Today my DS5 started a new summer camp and he hated it. When I picked him up, he looked miserable. He started to sob as he entered the car and said was that he never wanted to see that place again. I feel really torn about whether we should push him to return and attend future weeks or if we should just ask for a refund and let him stay home.

Some background: My son is introverted and very sensitive to noise and chaotic situations. He has social skills issues (he is getting help with this). He hates sports and generally connects with other nerdy kids one on one over similar interests. While he attended part-time preschool for three years, it was a small, nurturing program where he felt safe and knew everybody. He has always attended camps at the preschool but I felt like he had outgrown them and signed him up for some tinkering/science camps this summer. I am home for the summer and also have a two year old so I don't need the child care. I signed my son up for a few scattered weeks of camp so he could have fun and maybe connect meet some new kids who share his interests. While he does know one kid in this camp well, the kid ignored him when he ran up to say hello and I'm not sure if it got better as the day progressed. My son was very enthusiastic about going to this camp until drop off. I think the huge campus and large number of kids (many older) and the fact that he didn't see any friendly faces really scared him. My husband, who did the drop off, said that the camp seemed minimally staffed and that nobody appeared to notice that my son was upset about my husband leaving. He thought that if a counselor had made an attempt to come over and connect with my son, the transition would have been better.

My son complained about a few things. First, there were tons of people. It was loud and chaotic. They spent very little time tinkering and lots of time "waiting around" or in the yard with balls (which he isn't interested in). He said the projects weren't particularly challenging. He was unimpressed with the equipment and materials and said we have all the same stuff at home. He was really upset that there wasn't any soldering or tools! He said he was confused about the pickup procedure and started to cry when his one friend left and that nobody came to help him for a while.

This camp has amazing ratings and everybody kid I know loves it. I wonder if it's worth it to push my son to go back and see if he likes it better once he recognizes the place and some familiar faces. I recognize that I'm a bit overprotective. I feel like I am this way partly because I deeply relate to my son's introverted tendencies. I also know that he is very sensitive and he's just not like other kids who either have a disposition that enables them to jump into this kind of situation or the experience of doing so.

I also feel guilty because we have so much fun when my son is off. We spend hours building forts in the woods, hiking at the beach and visiting space museums. I hate to have my son miserable in some camp when we could be enjoying summer. On the other hand, I recognize that this could be a very good experience for him.

I have received so much wise advice and support on this board. If you've experienced this with your child, what did you do? What advice would you give to me?

Trying to think back to 5. My DS is also introverted and I'm trying to think back to what I did at 5. I believe I just left DS at his preschool/daycare for the summer. But we did these kinds of camps as DS got older. I never got a I hate the camp from him but we did try a number of things that didn't work. I usually made DS finish the week. And I learned what worked and learned to ask a lot of questions and be very careful what I selected. Plus I found that a lot of the camps were a lot of 'been there done that' and science camps were the same kit experiments done over & over. A lot of promise and less fun than advertised. Lots of time for the kids to just be goofy and less actual science being learned. But if he stayed at home there would be no one else to play with and all he want to do was computer games.

I guess what I would do is try a second day. Talk with the director about DS's experience the first day and see if some more attention from a counselor will make a difference. Maybe they can help him connect with another kid. Just having one friend might help. A lot of kids go through a rough time with this kind of transition. When I was in this situation I really struggled with how hard to push. I wanted DS to experience some social situations and sometimes if he could find a kindred soul they would work.

ITA.

Ditto.

I would also add that when I was a young adult (early 20s) I was really into physical fitness and used to lifeguard and teach kids and adults to swim at a local rec centre. In the camp's defense, I quickly learned that if a kid got their face wet (which many non swimmers fear) they would take their cue from the adult about how to react - if I made a fuss of them they would sense concern and it would exponentially increase the level of their freak out whereas if I pretended it was a game and laughed about it or ignored it they would deal with it on their own eventually. So maybe that is why no counsellor way there for him when your husband left.

But if he has another crappy day then withdraw him for sure.

Ah, been there. Older DD is an extrovert, so when younger DS wasn't as excited about the same classes/camps she had enjoyed, I had to decide when it was worth giving him a little push to try a bit longer. Ages 3-5 were the worst, with him outright refusing to try certain things, even though he had friends in the class. There were tears, refusals...ugh...but that is all in the past. To give you an idea of how hesitant he was to try new activities, I've sat in a corner or nearby during a camp or class on quite a few occasions, just so he would stay and see what it was like. I was/am not trying to change DS, but I did feel like with him, at least - I had to have him really give things a try. We did quit an activity or two, but for the most part, he ended up warming to the activity and ultimately enjoying it. Now, at 7 - he is MUCH more willing to try new activities and quickly makes new friends. He is still an introvert, but a pretty social one, with many friends! This is child and situation-specific, though, of course - so he really just may not enjoy the camp. Camps, specifically, can make a young introvert feel "lost." They can be loud, less organized, and be a hard place to find a quiet moment to just think or relax. Best of luck - go with your gut. You know your child best.

