I know I have been in the minority in my obsession about future options for our children as the "new normal" takes over. I had lunch with my Chinese friend yesterday. Her youngest son tested with the SBV with and IQ of 160 -- he didn't get into Hunter, what we first have in common.

She goes back to Beijing in the summers to see her family and get her sons back into speaking Mandarin etc. She says there is this program that is on constantly on all the channels, sort of America's got talent. But it is all children and they compete in their age range and she says it makes her children look so mediocre she is afraid of what kind of competitive landscape it will be for her sons as they apply for colleges -- because they will be applying here but against all those Chinese students coming from China.

I just thought it interesting. I know that often that I am in the minority in worrying about options for DD5 when she gets older and I find the majority here think that if they are smart, they will find a way. But I think the current economic climate will show us an example. There are a lot of unemployed really smart people trying to find a way.

Ren

The game show is highly ritualized and contestants prepare for it. A very small group of highly motivated contestants compete. If you were to take an untutored chess player to a tournament, they would feel the same way.

If you spend some time on the big future site, you will see that the majority of inventions that will change the world come from the US. If you did more deeply into the background of the inventors you will see they pursued their ideas for their own sake.

http://nextbigfuture.com/

China will need one or two more generations to undo the cultural aversion to the study of ideas for their own sake. It is deeply ingrained into the culture from thousands of years of despotism. The history of ideas in the West as compared to China is an interesting field of study. Logic was never invented by the Chinese and it has crippled the intellctual disciplines as a result. If you look at all that rests on Logic in the West, there is a huge gap.

A lot of manufacturing is coming back to the US from China. This is just one story.

http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/farouk-systems-inc-brings-manufacturing-us

"As it turns out, Farouk Systems� move to the U.S. isn�t an isolated case. Many companies are bringing manufacturing back to North America, primarily because the bulk of their customer base in here. Cost increases in materials and transportation, counterfeiting problems, and logistics problems in the supply chain have caused many manufacturers to relocate production either to the U.S., Canada, or Mexico.

A 2009 study by Archstone Consulting LLC, cites 10 �macro forces� that are currently undermining the offshoring trend, with nearly 90% of manufacturers reporting that they are considering or have already begun rebalancing their manufacturing and supply strategy due to cost increases in offshoring: 40% have reported an increase in aggregate cost of 25% or more; 90% expect further increases of 10% or more, said Archstone�s study."


I work with JVs' principals that do or have done business with PRC firms and the quality of the work has declined over time and they have switched to a new vendors not based in the PRC, some of which are here. I have seen business stolen by PRC firms who reverse engineered designs, but when the systems failed while in the field, the end users switched back to US products.

The CPC thinks it can steal the economic success of the West without all the other things that come with it. This is creating a huge level of stress in both the US and the PRC as the US uses China as a piggy bank to finance consumption and China sees it as a way to build an economy. It is very unhealthy and cannot continue for much longer.

Wow! I have never before heard of a child getting a 160 on the SB V. That's a fantastic score. I can't imagine him not getting in due to his IQ- ti couldn't be any higher on that scale! It must have been something else that caused him to be rejected.

Hi Austin,

You must be a little young. In the middle 80s, I was heading up the automobile group for a major investment bank. There was a time that everything you wrote about could have been said about the Japanese. When I was a kid, if it was Made in Japan it was junk. Amazing what was done in two decades. And what was even more remarkable was what Korea did in one decade with quality.

You sited some examples and I have heard them too but they are isolated, otherwise the trade deficit wouldn't be so f---ing big. The math tells all and little anecdotes don't add up to anything on world trade. The US imports a great deal from China and it grows. And when they wanted planes from Boeing, which is our largest exporter, they made them build them there. And Boeing agreed.

So you can pretend that your universe is real but I will bet you that your reality will burst within two years.

Ren

You mean all the moaning about Japan, Inc? Yeah, I recall the scaremongering. I seem to recall Al Gore heading that up. Seems like he moved on to another Big Scare that is flopping, too.

