Most of you have probably heard my complaints about the local schools, and how they are not challenging my son at all. We've made some minor adjustments that have helped a lot, but DS still says he's bored at school. I wonder if that is related to the fact that he's acting like a brat at home? His teacher says he's very well behaved, but the minute he gets off the bus in the afternoons he turns into a totally different kid. I have raised him to respect people in general (not just adults) but it seems he respects everyone except me! He tells me he hates me constantly, but still wants me to do "window math" with him (we do math problems on the back door in dry erase marker). He throws gigantic temper tantrums over tiny things (last night we got home later than expected and he threw a fit because he didn't get the chance to play with his transformers - even though he played with them for a good hour earlier in the day). He sulks and pouts every time I ask him to do something, but five minutes later he'll show up with his chess set asking if I can play with him. After his massive tantrum this morning (over brushing his teeth, of all things) he started crying and saying that he was afraid no one in the family would like him anymore because he is so mean. But he offered no apology or anything. Now that I'm writing all of this down, he almost seems like he's lonely. But his teacher says he has plenty of friends and seems happy at school. I know that extreme emotions are not all that unusual for gifted children, but this seems a bit beyond normal to me. I'm at a total loss for how to deal with this. I'm tired of crying every day after he gets on the bus, and most importantly I'm tired of seeing my little boy so unhappy. Any idea what the problem may be, or what I may be able to do to fix it? I would really like to work on solving this problem before this summer, when his daddy goes to Afghanistan and we have all NEW emotional issues to deal with!

My inclination would be both to get him evaluated for depression/anxiety, but also to start a conversation with the school. Often kids who are stressed at school are actually too stressed to act out at school, but then explode at home.

DeeDee

I don't let the "I hate you"s slide. I tell DD6 that they hurt my feelings and she apologizes and I notice that she makes more effort not to say it when she gets toward tantrum stage.

I also don't let other bad behaviors slide. I know she does behave much better in the class but she learns her social behaviors first within the family. I know a child that kicked and hit her mother when she didn't like something and she was BFF with DD when in preschool. As they got to be good friends, this child would then kick or hit DD when DD said she wanted to play with someone else. And then Dd tried to kick me at home. Luckily we just ended the relationship and reinforced that she cannot kick without severe consequences.

I just wrote a letter to the teachers, cc principal. A boy in DD's class is bullying her. First incident she told me about and I just said to ignore (though my mother bear instincts actually wrote a letter to the teachers -- but stopped myself from sending as premature). On a field trip two weeks ago, I saw the boy deliberately push himself through where DD was standing, getting ready to hear the farm lady. DD reacted verbally and I hushed her. Later I told her to ignore the boy because her yelling at him was what he wanted. This boy is more than a head taller than DD, so pushing is a force for her. I saw in the school yard, before school, Dd was talking to a friend, who was about 6 inches away. This boy walked between them, pushing his way through. DD ignored. It seems the more she ignores, the more he does this. She told me that yesterday he swung his lunch bag and hit her 3 times, without saying sorry. She told the assistant teacher but it crossed the line for me and I wrote the teachers and principal. I let her know that no one can hit her like this or push her. She has to know what is acceptable at school, at home. It is the same.

I think they have to learn very early good behavior starts at home.

Ren

That was DS8 back in K. He kept it together at school and fell into pieces at home. It was school related, but it took me a while to figure out. As a matter of fact I didn't realize it was the case till we started homeschooling the following year.

Hi Treecritter.

First of all ((hugs)) to you.

I have a few questions. How long has your DS7's behavior been this extreme? Is it something new? Or has it been this way for a while? Can you think back to approximately when it started to get out of control to try to see if there is anything that may be coincidental?

Also, are you sure that he's not ill? When my DS8 (since he was 4) has Strep, for example, his ONLY symptoms are 1) a headache for about 20 minutes one day, 2) a stomach ache for about 20 minutes one day, 3) somewhat swollen neck glands, and 4) completely over-the-top behavior until he gets antibiotics. That's all -- no sore throat or complaints about anything. I used to battle with the pediatrician's office to get them to check him for Strep with only these symptoms, until they saw consistently that I was right. DS is already an anxious, emotional kid, but when he has Strep, things are very exaggerated. The pediatrician told me it's not completely unheard of in other kids, too.