I think I would just go ahead and withdraw him.

- It's a loud, noisy place, and he doesn't do well in loud, noisy places.
- Much of the activity revolves around ball playing, and he doesn't like to play ball.
- He has social issues, and this sounds like a chaotic social situation.
- In addition to all of the above, he's 5, and therefore needs a lot of staff attention to help get him going, but the place is minimally staffed.

How is he supposed to connect with other kids when he's dealing with sensory overload, already has a social deficit, and he doesn't want to play the things the other kids are playing? It just doesn't seem like a good match.

I agree with Dude - if he doesn't need to go (for child care) and there's not an activity there worth doing, I'd withdraw him.

We have pushed our kids to attend camps that had an activity they wanted to learn, but were balking for an 'environment' reason - e.g. a robotics camp DD wanted to back out of when she realized all the other campers were boys and the counselors as well. In that case we worked with the camp director to switch her to an activity and group she was more comfortable with - i.e. it had a couple of girls.

In your case, I don't see the upside. I would try again later maybe with a better-suited camp. Age 5 is still pretty young - his sensitivities may lessen as he gets older, making it easier to tolerate noisy, crowded situations.

Also, it's a real bummer trying to cajole, persuade, bribe your kids to attend an experience that is supposed to be fun. (Having flashbacks to last summer. )

To amplify Can2K's point, we've also pushed our DD10 in certain activities, but they were:

1) Activities she originally asked for.
2) Activities in which we felt there was something vital she could learn there.

So, for example, when DD was 8, and wanted to give drama a try, we signed her up, and she found it fun at first, until she inevitably drew the attention of the kid who she found obnoxious and annoying, but who always followed DD around because she wanted to be DD's friend (this is a pattern for DD). By the time DD's complaints reached the level where she wanted to withdraw, she'd already begun rehearsals for the upcoming play, so we made her see it through to learn "How to fulfill obligations when others are counting on us." When DD decided she couldn't learn the next skill in gymnastics, we made her stay put until the end of the paid session, because what we really wanted her to learn is "How to keep trying in the face of failure and eventually succeed."

Like Can2K, I'm not seeing a life lesson to be learned in your DS's case.

This situation reminds me of when our son was four and we decided to sign him up for swimming lessons at the local pool. Since we live on a river, it was expected that we would try to teach as early as possible, and we thought four was a good age.

I stayed through lesson after lesson as I watched him panic about going into the water. He had to be talked into it and he would cry when we were getting into the car to go to lessons. He would cry at the pool and hold on to the side for dear life. The instructors finally managed to get him out to the water on a noodle, but then wanted him to dunk his head. He refused so they dunked him. He came up screaming because the water went up his nose.

I'm upset as I write this because the whole time this was going on, I sat in the bleachers with the other parents of similar age kids who all told me not to worry, that it would be worse if I took him out of lessons and that their own kids reacted that way the first time, blah...blah...blah. I should have listened to my instinct that first two days and pulled him and blow off the money. (no refunds)

But, no. I made him go. The last day, they corralled the kids out of the pool into a line and up the steps to a water slide. My son went along. (I was surprised) He got to the top and I could see him hesitate, but the swim instructor pushed him down. He landed and went under and came up screaming bloody murder.

That was his "graduation". Lessons over. He later told me he thought the line was to go to the exit and when he was at the top of the slide and realized they wanted him to go down, he refused but they pushed him.

I was so ticked off, at myself, for not following my gut.

So, take this for what it's worth. If your child hates camp, don't make him go.

DD was 8 the summer this happened to us. She stayed in the camp, but was miserable and I don't think it was worthwhile. (At 8, she had more perspective and internal resources than a 5 year old.) Lessons learned:

Social disappointment can make the experience unrecoverable.

Most camps that offer what you love doing at home... will be introducing that hobby to NT kids who have never done it before. Many camps run all day but only offer the specialty topic for 1/2 to 1 hour, and the rest is pretty much athletics and team building. After that summer we stopped signing her up for anything that offered a well-rounded program of FUN! because it wasn't a match. The next year we realized that even in specialty science camps, any camp without a qualifying test of some sort would not be at the right level.