Where is Japan, today, after the Lost Decade? Why would a nation set its interest rates at 0% for ten years if it was so successful?

And what about the Hikikomori - many of whom are PG and AS? Japan has kicked its most unique people to the curb. Is that smart? This is a huge and lost opportunity for Japan (and the world) that can never be recovered.

Furthermore, the Japanese auto manufacturers understood the trajectory of their costs and they in-shored the assembly and much of the parts processes to the US. Why would it not be smart for US firms to do the same thing?

The only advantage China has is labor costs and the fact that they way underestimate future costs. This, too, will change, as it did for Japan and as it has for Korea and in Taiwan.

I never said the Chinese stuff was junk. They make some great stuff. But intellectual theft is rampant. They also undercut price and then later realize they made a mistake as they have to provide support and maintenance. They either then raise the price to cover costs or cut corners. If they do the latter, then staff leave and the product suffers.

The US and others talked China into something they will come to regret - being the sweatshop of the world. They have huge hidden lifecyle costs that are coming due and will come due as time goes along. And as a result the cost advantage will dwindle while the other cost drivers such as flexibility, transportation, coordination - stay fixed or become more important. And emerging nations in Africa will have lower costs in terms of labor and distance to market, andmore Western values, so plants can be moved or built anew.

I'm not impressed. They should have driven a harder bargain and grew more slowly.

Let's see what happens to China's emerging asset and commodity bubble in the next six months. And the soon to be worthless US dollars they have stockpiled.

I think the Chinese have been snookered.

You make some good points. The advantage of China, not to say they won't burst, is that they are managed like some big corporate entity. And those useless US dollars --- doesn't that mean serious inflation here?

When you look at medical and dental schools here, they are filled with students from India and will get more and more China.

That is my argument. China is making huge investments in their young. Training them in languages, math, science. Yes, Mao killed off the intelligensia and destroyed the universities and they have to rebuild. But they are doing that.

My point was about all these kids, kids that are very hungry to work hard and if the combined population of India and China are 10X the population here and you have gifted kids everywhere, and they come here for college, the options get smaller and smaller for kids here.

The story of Japan and China are very different. As the story of India and China. India isn't really investing in infrastructure. China is learning quickly. And they have bought up a lot of Congo. So although they may have useless US dollar denominated bonds, they own a lot of commodities to hedge.

Anyway, DD5 is taking Mandarin now. She likes the idea that China may be the world power when she grows up and she needs to learn so she can talk to them. And she loves the class.

On another topic. I am finding the horizontal diversification working. After finding out that the Special Music School is actually delayed on the curriculum and math is a year behing, but by 5th grade, the kids can pass the 8th grade regents, it makes me rethink the gifted curriculum idea.

Ren

Dottie-

Is it easier to score very high on that version of the test- similar to the WPPSI? 160 is still the ceiling, right? I couldn't find that detail on the link you posted.

I�m going to side step the whole China/Japan discussion (since I�m rather ignorant there! ) and just say that I�ve seen first hand how one ivy-league institute decides which students are accepted. First they sort the applications into a few categories: Americans, Chinese, the rest of the world (their might have beens some sub-categories there but they were pretty much lumped together). Then they evaluate them against the others in their indivdual category. So, yes, if her sons were applyin from China it would make is harder due to high test scores there.

I guess, I�d suggest trying to find activities for her sons that are atypical of Chinese students. Maybe some internships? Study abroad? Emphasize native English speaking skills, etc...

It is not clear to me whether the Chinese family in the original post are US citizen or green card holders. If they are, they should not worry much about the competition from foreign students from China or elsewhere. Foreign students are put into separate category.

Even the family came here on work or student visa, their kids still have better chances to get into top schools than those applying from outside. The students from China still have the language barrier to overcome. It is getting better now, but most of them can barely speak or write (although the reading and analyzing grammar are much better). I was one of them 20 years ago as a graduate student. It was hard. I won't be able to survive in under-graduate where reading and writing are much more important.

