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    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Clark Offline OP
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    amylou, my son is very interested in continuing his research. If he chooses Caltech, do you think he could start as soon as he gets there? Some have suggested that he wait, but he really wants to do more research ASAP. Thoughts?

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    The other thought I have is just something that has been rolling around in my brain. If one is going to go to grad school in a particular subject, I wonder if it may be better to go to undergrad somewhere *other* than the top school for that subject. I think there is something to be said for going to different schools for undergrad and grad school, just to have a more varied experience.

    YES.

    Do undergrad ONE place, and do grad work elsewhere.

    Unless you have a VERY compelling reason, doing both at the same institution/department is generally not a good move career-wise. Particularly in Academia.

    While I will also vouch for the value of undergrad research, the quality varies greatly. That is true at any institution, including those you've named.

    It's dependent upon the student and the advisor to work out something which is truly meaningful. I've seen a lot of situations where undergrad research students got turned over to a post-doc that didn't want them in the first place, and left to putter aimlessly for a year, or worse-- be the lab lackey.

    He needs to shop for a mentor ahead of time if he plans to continue the research he started. There will need to be a lab/PI willing to take it on-- and to FUND it. He'll need to select someone who seems to enjoy side projects, and has a good record of generating diverse publications as a result.

    Some mentors are a better fit for some people than others; that isn't a personal failing on either person's part.

    Generally speaking, most students are best served to go with the absolute BEST general education they can get for UNDERGRAD, because that provides the best foundation for specialized graduate work later.

    DH and I both noted that in chemistry as grad students. Our good general preparation meant that we had the foundation to take research projects in unexpected directions with more aplomb than students who had gone to a specialist institution as undergrads.

    My personal preference for undergrad education in the sciences is a school without a PhD program, because I tend to think that the undergrads get more hands-on experience and more attention from faculty. It teaches a student some things that peers at PhD-granting institutions instead never even know about-- because those things are handled by technicians, support staff, or grad students. But that's me; there's also the down side, which is that the money for state-of-the-art equipment is often absent, and there aren't the super-star researchers teaching at those schools.


    A grad student, however, is going to be higher on the food chain than an undergrad... which means that it may be better to 'save' the institution with the super-stars for grad school when you'll have better one-on-one exposure to them.

    Just my 0.02 there.

    My DD is also interested in physics, and that is what I'd tell her.




    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by amylou
    p.s. on Caltech. -- Caltech offers a unique experience in many ways. I have never regretted the experience or the private school tuition -- there was definite value added and unique opportunities for students with a science/math/engineering inclination. However, when I went there, the drop out rate was about 30%, and some of those kids crashed and burned pretty hard.

    According to the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Technology

    "The four-year graduation rate is 80.6% and the six-year rate is 88%, which is low compared to most leading U.S. universities, but substantially higher than it was in the 1960s and 70s. Students majoring in STEM fields traditionally have graduation rates below 70%."

    Someone who starts out at Harvard majoring in physics but finds that he/she can't handle it can shift his/her major to many other subjects, including the social sciences and humanities. A Caltech student might decide to transfer to a less science-focused school. It would be good to know how many Caltech "drop-outs" successfully complete their bachelor's degrees somewhere else.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    I don't think I'd worry about graduation or retention rates for Cal Tech. They are pretty good. 98% of students come back after their first year. 88.5% graduate by the six year mark (which is the one more often used now). That's not at all bad. Keep in mind the average six year graduation rate at US colleges is around 53%.


    Last edited by passthepotatoes; 03/24/11 05:51 AM.
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    You may find this article interesting.

    http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/12/why_caltech_is_in_a_class_by_i.html

    Minding the Campus
    December 9, 2010
    Why Caltech Is in a Class by Itself
    By Russell K. Nieli

    ...

    Of the top two dozen or so elite universities in America only one has
    managed both to avoid the craziness of the post-60s intellectual fads,
    and to establish something pretty close to a pure meritocracy --
    California Institute of Technology, which has not received the general
    recognition among academics that it clearly deserves.