If you have the energy, home-camp might work better: one planned activity or excursion per day, scheduled as a play date with a friend, if possible. For a socially uncertain kid, having to compete with hundreds of others for their best friend's attention can be completely crushing.

DS didn't care for camp, either, for the same reasons as the OP. Finally after 1st grade (and after he came home from camp telling me a counselor taught them how to play Chubby Bunny...yes, I called the park district about that!) we signed up for summer school and it was great. It was more structured, smaller groups, he had some autonomy in going from one classroom to another. And no waiting around! Over a few summers he took things like Journalism, cartooning, floor hockey, ping pong, math, Legos, there was a wide range of options. He enjoyed it way more than summer camp, got more out of it, and was with friends. Later he went to computer camp, also fun.

To anyone who has not heard of this - this is VERY serious. If you overhear that your child is playing this at camp or anywhere else, for that matter, you need to put a stop to it. Depending upon the age of the child, you need to talk to your child. We know of a child who died playing this game - no joke.

Sorry for the off-topic sidebar. Back to the issue at hand...

Agreed. Wikipedia and snopes cover the unfortunate deaths from this game.

I'm linking this thread to one on how to find summer camps for gifted kids, and also linking that thread to this one, as this thread contains many important considerations for choosing a summer experience for a child.

I get that you do not need the camp for childcare. But I'd encourage you to keep trying. Can you stay with him for a while? I realize you have your other child to care for. It might help him and it might help you gauge how bad or good things are at camp.

I know many kids whose parents have been quick to pull them out of every camp situation they do not immediately take to. Over the years, this can escalate such that the kids have a feeling they can "ditch" camps and the parents are always nervous about it. I also know kids who refuse to go to camps unless they know many/the majority of kids, because they typically operate in small, known social groups (eg--small private schools). This can really become an issue for working parents in summer. I know kids differ, and summer can be hard for introverts, but I do think it's important to work on learning to adjust to new environments, because this skill will be called for again and again.

I couldn't agree more.

Given that your DS has a big transition to kindergarten coming up, I'd proceed very carefully here. You don't want him to reach the conclusion that one bad day means it's all over.

This is PRECISELY why I tried to work on the issue with DS when I did. DS is the cautious type that could have also refused to then go to school (but K went fine, because we had already worked through the issue). Also, some of the very classes he was expressing doubts about were classes HE had wanted to sign up for/had interests in...so I saw a pattern developing that I felt I needed to work on with him. OP, your situation could be different, though, I understand.

How did today go?

So today was better. Last night I emailed the camp director and told her about the rough transitions. I asked her to ask the counselor to check in with my son a few times during the day.

This morning I told my son stories about all the times I had been the new person in a new place (in kindergarten, moving to New York City from a small town, new jobs, etc.) I explained how hard it is for anybody to get through those first couple of days. That seemed to really comfort him and put things into perspective a bit.

When we arrived at camp, the counselors were all very warm and greeted my son by name. They also enthusiastically told my son that they would be working on chants today and asked him for high fives. My son just glared at them. I walked my son to his group and waited for a few minutes while he settled in. His main counselor came over and greeted him and admired some washers that my son had found on the ground. I told him that we were leaving and he waved goodbye and headed off without hesitating.

When I picked my son up, he was a bit off because he didn't really eat all day (he played with and smashed his food and only ate the treat). He wasn't thrilled but he wasn't completely negative, either. He told me about one project he made. He was proud that he got points for stumping the counselors with a question (why does copper conduct electricity well?) He also was annoyed that counselors in a circuit/tinkering camp didn't know the answer to his question (but he did). I asked if he learned anything and he said he learned the chant, "Liar! Liar! Your pants are on fire!" He also learned a camp song. Nothing about tinkering. While the website promised work on parallel circuits, instead they made simple sculptures with LEDs attached to a battery.

My son's friend continued to ignore him most of the day. He even ignored me when I greeted him. My son said the boy played with him a bit but mostly played by himself. I usually think of the kid as being very social so I'm surprised. I thought about emailing his mom but I'm not sure how to approach it or if it would help. Maybe I should check in and see if he's enjoying camp or has mentioned anything?

This evening it's not clear if my son will be going to camp tomorrow. He said that if his friend played with him that camp would be okay but it's not fun when his only friend is ignoring him and the projects aren't interesting. I agree but I'm also amazed by how much better the second day went. I think we will see how he feels in the morning.

Thanks again for all the great insight and advice!