First, the parents of this family are visa holders. Do not not the status of the children.

Secondly, DH is very involved with fundraiising with Harvard and we discuss how it is going with competition for spaces.

Chinese is chinese, for admissions. It is very hard to get in if you are Chinese because there are so many with perfect scores, from here, from there. You can get most easily if you are a Pacific Islander.

The current education situation, that I understand, in China is that they are heavily learning languages and they pride themselves that when the government place someone in Rio, they speak perfect Portugese, if placed in Paris, perfect French. I read an article about this. I read that English was pushed even at the preschool level so they are raised bilingual, at least bilingual.

Getting into top colleges is hard, and will always be hard. But it is not impossible to get into Harvard as a Chinese-American. My older daughter get in this year. She did have near perfect score and a host of other things. Her main competitions are not those from China. This year, Harvard admitted a grand total of 5 students (under-graduate) from mainland China.

Just my opinion, but: I'm not convinced that being concerned about college admissions is productive now, at least not for me. My kids are all very young, and the admissions process could be very different when my kids (aged 5 - 9) are ready to apply to college.

We're going to encourage DS9 to take a couple of years between high school and serious college. He's going to graduate two years early and we'll encourage him to explore different subjects at one of the local community colleges, get a part-time job, enroll in internship programs, take up a serious hobby...whatever strikes his fancy for the most part. Well. We probably wouldn't be happy with "Think I'll surf the web 'til I'm 18."

The idea behind all this is to give him a huge gift of time to explore the world and his interests when he won't have many other responsibilities. If it works out, DS7 and DD5 will hopefully have exploring time as well.

Val

Right on, Val!

We couldn't afford Harvard even if our kids were accepted. From my own experience and my husband's, I know that where you go for your undergraduate degree is less important than where you go for your graduate or professional degree.

Many people have not even heard of the small liberal arts college where I went as an undergrad.

Val,

Totally respect your view but that is also your plan. You are thinking about his options and what you could direct him towards, and he is 9. That is kind of what I am thinking, but my thinking is different. But at least my thinking is paying off right now. Thinking negatively makes a lot of money these days in the markets. Last fall, it was like printing money.

And that is my other "plan". I will teach DD to trade when she gets to about 12.

Ren

My dd9 has her whole future planned ahead (all by herself, mind you!!).

She will graduate from middle school 1-2 years younger due to grade skips. Plans to attend Phillips Exeter for high school and do dual enrollment at Harvard/MIT as both a Medical doctor and engineer (at the same time!!) and on full scholarship too. She used to be set on Harvard, but her robotics coach is a MIT graduate and he told her about dual enrollment, so now that is her new plan.

It has never crossed her mind that she might not get in any of these schools....Oh, and she plans to spend a year in France between High School and College. I don't think this kid is lacking in self-confidence!

Let me make something clear, I am not a pushy mother, she was born this way.

I sort of understand where u are coming from. Where my home country is, gifted programs are provided in public schools for kids who are selected when they are in grade 3 (9yo). In recent years, the local kids face competition from increasing students from China(one or 2 years older in the same grade since they are need time to catch up on English). There are parents who are unhappy that limited spaces are "possibly" being taken by these bright, extremely hardworking and older Chinese kids.

My "plan" for my kids are quite similar to Val. At this moment, I am going to encourage and support them to follow their interests. I would also like to keep their enthusiasm and passion in life and not get drawn into the herd mentality. The last thing I want to is to be sucked into the "Havard Fallacy". No offence. JMO. *wink*

I think it comes down to how you define success - for some it's prestige on the socio-economic ladder, for others it might be making a difference in the world, facing personal challenges, pursuing an artistic endeavour, raising a family well.

The people who have "stuff" that I would like to have, and the people I feel priveledged to know, who I admire for their character and their achievements, are generally quite different.