Also, you mention that his Dad is going to Afghanistan this summer. Is that a frequent topic of conversation in the house? I wonder if it's causing your DS anxiety. My DH is frequently away for a week to a month. We've found that we really can't prepare our DC for it, because the preparation just leads to longer anxiety about it. So, when possible, we try not to discuss it until a day or two before.

Another thing is whether anything "exciting" is going on. When DS was in K, we had him evaluated by a psychologist because of his apparent anxiety and tantrums, and the psychologist explained that excitement and anxiety are really two sides to the same coin. It's the same emotions going on. We were trying to figure out why DS's behavior became insane every time his grandparents would visit (literally, they told us they thought he was abnormal and needed to be seen by a psychiatrist). But then we thought about it.... The grandparents were usually coming for a big exciting occassion. For example, they'd come in December, when we have both DC's b'days plus Christmas, plus the preparation for having out of town guests plus having the excitement of out of town guests all wrapped into one month -- poor DS just couldn't handle it.

Anyway, I agree with MoN and Wren that the "I hate you!" talk ought not be ignored. I think that a calm, clear discussion about your feelings is in order. I find it doubtful that your DS is even angry with you. You may just be his safe harbor, where he can vent without worrying. No matter how hurtful, THAT is a good thing. But I think it is important to help him find a way to communicate his feelings in a way that is acceptable to you both.

((Hugs)) again, and good luck!

I've considered having him evaluated by a psychologist - anxiety issues run in my family, and I've wondered for a while if stress was a contributing factor.
I've tried starting a conversation with him and asking if he can tell me what is bothering him so that I can help. He says he doesn't know, and I think he's telling the truth about that.
He started getting a bit of an attitude when he was about 5 1/2 - but it's gotten much worse over the past couple of months. His dad's upcoming deployment may contribute, but we rarely talk about it in front of him so I doubt that is all of it. He's leaving during the summer, so I figured we would wait until school was out to address that issue.
I don't think he's sick. This has been going on for WAY too long for that. And he has never complained of headaches or any other symptoms - even small ones. However, he does seem sleepy a lot lately, and I wonder if he's having trouble sleeping at night.
The theory of it being "excitement" instead of "anger" is intriguing. Since we moved here we've had to deal with a new house and school, a trip to Disney World, two birthdays, Halloween, his first time living in a neighborhood with kids he can play with.....the list goes on and on. He has spent a lot of time with the boys across the street, who tend to be rambunctious and often border on disrespectful. But he rarely sees how they interact with their mother, since she is rarely outside with them. Could he be picking up bad habits from them?
It seems there are a million things that COULD be causing this, and it seems logical that it is a combination of several different things. Problem is, I don't know how to deal with any of them, or make him feel better.

It's probably not too surprising that your DS doesn't know what the problem is at this young age. My DS is VERY verbal, and even now at almost 9, he has trouble identifying what is bothering him. When DS gets an attitude, he and I have conversations to discuss that we are both obviously aware that there is a problem, and we talk about what are appropriate and inappropriate ways to vent. Sometimes, the best vent seems to be laps around the "circuit" in our house until he is just tuckered out.

If I were in your situation now, I would try to take things down a notch. You can't change the new school/house/neighborhood, but you might be able to try to make things calm. In the really stressful times, I severely limit the number of activities we commit to and do my best to have things orderly and calm in the house. The boys may miss a birthday party or an event, but I believe that's an acceptable price to pay for the family's mental health. During these times, I also make sure that the DC are getting plenty of good cardiovascular exercise and lots of sleep. I try to ensure that there is "downtime" for them to do what they want and dedicated family or DC/parent time, at least a couple days a week.

During the stressful times, especially when DS was younger, I also found that DS had a hard time getting to sleep. Not sure whether or not that's true with yours. DH or I would sit alone with him, in the dark on a couch in our bedroom and play calming games with him. For us, it was our versions of 20 questions -- with an effort on never making it too exciting, nor too difficult. Sometimes, we would do random math problems with him. We were just looking for things that would distract him from whatever was bothering him without getting him ramped up, long enough so that he could relax his mind and go to sleep.

