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    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Her first present from her father was a cap from Harvard. She was still in the womb. She went to the first Harvard/yale game before she was 2 months old. The propaganda is strong. Not for Ivy league. Just Harvard. Yale is a four letter word in our house.

    No offense, but Ren you sound like you are heavily invested in your daughter's future.

    Isn't this a lot of pressure for a child and for you as well? Is it really that important if she goes to Harvard?

    You had your heart set on Hunter last year. It was something you really wanted for her. She wasn't accepted in Hunter and you got over it.

    I worry what math my son will study next year and if he has enough time to play, but I sure don't worry what college he will attend. He is only 7 after all. All I want for him right now is to be happy, challenged at school, and learn new things.

    Just my 2 cents


    LMom
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    Umm, Yale is a four letter word in my house too. Y_A_L_E!

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    Interesting thread about education and child's future. Although I have no idea about the whole China debate thing. Not my area of expertise.

    Parenting is something that I am more knowledgeable about (although no expert). I think if children have guidance and appropriate modeling and encouragement that they will choose what is right for them and what makes them happy...which may or may not make their parents happy. Obviously parents can give their feedback...but can't control everything about their future even though sometimes it would be nice. I realize that every parents goal is not for their children to be happy and some have the goal of success...but the two don't always fit together and for me the happiness is way more important than success. We all know that sometimes children want to go in the complete opposite direction that their parents want them to just because it is the complete opposite direction and they feel resentment from being pushed. I do worry about school and think about the future of my children, but it is really up to DS and what he wants for himself. I will provide opportunities and try to keep up with his insatiable desire to learn the best I can. I can tell you countless stories (and you all can too probably) of children that went to school because they were supposed to and got degrees that they were supposed to and do nothing with it and hate their lives. I don't want that for my children. I personally can't imagine that my DS would ever be happy doing something that didn't involve either math or science...but if he was and it made him happy to do something else for a career I would be all for it. I have already made my choices in life and am quite happy. As he grows up it will be time for him to make his (sniff sniff).

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    Great perspective on kids and parenting shellymos! I have had to continue to learn this every year for my 16 yrs of being a parent. I consider myself lucky to have children from whom I can learn so much!

    As for the China discussion, I teach ESL at a University, and yes, China and most other developed countries in the world require English from a relatively young age, but they don't leave their countries fluent in English. Almost all need a lot more study in an English Speaking Country before they can head to university here, and the parents are the ones who pay for it. At Harvard you may be seeing the very best, the government scholarships, etc., but remember how many people the best are being chosen from! If we judge Americans and the American education system by our Rhodes Scholars, or even by University Students who actually study abroad in a 2nd language, we look pretty amazing!

    Also, as many have pointed out here, you have to remember culture. Education is simply more valued in China than it is here. However, critical thinking skills are not emphasized in that educational system. Everything has a trade off. We all operate from a value system, whether we are aware of it or not, and lucky for us, sometimes our kids are the ones who force us to look at what we really believe.


    Benny
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    For those who are interested in "contrasting and comparing" the education system of USA and China, I would suggest a documentary film called "Two Million Minutes".

    http://www.2mminutes.com/

    My DD wrote a review about the film a couple of years ago (published). She in general agreed with the main point of the movie that American need to step up the game in Math and Science, but she is also very suspicious about the simplistic approach used by the film to do the comparison. I post the article here, hopefully, it adds a bit to the discussion.

    ====================================================

    Two Million Minutes: Myth or Reality?

    By Yiren L

    A documentary film making the rounds among educators and policy makers, Two Million Minutes is an ambitious examination of the differences between six high school students in India, China, and the United States, interspersed with commentary from leading government and educational experts. The issue it addresses � the declining quality of American public education � is nothing new. But Two Million Minutes is one of the first to look beyond the classroom into the personal philosophies of teenagers and their parents.