That. Oh that.

Even DD's pottery camp - which was exactly like you describe yours - was only half an hour a day of pottery (and they weren't allowed near the wheel). As for for anything techy, I've finally accepted that the closest thing to a functional science camp I could ever find is trying to convince some nice physics grad student to let DS job-shadow him for a week....

Lepa, it sounds like you have found a great balance. Encourage and support him to not give up too easily, but recognize there's lots of reasons the camp may be a poor fit, and none of them are his fault. Keep doing what you're doing: give it a fair try, talk to him about the challenge of transitions and what would make a good match. And then, feel comfortable bailing if reasoned discussion - not knee-jerk panic - says this is a poor match. My very introverted, noise-sensitive DD wanted nothing to do with camps until she was about 7, but now has a long list of things she wants to try. It's lovely to be a SAHM and have the luxury of letting her wait until she's ready.

This echoes our experience. Making a list of pros and cons during the discussion of this camp, or even a list of pros and cons of each day, may help with decision-making and guiding the discussion.

Weighing the various pros can cons in this case, is the most weight being placed on the friend's behavior rather than on the camp offerings? Seeing the decision-making process being placed on paper teaches the child a tool for future decision making. If you add the name of the camp, date, and the child's age and keep this for future reference, this may make a great catalyst for future discussion and planning. For example, when making plans for summer activities for next year, when the same friend (or former friend) is in one of your child's classes and becomes the subject of child's discussion at home, or when your child looks back on how he has grown as compared with what he used to think was important.

Keeping a copy of the camp description with your decision-making page can also be a great tool for teaching your child about hyperbole, especially marketing hype. When vetting future activities you may wish to ask how much time of each day is spent on the featured activity.

I'm so sorry this happened. Please know that not all lessons are conducted this way! For many swim instruction classes, there is no pressure: when introducing and practicing each skill, the child's participation in each skill activity is considered optional. A child "graduates" to the next level when they have voluntarily performed each skill, showing the confidence to freely choose to do so.

A program which boasts of passing the majority of kids quickly through the progression of skills may be conducted differently than a program which places emphasis on the child's voluntary participation and manages parental expectations that it may be rare for a child to progress through skill levels in one class (2-3 repetitions of a level may be the norm).

I think it's important not to put eggs in one basket regarding a friend at camp. Sometimes kids who are close at one place are not close at another. For parent and child both, relying on this can be risky. It is okay if the other boy does not want to play with your son...KWIM? I would want to have a discussion about this, because it will probably happen again.

I also think, and this may sound very pessimistic, that depending on your educational plans, you may need to talk to your son about how environments may not provide the kind of challenge or the level and depth he wants and can get at home. It is a lesson gifted kids have to learn unless exclusively homeschooled or in a very unique environment, I think. It's important to be able to enjoy environments despite this.

Another advantage of staying in and trying various programs is that you may meet other parents and kids who you may connect and/or who may be able to tell you where to find a more appropriate experience. I know and my kids know that we can't expect much from a general age-based science camp, but sometimes we get surprised by a good instructor or just a really fun activity--it's out there. For challenge, you might look for a lego or robotics league or chess.

ITA with ultramarina -


I'd also suggest thinking about this from the other child's point of view - would you expect your child to be expected to always play with the same friend?


Realizing that expectations may not equal reality also happens with non-gifted kids and camps too. And fwiw, my kids have had good experiences and a lot of fun over the years in camps that weren't specifically for gifted kids. I've also found that with two of my three kids, when I ask them what they did or how their day went when they were at a camp or in any type of multiple-hour activity, their first inclination is to tell me about what they *didn't* like rather than what was fun or interesting. I think it's important to dig deep enough to find things that a child can look at as positive and really know for sure that the camp either was or wasn't as negative as it sounds.


The other thing that may happen is that your child may make a connection with another child. The interesting thing I found over the years watching my kids go through our area's science/outdoors/etc type summer camps was that, even though they weren't "gifted" camps and even though they didn't have admissions requirements etc - there was a basic group of children that my children landed in camps with repeatedly - not all the same children at each camp, but there would be children throughout the years that my children would be in camp with and know from previous camps. Quite a large number of these children turned out to be the same kids who were in gifted classes/etc once they were in school. So I wouldn't assume your child is out there all in his own little lonely land just because he's intellectually gifted and the camp isn't teaching kids high-level stuff.

Best wishes,

polarbear

We had a similar crash and burn experience at summer camp last week.
To give us something fun and creative to fill our time, my son decided to sign up for the online school of wizardry through https://diy.org/camps. It started last Saturday and has been a good experience so far--a new activity every day, which is a big help to me as a non-crafty mom.