Having both would be good of course.

Well, I think what I was trying to say was that the idea is to give my kids freedom to choose. If one or more wants to go straight to a four-year college, DH and I wouldn't hold them back. We might not be enthusiastic about letting a 16-year-old live on the other side the country in a dormitory full of 18-23-year-olds, but that's a different story. I expect that this particular decision would depend a whole lot on the maturity level of each kid. Plus, there are lots of great colleges and universities where we live.

Ultimately, for me/us, the decision about which college to attend has to be the child's. We're trying to teach our kids to make their own decisions, and college choice fits into that category. In college, I knew people who'd been handed a list of approved colleges when they were 16/17 or who entered professions based on parental expectations. Many of them weren't happy or were less independent than might have been optimal (or both). I think that these seeing their experiences helped helped me form my approach to parenting.

I guess this is why I doubt I'll ever be concerned with admissions to an Ivy League school: it's really my son's or daughter's thing to worry about. Not that I won't be happy or sad at the outcome and be rooting for the kid to get into his/her first choice. But I believe that I need to back away to a certain degree.

Just my 2c! YMMV, etc. etc.!

Val

I do understand about choices and knowing DD5, who makes Hilliary Clinton look like a follower, will make her own decisions when that time comes. Though she does have considerations that are real life. She has a Canadian citizenship, which I got right after she was born and she will have to spend some time there and it could be undergrad or graduate, who knows. But that may be a strong option for practical reasons.

Her first present from her father was a cap from Harvard. She was still in the womb. She went to the first Harvard/yale game before she was 2 months old. The propaganda is strong. Not for Ivy league. Just Harvard. Yale is a four letter word in our house.

As for being born that way, when everyone was playing house, I played female executive living in a penthouse in NYC -- as a kid in a small midwestern city in Canada -- where did that come from.

We find our path. And DD will sure take hers, though with "strong" guidance from me..;)

No offense, but Ren you sound like you are heavily invested in your daughter's future.

Isn't this a lot of pressure for a child and for you as well? Is it really that important if she goes to Harvard?

You had your heart set on Hunter last year. It was something you really wanted for her. She wasn't accepted in Hunter and you got over it.

I worry what math my son will study next year and if he has enough time to play, but I sure don't worry what college he will attend. He is only 7 after all. All I want for him right now is to be happy, challenged at school, and learn new things.

Just my 2 cents

Umm, Yale is a four letter word in my house too. Y_A_L_E!

Interesting thread about education and child's future. Although I have no idea about the whole China debate thing. Not my area of expertise.

Parenting is something that I am more knowledgeable about (although no expert). I think if children have guidance and appropriate modeling and encouragement that they will choose what is right for them and what makes them happy...which may or may not make their parents happy. Obviously parents can give their feedback...but can't control everything about their future even though sometimes it would be nice. I realize that every parents goal is not for their children to be happy and some have the goal of success...but the two don't always fit together and for me the happiness is way more important than success. We all know that sometimes children want to go in the complete opposite direction that their parents want them to just because it is the complete opposite direction and they feel resentment from being pushed. I do worry about school and think about the future of my children, but it is really up to DS and what he wants for himself. I will provide opportunities and try to keep up with his insatiable desire to learn the best I can. I can tell you countless stories (and you all can too probably) of children that went to school because they were supposed to and got degrees that they were supposed to and do nothing with it and hate their lives. I don't want that for my children. I personally can't imagine that my DS would ever be happy doing something that didn't involve either math or science...but if he was and it made him happy to do something else for a career I would be all for it. I have already made my choices in life and am quite happy. As he grows up it will be time for him to make his (sniff sniff).

Great perspective on kids and parenting shellymos! I have had to continue to learn this every year for my 16 yrs of being a parent. I consider myself lucky to have children from whom I can learn so much!