    Titled for the approximate amount of time spent in high school, Two Million Minutes follows the lives of Brittany Brechbuhl and Neil Ahrendt from Carmel, Indiana, Apoorva Uppala and Rohit Sridharan from Bangalore, India, and Xiaoyuan Hu and Ruizhang Jin from Shanghai, China. All six are successful students, in that they do well in school, are socially normal, and stay out of trouble. But the film soon makes evident that their perspectives on academics and the future are vastly different. Ruizhang Jin, an amateur programmer and math whiz, says that he does not set goals to avoid disappointment. Meanwhile, Brittany strives for �balance� in her life (future sorority sister and pre-med), and a line flashes across the screen noting that one area that American students surpass their peers is in self-confidence.

    The film succeeds in presenting not only the schooling, but the lives of the subjects. Parents of Apoorva and Rohit are engineers, who have pushed them towards engineering, and viewed other activities as distractions. Yet even as Americans watch in awe of India�s rise, Rohit�s father complains that the motivation of the younger generation towards academics lags behind that of their parents. Neil�s mother, however, is satisfied with his multitude of extracurriculars, his grades, and his full ride at Perdue. Her son is encouraged to pursue a life and career that he enjoys, and in a manner he himself deems fit. Xiaoyuan and Ruizhang choose their own fields of interest, but they must fight the exam-oriented gauntlet that is Chinese K-12 education. For Apoorva and Rohit, though, there are no other options.

    Does Neil�s mother�s complacency stifle his potential? Or are the Indians and Chinese stifling creativity? These are insightful questions which the documentary raises.

    But Two Million Minutes also leaves gaping holes in reasoning and comparison. How can millions of high school students be characterized by two? Over 30% of Indians are illiterate. 40% of students in China don�t graduate. And if there must be judgment by proxy, at least the representation should be consistent. The two Chinese students are now attending Beijing University and Tsinghua University, respectively, premier institutions in China and home only to a select few. As for the Indian students, they belong to a highly privileged class. Living in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of India, the children of well-educated, professional parents, they are seemingly unhindered by problems of tuition, textbooks, and electricity that plague so many of their classmates. Brittany�s 3.94 GPA and Neil�s National Merit Scholarship are undoubtedly admirable, but a deeper look at the very best students in America will reveal a dedication and work ethic which widely contrasts with theirs. Not every Chinese student wins medals at International math competitions, just as not every American student ignores homework and watches Grey�s Anatomy while studying.

    Even putting inaccurate representation aside, Two Million Minutes suffers because its single-minded focus on math and science (particularly engineering), sells short the humanities, the social sciences, and the arts. Sure, Xiaoyuan Hu plays the violin and studies ballet, but her view of music as a �back-up plan� for college belies true love and enthusiasm. Likewise, Rohit Sridharan knows exactly where he is going with his life (Indian Institute of Technology or IIT, then a steady, financially rewarding job in physics) but at times, he seems beleaguered, resigned, and just a little bit resentful.

    The message that executive producer, Harvard-educated Robert Compton, attempts to send is that in increasingly globalized economy, American needs to step up its game and invest more money and energy in math and science. The message itself is hardly earth-shattering. But Two Million Minutes personalizes what has been a statistical issue and turns concept into reality. Its analysis of attitude and psyche is its contribution towards the ongoing debate. Because ultimately, when we strive to reform education in America, we are looking to reform more than texts, labs, and curriculum; we are looking to reform an outlook on life.


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    I did not grow up in China, but I lived close enough to China that I can shed some light in their educational system.

    Kids start competing with each other since kindergarten. Kindergarten requires entrance exam. If you get into a good kindergarten, you will be "settled" for a while (until 6th grade in my case). Parents teach their kids very early, so that they will get in good schools. Kids go to schools (academic based play groups) before they are 2 years old. Throughout their education, there are public exams to shuffle the students and move them to different school according to their test results. These public exams put a lot of pressure on students and these exams make you truly feel like "life or death". Some kids kill themselves because they did not make it to the best schools.

    Some people call their educational method "stuffing duck", meaning you are not required to understand, but just learn it, memorize it and do not forget. Schools use very little manipulatives. Students learn everything from books with explanation from teachers. Then they practice, practice and practice.