I would withdraw him if it's a bad experience. Just because every other kid loves it doesn't mean your kid will love it, or that it's the right environment for him. We have had some really up and down camp experiences.

It's important to keep in mind that a lot of camps are staffed by high school or college kids who need a summer job. They may have no experience with kids like yours. They are rarely teachers, and a most camps aren't going to run like a classroom. So you aren't really going to teach your kid how to survive in elementary school by sending them to camp.

When DD was younger we had a lot of trouble with camps being too loud/busy/chaotic and with counselors who expected that a kid who could talk like an adult ought to be able to behave with maturity, too. She isn't an introvert but has a lot of sensory processing issues which get pounded on in loud, busy places.

I've found it easiest to pick the "right" camp by calling up whoever's in charge and asking them a lot of questions about who they hire to staff the camp, how many kids are in a "class", what the schedule and environment are like, and so on.

Yes, I agree with this also, and it's kind of what I was trying to get at.


I think adjusting to camp is actually pretty applicable to adjusting to school. You have to meet and figure out how to hang out with new kids; you have to work with new authority figures; and there are new routines and experiences to adapt to. You're not expected to perform educationally or learn much, but in a way that just makes it easier to practice those "soft" school skills.

I wanted to provide an update. After three days of misery, I let my son withdraw from the camp. He was so unhappy when I picked him up from the third day of camp. He seemed zoned out and really sad. I found out that most of the third day had been spent on all-camp activities, so about 100 kids were all chanting and playing a huge all-camp game of dodge ball. My son was hit in the head and just fell apart. He wasn't injured, but rather in sensory overload and couldn't cope with it. He also complained that the camp didn't follow the lesson plan for the day (posted on the website). He said the kids just sat in a room and spent hours gluing paper and cardboard together, added an LED at the end and called it science. They apparently did the same activity all three days.

I talked to a psychologist who works with my son on social skills and she agreed there wasn't any upside to keeping him in the camp if he was miserable. She said that camp is too chaotic and unstructured for introverted or sensitive kids. I wish she had told us before we signed up!

My son is open to trying another camp so I signed him up for a quiet, nature camp where he will only spend three hours a day with a small group of children learning about bugs, soil chemistry and wilderness survival skills. The psychologist said it's a good fit for sensitive kids. My son loves spending time in the woods so I think he will be happy even if the camp content isn't particularly engaging.

I'm glad that I let him leave the camp after trying it out for a few days. I think that he is willing to try a new camp because he knows I will listen to him if it doesn't work out. He seems like he really does want to go to a camp and have a positive experience.


Thanks again for the range of perspectives you provided. It really helped me to be thoughtful about this decision.

Personally, I would print the lesson plan from the camp website and inquire about the schedule of activities which took place, and how these activities fulfilled what was posted. If they do not provide an answer and/or if the answer does not match facts your son observed, then they are engaging in false advertising and deceptive practices. If they did not deliver what they promised, then I would ask for a refund.

Bait-and-switch is unethical, and an observant kid might develop trust issues from seeing this type of behavior ensue behind parents' backs. IMO, this is *not* about a kid being sensitive, this is about a system being disingenuous.

Please praise your child for telling you what he observed.

Not a fan of dodge ball. I understand there are versions with soft, squishy balls to avoid injury. Center for Disease Control (CDC) has a document explaining about concussion, including signs and symptoms. Your description of "zoned out and really sad" might be a sign that he could be checked for concussion.

I would still talk with the people who run this camp before it starts-- get information from them about how they handle children who don't instantly fit in, and give the person who will be with the children a sense of who your child is.

Preparation can help ease the way-- adults who run camps can't always be expected to "get it" but often will try hard if they know there's a challenge.

That sounds like a good fit. I hope it works out better.

I cannot imagine any swimming instructor behaving that way. I hope you made a complaint.

If I understand correctly, the parent was possibly a bit intimidated or swayed by what appeared to be the prevailing views expressed by the other parents present at the time: "other parents of similar age kids who all told me not to worry, that it would be worse if I took him out of lessons and that their own kids reacted that way the first time, blah...blah...blah."

Dunking, like many risk-taking approaches, may be controversial with strong views on both sides. I would not tend to include dunking among appropriate risks. My concern is not only for how the child processes dunking in regard to their sense of safety in water (while some may decide being dunked was fun, some may not)... Dunking may role model physically forceful behavior, and hinder the development of trust of authority figures.