework and make an informed choice.
Posted By: chenchuan Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/21/11 04:20 PM
Congrats Clark! it is all good news, nothing to worry about :-)

I think that you should enjoy the moment and keep an open mind and wait for all information to come in (your son will probably get some more admission letters).

One thing to consider is finical aid, Harvard is by far the most generous one to middle/upper middle class families. MIT and CIT are a bit less. Depending your finical situation, that may or may not be an issue.

In April, admitted students will be invited to various campus for a couple days. Colleges are putting best shows to attract those who they already admitted (to keep yield high). MIT will give you a spectacular show (about how fun and how exciting the campus can be) and kids all love it. But keep in mind that will not be the real daily experience. Harvard puts less effort on pre-freshman weekend although most admitted student still come anyways. I am not sure about CalTech's pre-fresh weekend. I encourage that you and your son take the time and money to attend these events because they do give you a feeling of what is like.

My younger daughter DD17 was choosing between Princeton, Stanford and MIT last year. She kept her card closely until last moment. In the end, she choose Princeton mostly based on Pre-fresh experiences. She never regret it.

What major he plan to take? I assume that it is something math/science or engineering. Kids do change their mind frequently. My older DD18 changed major from English/Lit to Math and left me stunned. That gives comprehensive university like Harvard an edge because kids can change their mind without getting stuck.



Posted By: Clark Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 12:36 AM
Thanks for the all the advice. I'd rather go in with my eyes open and aware. Our son is trying to decide among Caltech, Harvard and Princeton (waiting for that acceptance letter). He seems to be heading toward theoretical physics/astrophysics. His first research project won him recognition in both the Siemens Competition and the Intel Science Talent Search. He'll turn 16 in June and he's our oldest, so we're adjusting to this next step.

chenchuan, what is your Princeton daughter's major?
Posted By: Clark Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 12:39 AM
amylou, my son is very interested in continuing his research. If he chooses Caltech, do you think he could start as soon as he gets there? Some have suggested that he wait, but he really wants to do more research ASAP. Thoughts?
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 02:30 AM
Quote
The other thought I have is just something that has been rolling around in my brain. If one is going to go to grad school in a particular subject, I wonder if it may be better to go to undergrad somewhere *other* than the top school for that subject. I think there is something to be said for going to different schools for undergrad and grad school, just to have a more varied experience.

YES.

Do undergrad ONE place, and do grad work elsewhere.

Unless you have a VERY compelling reason, doing both at the same institution/department is generally not a good move career-wise. Particularly in Academia.

While I will also vouch for the value of undergrad research, the quality varies greatly. That is true at any institution, including those you've named.

It's dependent upon the student and the advisor to work out something which is truly meaningful. I've seen a lot of situations where undergrad research students got turned over to a post-doc that didn't want them in the first place, and left to putter aimlessly for a year, or worse-- be the lab lackey.

He needs to shop for a mentor ahead of time if he plans to continue the research he started. There will need to be a lab/PI willing to take it on-- and to FUND it. He'll need to select someone who seems to enjoy side projects, and has a good record of generating diverse publications as a result.

Some mentors are a better fit for some people than others; that isn't a personal failing on either person's part.

Generally speaking, most students are best served to go with the absolute BEST general education they can get for UNDERGRAD, because that provides the best foundation for specialized graduate work later.

DH and I both noted that in chemistry as grad students. Our good general preparation meant that we had the foundation to take research projects in unexpected directions with more aplomb than students who had gone to a specialist institution as undergrads.

My personal preference for undergrad education in the sciences is a school without a PhD program, because I tend to think that the undergrads get more hands-on experience and more attention from faculty. It teaches a student some things that peers at PhD-granting institutions instead never even know about-- because those things are handled by technicians, support staff, or grad students. But that's me; there's also the down side, which is that the money for state-of-the-art equipment is often absent, and there aren't the super-star researchers teaching at those schools.


A grad student, however, is going to be higher on the food chain than an undergrad... which means that it may be better to 'save' the institution with the super-stars for grad school when you'll have better one-on-one exposure to them.

Just my 0.02 there.

My DD is also interested in physics, and that is what I'd tell her.


Posted By: Bostonian Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by amylou
p.s. on Caltech. -- Caltech offers a unique experience in many ways. I have never regretted the experience or the private school tuition -- there was definite value added and unique opportunities for students with a science/math/engineering inclination. However, when I went there, the drop out rate was about 30%, and some of those kids crashed and burned pretty hard.

According to the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Technology

"The four-year graduation rate is 80.6% and the six-year rate is 88%, which is low compared to most leading U.S. universities, but substantially higher than it was in the 1960s and 70s. Students majoring in STEM fields traditionally have graduation rates below 70%."

Someone who starts out at Harvard majoring in physics but finds that he/she can't handle it can shift his/her major to many other subjects, including the social sciences and humanities. A Caltech student might decide to transfer to a less science-focused school. It would be good to know how many Caltech "drop-outs" successfully complete their bachelor's degrees somewhere else.
Posted By: passthepotatoes Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 12:50 PM
I don't think I'd worry about graduation or retention rates for Cal Tech. They are pretty good. 98% of students come back after their first year. 88.5% graduate by the six year mark (which is the one more often used now). That's not at all bad. Keep in mind the average six year graduation rate at US colleges is around 53%.

Posted By: Bostonian Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 01:33 PM
You may find this article interesting.

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/12/why_caltech_is_in_a_class_by_i.html

Minding the Campus
December 9, 2010
Why Caltech Is in a Class by Itself
By Russell K. Nieli

...