    Teachers are very strict. They are not your friend and would not behave like one. Teachers here in US are friendly. They joke around with you. They also use different ways to make learning fun. This won't happen where I grew up.

    Someone here said Chinese do not question anything. It is true because if you question something or someone, you would be labeled a trouble maker. Also , you are taught not to question throughout your education. "Your teacher is always right," my parents always tell me. "Not to question" is part of the culture.

    Scholarships are for scholars, meaning if you get enough A's in your public exams, you will get it. I haven't heard of any scholarship for sport achievements.

    Schools split into science, art and business track in 10th grade. You are required to make a decision what you want to be in the future. Calculus starts in the 10th grade in science track. By 11th grade, you have learned an equivalent to the first year of calculus in college. There is a big public exam at the end of 11th grade. I remember I had to stay up late and work very hard to pass the exam.

    This is my experience growing up. In my personal opinion, I don't think the education in China is superior to the education here. There are certainly some good things about that system that we can learn from, but I believe students here know how to think, reason and question, and that's what make American the way we are.





    Cindi
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    I read two books a while back, thought they were excellent but I'm not sure whether they are outdates. The books are called "The Learning Gap" and "The Teaching Gap". Both focus on differences in math education between the US and China, Japan and Germany. It was quite sobering reading.

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    I think everyone made very good points. But, since I am older, and grew up in a time when parents -- parents on this continent didn't talk about their children "being happy" when they grew up. They were suppose to study, go to college and get a good job. Preferably professional and everyone I grew up with did that. And they are happy.

    After the hippy movement, then the whole thing about being happy came about.

    And I respect the review on the Two Million Minutes movie but the whole thing on China is taken out of context. I know Austin thinks Americans (or do you mean white Americans Austin) have the corner in the market on creativity. Funny how those Chinese figured out how to used corn cobs to feed the cattle. What were they thinking, thinking of something so easily and simple before the Americans?

    For anyone who wants a full view, may I suggest a book: Four Swans. A unique view of Life before and after Mao. I think that the recovery China has made since Mao almost destroyed it. How long would it take the US to recover from such crazy man in charge? He makes Bush look like a gift from the Gods.

    After that, China is doing amaziningly well and can only increase its ability to do so because they are hungry. Hungry to learn, to succeed and to be able to play and be happy.

    Ren

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    Made a mistake, Wild Swans is the name of the book not Four Swans.

    Ren

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    I think everyone made very good points. But, since I am older, and grew up in a time when parents -- parents on this continent didn't talk about their children "being happy" when they grew up. They were suppose to study, go to college and get a good job. Preferably professional and everyone I grew up with did that. And they are happy.

    After the hippy movement, then the whole thing about being happy came about.

    And I respect the review on the Two Million Minutes movie but the whole thing on China is taken out of context. I know Austin thinks Americans (or do you mean white Americans Austin) have the corner in the market on creativity. Funny how those Chinese figured out how to used corn cobs to feed the cattle. What were they thinking, thinking of something so easily and simple before the Americans?

    For anyone who wants a full view, may I suggest a book: Four Swans. A unique view of Life before and after Mao. I think that the recovery China has made since Mao almost destroyed it. How long would it take the US to recover from such crazy man in charge? He makes Bush look like a gift from the Gods.

    After that, China is doing amaziningly well and can only increase its ability to do so because they are hungry. Hungry to learn, to succeed and to be able to play and be happy.

    Ren


    Well, Ren, I'm older than you and I was raised being told that mans purpose was to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. That does not exclude being well-educated, for many of the first Universities in the United States were founded by religious groups. We are also to serve others, as exhibited by the many hospitals founded by religious groups.

    I'd also be shocked if the Chinese taught the Americans anything about feeding corn to cattle. Corn, aka Maize, is native to the Americas. Bos Taurus came over with the early immigrants, and I would think they started raiding the Native's corn fields as soon as they got a taste of the corn. It's a cow's natural inclination to eat the ear grain and cob together. A quick search of the net indicates maize was not introduced to China until at least 50 years after European immigrants were comming to the Americas.

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