    The statistics on Caltech's students and faculty are simply
    spellbinding. An entering Caltech freshman last year who received a
    770 on the math SAT would be exceeded in this area by three-quarters
    of his fellow entering freshmen. Many Caltech freshmen got a perfect
    800 on their math SAT, while a near-perfect 1560 combination score
    placed an incoming freshmen at only the 75th percentile of his
    entering classmates. A combined SAT score of 1470 (the 99th percentile
    by national standards) placed an entering Caltech freshman at only the
    25th percentile among his fellow students. (At Harvard and Princeton,
    by contrast, the 25th percentile is reached by a score of only 1380).
    All recent Caltech undergraduates have scored 700 or above on the math
    SAT, and far from being a bunch of inarticulate science and math
    geeks, the vast majority have scored over 700 on the English verbal
    SAT as well. Most Caltech matriculants have also taken numerous
    Advanced Placement courses in high school, and attained perfect scores
    on their AP exams. In short, Caltech is interested in enrolling only
    the academically most accomplished and advanced students, who have a
    genuine passion for the STEM subjects (science, technology,
    engineering, mathematics), and virtually all of its entering students
    have achieved at the 98th or 99th percentile in terms of their scores
    on competitive national exams.

    What this means is that at Caltech, there are no dumb jocks, dumb
    legacies, or dumb affirmative action students. It is clear from its
    published statistics that the non-academic criteria that preoccupy
    admissions committees at all other elite universities count for little
    at this beacon of pure meritocracy. Perhaps the most striking
    difference from all other elite universities -- including institutions
    like MIT and the University of Chicago which forgo athletic
    recruitment -- is Caltech's complete indifference to racial balancing.
    In a state and a region of the country with the largest Hispanic
    population, Caltech's entering freshmen class in 2008 was less than 6
    percent Hispanic (13 out of 236). The unwillingness to lower standards
    for a larger black representation is even more striking -- less than 1
    percent (2/236) of Caltech's 2008 entering freshmen were listed as
    "non-Hispanic black". This "underrepresentation" of blacks and
    Hispanics, of course, was more than made up for by the huge
    "overrepresentation" of Asians. Only 4 percent of the U.S. population,
    Asians made up a whopping 40 percent of the incoming freshmen class in
    2008, a slightly larger proportion than the 39 percent figure for
    whites. Applicants to Caltech are clearly seen as representing only
    themselves and their own individual merit and achievement, not their
    race or their ethnic group. As a professor at Caltech who has taught
    there for many years explained to me in an email, "We try, like our
    competitors, very, very hard to find, recruit, and nurture
    underrepresented minorities but we won't bend our standards."

    ...


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    Originally Posted by Clark
    amylou, my son is very interested in continuing his research. If he chooses Caltech, do you think he could start as soon as he gets there? Some have suggested that he wait, but he really wants to do more research ASAP. Thoughts?

    I think meaningful research opportunities for undergraduates is a great strength of Caltech. I am just guessing why people you spoke to suggest waiting rather starting as soon as he gets there: to take time to gauge coursework demands? to visit with multiple professors in multiple disciplines to find the perfect research match?

    It wouldn't be good to put a lot of effort and energy into an exciting research project, and then fail courses at the end of the quarter. I think the curriculum has changed some since I was there back in the dark ages (when the attrition rate *was* nearly 30% - I am glad to hear they fixed that), but back then, I would say I knew of just a handful of students who didn't find the first year course load demanding/stressful, despite their spectacular pre-college achievements. Caltech is on a quarter system, so in the grand scheme of things, waiting until second quarter to start research could be wise for this reason.

    But I would not make sweeping generalizations - you and your son know best his academic capabilities, what will be inspiring to him, and how well equipped he is to manage multiple demands. It could be that a research experience would provide the spark to motivate his coursework achievement. Can you visit some time this spring/summer and scope out research opportunities? In some cases, research groups may have a lot of flexibility in dynamically adjusting research expectations as needed over the ebb and flow of the academic year.

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    Hi Clark,

    My younger daughter�s major is ORFI (Operational Research and Finical Engineering), one of departments in Princeton engineering school. So far so good, I have not seen any sign that she is going to switch to something else.

    One thing that is a bit special about your son is his age. Both my daughters entered colleges at age 16 (my older one is at Harvard). But they are a bit older than your son and they are girls which is less an issue socially. Despite their age, I have not seen any problem with their ability interacting with people older than they are. Both had a lot of practice in middle and high school. You should take your son�s age and school�s social environment into account with college decision (CalTech has fewer girls :-)).

    I would also watch out for those study abroad and foreign travel programs these schools may offer. It may be too early for your son to do those things at age 16 or 17. My older one traveled to Spain and Portugal for 2 weeks alone in Freshman winter break. Living in hostels and changing cities every two days. I did not have much contact with her through that time except occasional e-mails. Then she went on to an summer internship in Russia on Harvard's grant. She studied Russian and did some works for Russian Railway for 2 months. What we did not know at that time was that she traveled on trans-Siberian train alone from Moscow to Beijing which took a week. She disappeared into Mongolian wildness for several days with a couple European kids whom she met on the train. Don't get me wrong. I am proud of what she had done, but things could go bad easily.


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