Of the top two dozen or so elite universities in America only one has
managed both to avoid the craziness of the post-60s intellectual fads,
and to establish something pretty close to a pure meritocracy --
California Institute of Technology, which has not received the general
recognition among academics that it clearly deserves.

The statistics on Caltech's students and faculty are simply
spellbinding. An entering Caltech freshman last year who received a
770 on the math SAT would be exceeded in this area by three-quarters
of his fellow entering freshmen. Many Caltech freshmen got a perfect
800 on their math SAT, while a near-perfect 1560 combination score
placed an incoming freshmen at only the 75th percentile of his
entering classmates. A combined SAT score of 1470 (the 99th percentile
by national standards) placed an entering Caltech freshman at only the
25th percentile among his fellow students. (At Harvard and Princeton,
by contrast, the 25th percentile is reached by a score of only 1380).
All recent Caltech undergraduates have scored 700 or above on the math
SAT, and far from being a bunch of inarticulate science and math
geeks, the vast majority have scored over 700 on the English verbal
SAT as well. Most Caltech matriculants have also taken numerous
Advanced Placement courses in high school, and attained perfect scores
on their AP exams. In short, Caltech is interested in enrolling only
the academically most accomplished and advanced students, who have a
genuine passion for the STEM subjects (science, technology,
engineering, mathematics), and virtually all of its entering students
have achieved at the 98th or 99th percentile in terms of their scores
on competitive national exams.

What this means is that at Caltech, there are no dumb jocks, dumb
legacies, or dumb affirmative action students. It is clear from its
published statistics that the non-academic criteria that preoccupy
admissions committees at all other elite universities count for little
at this beacon of pure meritocracy. Perhaps the most striking
difference from all other elite universities -- including institutions
like MIT and the University of Chicago which forgo athletic
recruitment -- is Caltech's complete indifference to racial balancing.
In a state and a region of the country with the largest Hispanic
population, Caltech's entering freshmen class in 2008 was less than 6
percent Hispanic (13 out of 236). The unwillingness to lower standards
for a larger black representation is even more striking -- less than 1
percent (2/236) of Caltech's 2008 entering freshmen were listed as
"non-Hispanic black". This "underrepresentation" of blacks and
Hispanics, of course, was more than made up for by the huge
"overrepresentation" of Asians. Only 4 percent of the U.S. population,
Asians made up a whopping 40 percent of the incoming freshmen class in
2008, a slightly larger proportion than the 39 percent figure for
whites. Applicants to Caltech are clearly seen as representing only
themselves and their own individual merit and achievement, not their
race or their ethnic group. As a professor at Caltech who has taught
there for many years explained to me in an email, "We try, like our
competitors, very, very hard to find, recruit, and nurture
underrepresented minorities but we won't bend our standards."

...
Posted By: amylou Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Clark
amylou, my son is very interested in continuing his research. If he chooses Caltech, do you think he could start as soon as he gets there? Some have suggested that he wait, but he really wants to do more research ASAP. Thoughts?

I think meaningful research opportunities for undergraduates is a great strength of Caltech. I am just guessing why people you spoke to suggest waiting rather starting as soon as he gets there: to take time to gauge coursework demands? to visit with multiple professors in multiple disciplines to find the perfect research match?

It wouldn't be good to put a lot of effort and energy into an exciting research project, and then fail courses at the end of the quarter. I think the curriculum has changed some since I was there back in the dark ages (when the attrition rate *was* nearly 30% - I am glad to hear they fixed that), but back then, I would say I knew of just a handful of students who didn't find the first year course load demanding/stressful, despite their spectacular pre-college achievements. Caltech is on a quarter system, so in the grand scheme of things, waiting until second quarter to start research could be wise for this reason.

But I would not make sweeping generalizations - you and your son know best his academic capabilities, what will be inspiring to him, and how well equipped he is to manage multiple demands. It could be that a research experience would provide the spark to motivate his coursework achievement. Can you visit some time this spring/summer and scope out research opportunities? In some cases, research groups may have a lot of flexibility in dynamically adjusting research expectations as needed over the ebb and flow of the academic year.
Posted By: chenchuan Re: First Post - College Advice - 03/24/11 03:53 PM
Hi Clark,

My younger daughter�s major is ORFI (Operational Research and Finical Engineering), one of departments in Princeton engineering school. So far so good, I have not seen any sign that she is going to switch to something else.

One thing that is a bit special about your son is his age. Both my daughters entered colleges at age 16 (my older one is at Harvard). But they are a bit older than your son and they are girls which is less an issue socially. Despite their age, I have not seen any problem with their ability interacting with people older than they are. Both had a lot of practice in middle and high school. You should take your son�s age and school�s social environment into account with college decision (CalTech has fewer girls :-)).

I would also watch out for those study abroad and foreign travel programs these schools may offer. It may be too early for your son to do those things at age 16 or 17. My older one traveled to Spain and Portugal for 2 weeks alone in Freshman winter break. Living in hostels and changing cities every two days. I did not have much contact with her through that time except occasional e-mails. Then she went on to an summer internship in Russia on Harvard's grant. She studied Russian and did some works for Russian Railway for 2 months. What we did not know at that time was that she traveled on trans-Siberian train alone from Moscow to Beijing which took a week. She disappeared into Mongolian wildness for several days with a couple European kids whom she met on the train. Don't get me wrong. I am proud of what she had done, but things could go bad easily.

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