Those are some of the things we've tried that have worked. YMMV. I hope you're able to find something that helps. Know that you're not alone and chances are good that this WILL resolve, especially since you're obviously so aware that he needs some help and are dilligently looking for answers. Your DS is lucky to have such a caring Mom.

We were worried about anxiety in our son and a psychologist helped immensely. I've recommended this before on these boards, and maybe it is a bit extreme, but DS talked to her two separate times, and he was back to his normal happy self. The psychologist has a way of asking questions and getting DS to talk that I cannot seem to copy (I've tried). We are more than willing to get outside help, though, since DS is 2e and we have been seeing different types of therapists and experts since he was 2 years old! I know a lot of people attach a stigma to going to a psychologist, but I was so happy with the results that I would not hesitate to return if (when?) he ever needs a tune up!! Nan

You need to also remember that this a common behavor in kids this age. The are choosing to say something that they know will get a reaction. This is the age when boundries are tested, just how far can I go. I have friends who have cried when a child says this and then gives the child something. It can be a manipuating tactic. When my son tried this I would say "well I love you and always will" that was it, issue dropped. After a while he stopped. There was no reward to it. If he then tried to "make-up" I would say no and explain why, cause- effect.
It may be mistaken but I feel as if you feel guilty about all the changes that have happened. Don't! You and the family are doing what is necessary, including the deployment. Your son may need outside help in dealing with this.
Just remember raising children can be like AA, one day at a time or even one hour at a time.

Only you can tell if this is really out of the norm or not. I find this sort of behavior very common in K and 1st grade. In part, my kids are pushing boundaries and in part they are very tired from school and figuring out the social pieces of school and they decompensate when they get home to a safe location.

Cat

I agree with Cat. My DS just turned 6 and is in kindergarten. He's been having crazy mood swings this week. He is tired and ready for the Thanksgiving break. He told me multiple times this week that he hated me when he didn't get what he wanted. Today he didn't want me more than a few feet away from him and said that my coming to school was the highlight of his day. I used his "wanting mommy" mood to tell him how much his words hurt yesterday. He couldn't even remember being mad at me.

I have a slightly different take on this. I think little kids find it slightly terrifying that they have the power to hurt their parents. They need to know that their parents are strong enough to still be calm and in control and emotionally okay, even if they (the kid) flails against them.

This struck me from the original post: "After his massive tantrum this morning he started crying and saying that he was afraid no one in the family would like him anymore because he is so mean." To me that sounds like a kid who is already freaking out about his power to hurt other people.

Like others, I wouldn't let "I hate you" slide. But I would say something like, "Wow, it sounds like you're really having strong feelings." Later, in a calmer moment, I would have a discussion about the behavior and why it's not okay, what some alternatives are for dealing with feelings, and why an apology is necessary when you do lose it.

In other words, I wouldn't ever put it in terms of "You hurt me, and things are not going to be okay unless you do something to un-hurt me." That's giving a child too much power in the parent-child relationship, power that they are not equipped to handle.

I tried a lighter approach and sometimes DD wasn't in a "strong feelings" mood, it was just trying to be powerful with words. And she has to learn that it is a power that is unacceptable.

Like, "clean up your room before you play with the pyramid". "I hate you". Not with strong feelings, just trying to get her way. Just like some kids might hit. She can't hit, so she started trying this. First I ignored it or treated it like a brush off. Then I realized it was not some one off slight. It was becoming part of the her reaction to something she didn't want to do. So I put a stop to it. I am not saying there wasn't any time that there were strong feelings attached and she got emotional. But not most of the time.

Ren

Excellent points, MegMeg. I have thought this about DS in the past; although he has never said "I hate you," we did have a stretch of unusually bad behavior. Because his birthmother abandoned him (at age 6, not as an infant - he was already living with his dad & me full-time and she just stopped calling), I chalked it up to him trying to find out just how bad he had to be before we abandon him, too (assuming he thought he was too bad to keep his mother).

We never explicitly discussed it, although I did once say "you can never do anything so bad that I will stop loving you, so please stop trying to find that point. It doesn't exist." I have no idea whether he understood or not; eventually he got back to his normal self.