As for the China discussion, I teach ESL at a University, and yes, China and most other developed countries in the world require English from a relatively young age, but they don't leave their countries fluent in English. Almost all need a lot more study in an English Speaking Country before they can head to university here, and the parents are the ones who pay for it. At Harvard you may be seeing the very best, the government scholarships, etc., but remember how many people the best are being chosen from! If we judge Americans and the American education system by our Rhodes Scholars, or even by University Students who actually study abroad in a 2nd language, we look pretty amazing!

Also, as many have pointed out here, you have to remember culture. Education is simply more valued in China than it is here. However, critical thinking skills are not emphasized in that educational system. Everything has a trade off. We all operate from a value system, whether we are aware of it or not, and lucky for us, sometimes our kids are the ones who force us to look at what we really believe.

For those who are interested in "contrasting and comparing" the education system of USA and China, I would suggest a documentary film called "Two Million Minutes".

http://www.2mminutes.com/

My DD wrote a review about the film a couple of years ago (published). She in general agreed with the main point of the movie that American need to step up the game in Math and Science, but she is also very suspicious about the simplistic approach used by the film to do the comparison. I post the article here, hopefully, it adds a bit to the discussion.

====================================================

Two Million Minutes: Myth or Reality?

By Yiren L

A documentary film making the rounds among educators and policy makers, Two Million Minutes is an ambitious examination of the differences between six high school students in India, China, and the United States, interspersed with commentary from leading government and educational experts. The issue it addresses � the declining quality of American public education � is nothing new. But Two Million Minutes is one of the first to look beyond the classroom into the personal philosophies of teenagers and their parents.

Titled for the approximate amount of time spent in high school, Two Million Minutes follows the lives of Brittany Brechbuhl and Neil Ahrendt from Carmel, Indiana, Apoorva Uppala and Rohit Sridharan from Bangalore, India, and Xiaoyuan Hu and Ruizhang Jin from Shanghai, China. All six are successful students, in that they do well in school, are socially normal, and stay out of trouble. But the film soon makes evident that their perspectives on academics and the future are vastly different. Ruizhang Jin, an amateur programmer and math whiz, says that he does not set goals to avoid disappointment. Meanwhile, Brittany strives for �balance� in her life (future sorority sister and pre-med), and a line flashes across the screen noting that one area that American students surpass their peers is in self-confidence.

The film succeeds in presenting not only the schooling, but the lives of the subjects. Parents of Apoorva and Rohit are engineers, who have pushed them towards engineering, and viewed other activities as distractions. Yet even as Americans watch in awe of India�s rise, Rohit�s father complains that the motivation of the younger generation towards academics lags behind that of their parents. Neil�s mother, however, is satisfied with his multitude of extracurriculars, his grades, and his full ride at Perdue. Her son is encouraged to pursue a life and career that he enjoys, and in a manner he himself deems fit. Xiaoyuan and Ruizhang choose their own fields of interest, but they must fight the exam-oriented gauntlet that is Chinese K-12 education. For Apoorva and Rohit, though, there are no other options.

Does Neil�s mother�s complacency stifle his potential? Or are the Indians and Chinese stifling creativity? These are insightful questions which the documentary raises.

But Two Million Minutes also leaves gaping holes in reasoning and comparison. How can millions of high school students be characterized by two? Over 30% of Indians are illiterate. 40% of students in China don�t graduate. And if there must be judgment by proxy, at least the representation should be consistent. The two Chinese students are now attending Beijing University and Tsinghua University, respectively, premier institutions in China and home only to a select few. As for the Indian students, they belong to a highly privileged class. Living in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of India, the children of well-educated, professional parents, they are seemingly unhindered by problems of tuition, textbooks, and electricity that plague so many of their classmates. Brittany�s 3.94 GPA and Neil�s National Merit Scholarship are undoubtedly admirable, but a deeper look at the very best students in America will reveal a dedication and work ethic which widely contrasts with theirs. Not every Chinese student wins medals at International math competitions, just as not every American student ignores homework and watches Grey�s Anatomy while studying.

Even putting inaccurate representation aside, Two Million Minutes suffers because its single-minded focus on math and science (particularly engineering), sells short the humanities, the social sciences, and the arts. Sure, Xiaoyuan Hu plays the violin and studies ballet, but her view of music as a �back-up plan� for college belies true love and enthusiasm. Likewise, Rohit Sridharan knows exactly where he is going with his life (Indian Institute of Technology or IIT, then a steady, financially rewarding job in physics) but at times, he seems beleaguered, resigned, and just a little bit resentful.

The message that executive producer, Harvard-educated Robert Compton, attempts to send is that in increasingly globalized economy, American needs to step up its game and invest more money and energy in math and science. The message itself is hardly earth-shattering. But Two Million Minutes personalizes what has been a statistical issue and turns concept into reality. Its analysis of attitude and psyche is its contribution towards the ongoing debate. Because ultimately, when we strive to reform education in America, we are looking to reform more than texts, labs, and curriculum; we are looking to reform an outlook on life.

I did not grow up in China, but I lived close enough to China that I can shed some light in their educational system.

Kids start competing with each other since kindergarten. Kindergarten requires entrance exam. If you get into a good kindergarten, you will be "settled" for a while (until 6th grade in my case). Parents teach their kids very early, so that they will get in good schools. Kids go to schools (academic based play groups) before they are 2 years old. Throughout their education, there are public exams to shuffle the students and move them to different school according to their test results. These public exams put a lot of pressure on students and these exams make you truly feel like "life or death". Some kids kill themselves because they did not make it to the best schools.

Some people call their educational method "stuffing duck", meaning you are not required to understand, but just learn it, memorize it and do not forget. Schools use very little manipulatives. Students learn everything from books with explanation from teachers. Then they practice, practice and practice.

Teachers are very strict. They are not your friend and would not behave like one. Teachers here in US are friendly. They joke around with you. They also use different ways to make learning fun. This won't happen where I grew up.

Someone here said Chinese do not question anything. It is true because if you question something or someone, you would be labeled a trouble maker. Also , you are taught not to question throughout your education. "Your teacher is always right," my parents always tell me. "Not to question" is part of the culture.

Scholarships are for scholars, meaning if you get enough A's in your public exams, you will get it. I haven't heard of any scholarship for sport achievements.

Schools split into science, art and business track in 10th grade. You are required to make a decision what you want to be in the future. Calculus starts in the 10th grade in science track. By 11th grade, you have learned an equivalent to the first year of calculus in college. There is a big public exam at the end of 11th grade. I remember I had to stay up late and work very hard to pass the exam.

This is my experience growing up. In my personal opinion, I don't think the education in China is superior to the education here. There are certainly some good things about that system that we can learn from, but I believe students here know how to think, reason and question, and that's what make American the way we are.

I read two books a while back, thought they were excellent but I'm not sure whether they are outdates. The books are called "The Learning Gap" and "The Teaching Gap". Both focus on differences in math education between the US and China, Japan and Germany. It was quite sobering reading.

I think everyone made very good points. But, since I am older, and grew up in a time when parents -- parents on this continent didn't talk about their children "being happy" when they grew up. They were suppose to study, go to college and get a good job. Preferably professional and everyone I grew up with did that. And they are happy.

After the hippy movement, then the whole thing about being happy came about.

And I respect the review on the Two Million Minutes movie but the whole thing on China is taken out of context. I know Austin thinks Americans (or do you mean white Americans Austin) have the corner in the market on creativity. Funny how those Chinese figured out how to used corn cobs to feed the cattle. What were they thinking, thinking of something so easily and simple before the Americans?

For anyone who wants a full view, may I suggest a book: Four Swans. A unique view of Life before and after Mao. I think that the recovery China has made since Mao almost destroyed it. How long would it take the US to recover from such crazy man in charge? He makes Bush look like a gift from the Gods.