I assumed it was because of our unusual situation, but given MegMeg's comments, maybe kids in more traditional situations experience the same need to test.

Get a good handle on his diet. Sometimes the smallest things can have the biggest effect. kids today are eating way too much crap.

This is coming from my own perspective, so take it for what it's worth.

Kids try on a lot of emotions and tactics to test you, to see what gets a rise out of you, what hurts you, what brings consequences that they don't want to experience again. And my gifted kids often challenged me as a parent more in this way.

The fact that your child can turn it on and off (not exhibiting this kind of extreme reaction or using cruel comments at school but turning them on at home) indicates to me that he is choosing to behave this way with you because it gets him something he wants - whether he's aware of doing this or not.

So analyze your response to his declarations that he hates you, his extreme display of emotions. And then ask yourself what he is getting out of that response.

Are you getting hurt and focusing on emotions so that he is let out of doing what was asked of him? If so, my bet is that he's using his behavior to get out of work he doesn't want to do. Do you drop what you were doing to focus on him and give him intense attention to analyze what's wrong with him? If this is the case, perhaps he is learning that the way to get your undivided attention is to become a worry through his behavior and words.

When you figure out what he is getting out of this interchange, you'll know how to change so that he gets what he needs in a healthier way.

My kids all tried out the "I hate you" routine on me, but only once. I came down firm, swift, and matter of fact with a lecture about how our hurtful words can wound another and that we can't take things back that we've said. I taught them without showing emotion of my own that we have every right to tell others how they make us feel - I'm feeling very angry, what you said made me mad, etc. - but that we did not have the right to be cruel when we were expressing our emotions. I then exacted a punishment that was extreme (I think my oldest had her coloring books and crayons removed for several days because she was still very little when she tried this tactic on me).

If your child is doing this to get out of work, make sure it doesn't work. If your child is doing it to get attention, make sure you make a concerted effort to set aside what you are doing to give him one on one time that is positive and productive - not to analyze his feelings or talk about yours, but to talk about his day, about some cool idea he's exploring, to show him how to do something new on the computer, etc.

If he was not able to control his feelings or expressions in every situation (school, home, the store, etc.), then I'd be more worried about an organic or emotional problem that needed intervention. This just sounds more like a very smart child trying out behaviors to see what reaction they get and how this serves him.

Oh - and I just saw your last comment about his father going to Afghanistan. If he is sensing the worry, anxiety, and more intense emotions from you - and kids are amazing barometers of our fears even if we are careful not to talk in front of them - this acting out may be a reaction to his own sense of things not being "right" at home. A calm conversation that focuses completely on how the changes will affect him and what plans you are making so that he knows his own world isn't going to be rocked (kids are self-centric and really need to know that they're going to be ok when change is pushed upon them), he may calm down as well. If he's overheard conversations or just picked up on the unspoken anxiety, he may not have the words to express what he's really afraid of.

Hope this helps. If not, please just ignore.

Actually, ABQMom, that does make sense. I've been careful not to let him use extreme emotions to get out of chores or homework, and have tried (sometimes unsuccessfully) to avoid showing that it hurts when he does that. But maybe I should look more carefully at how I have been responding and figure out what he is gaining from it. Thanks!

I always hate to think of things like this in terms of "tactics"; relationships with kids should never conceived of as a battle. Is it possible your son is trying to use emotional attacks to manipulate you? Yes - but then you have to ask the question, "Why would he want/need to?" Surely it's not normal for a child to feel the need to do something so cold-hearted and extreme. And I would doubt this is what's going on anyway, given what you said about his breaking down and worrying that he will alienate his family. Whatever is going on in his mind - whether there's intent behind his behavior or not - it sounds to me very much like the basis of it all is stress. It may well be that your son is feeling stress at school but has decided to give up the fight because of previous bad experiences - so the anger is coming out at home.

Hi Treecritter--is your DS taking any medications? We were shocked recently to discover that an allergy medication that had been prescribed sometimes had huge emotional side effects: something we discovered when our DS began having huge emotional meltdowns that were extreme, even given his naturally intense/emotional personality. Not sure if that is relevant to your situation or not, but if he's taking medications for anything it's worth checking out possible side effects.