After that, China is doing amaziningly well and can only increase its ability to do so because they are hungry. Hungry to learn, to succeed and to be able to play and be happy.

Ren

Made a mistake, Wild Swans is the name of the book not Four Swans.

Ren

Well, Ren, I'm older than you and I was raised being told that mans purpose was to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. That does not exclude being well-educated, for many of the first Universities in the United States were founded by religious groups. We are also to serve others, as exhibited by the many hospitals founded by religious groups.

I'd also be shocked if the Chinese taught the Americans anything about feeding corn to cattle. Corn, aka Maize, is native to the Americas. Bos Taurus came over with the early immigrants, and I would think they started raiding the Native's corn fields as soon as they got a taste of the corn. It's a cow's natural inclination to eat the ear grain and cob together. A quick search of the net indicates maize was not introduced to China until at least 50 years after European immigrants were comming to the Americas.

BTW, the shot you took toward Austin, "I know Austin thinks Americans (or do you mean white Americans Austin) have the corner in the market on creativity." was uncalled for. It sounded like a backhanded way of saying he is racist. Austin sticks up for Americans, and I have never seen him separate them by color.

The comments made that Americans were the leaders in invention and creativity was similar to comments years ago about the limits of Asians. I do think there are differences in culture, we wouldn't have the old joke about European heaven and hell. I have been in 30 automobile assembly plants around the world and I know there are cultural differences in workers.

Chinese don't feed the ear grain and the cob. Just the cob. They can't afford to give them both, as they need the grain.

That was the point.

Ren

And yes, it was probably a low blow but I think it typical of "racist" type of thinker when they distort the facts. From Industry Week:

Geographical Shifts

Various factors -- including rising transportation costs, quality issues and currency fluctuations -- have manufacturers rethinking where they source and produce products and components. An AMR Research Inc. survey conducted in late May asked 113 executives about their supply chain plans over the next year. Of those surveyed, 64% come from companies with more than $5 billion in revenue. The rest reported revenues less than $5 billion.

Change in Sourcing Activities for the Next 12 Months

Within the United States
Increase Sourcing -- 23%
Decrease Sourcing -- 25%
No Change -- 52%

Near Shore
Increase Sourcing -- 30%
Decrease Sourcing -- 7%
No Change -- 63%

You have not shown that Austin distorted any facts, using this post. Outsourcing products or service is only a sign that foreign workers, with a lower standard of living, are able to produce products or provide service cheaper than Americans. It has nothing to do with creativeness, unless you decide the American businesses are being creative on how to increase their bottom line.

Besides, I've seen plenty of distortion of facts to support one's position and never attributed it to racist thinking.

There is extremely little food value in the cob, even for a ruminant. In the USA there are other uses for a corn cob, as a polishing abrasive for one. With the increased use of fiber to produce methynol, some combines have been converted to gather the fodder, including the cob, after the grain is stripped from the cob. Americans hold those patents. And I couldn't tell you what race they are.

Maybe it is just me but I am failing to see the correlation between the cheap shot and the stats.

Oh, dear.

I think I prefer the name-calling to be a little more subtle -- back-handed, even. Easier to pretend it didn't happen... or to give the writer the benefit of the doubt, whether deserved or not.

Umm. What's going on here? This conversation is becoming increasingly...unlike this board.

The thing that makes this board so special (for me at least) is the extremely high level of courtesy and respect in the posts. The high level of thoughtfulness that goes into the posts keeps me coming back. I'm also very fond of the general lack of flaming that we see here.

Val

I agree Val and I apologize. I went too far. It was not my intention to go in that direction.

I am not posting to the thread anymore.

Ren

Chenchuan,
I think your daughter's review got a little lost in the discussion here. I think her opinion on this might count for a little more the some of the ramblings of the rest of us. Tell her I enjoyed reading it very much and feel that it was very well written. I teach cross-cultural communication and would like to use the review in a class. Where was it published?

Behave, kids.