Currently we aren't faced with this decision but its something that I think is coming. DD is in 2nd grade but is anywhere from 2-4 grades accelerated in her subjects. Her school does a great job with working to keep high kids like dd challenged. She recently got into the GT program too, which Ive heard is phenomenal at her school. She is the youngest in her grade. She started school in CA and so was 4yrs old. We moved to NV mid K. Had she started school here she wouldn't have made the cutoff.

So my question is this; With regards to grade skipping...do you feel it has hurt them at all socially? Is it hard on them to be the youngest in their class? As it is, dd will start her senior year in HS at 16, graduating at 17. My dilemma with this is how it will affect her at the HS age if she does skip. I'd hate to have to say "No, you cant go out with your friends, no you can't go to the prom etc" because of her age. And will her age make it hard for other HS kids to associate with her? kwim? I just dont want to isolate her and take away some of those things that are a part of HS. How do you deal with that issue?

Hi Tammy,

I think that it's always a trade off, and it has helped me to ask "What are my values? What message do I want to send my son?" When the rubber meets the road, your choices send messages that no amount of words can drown out. If being "just like everyone else" is the main thing, how accepted is she going to feel? She just isn't "just like everyone else."

Perhaps it's better to be flexible with your own age based rules. If as a senior in HS she is as responsible as an 18 year old, perhaps she actually deserves the same privaliges as an 18 year old? Maybe you will actually like and trust the friends she chooses? I was early enteranced, and started college at 17. I also dated boys who were about 3 grades above me. I did go to the senior prom as a young 14 year-old, with a kind and bright and shy fellow in his senior year of High School, who I knew as a friend through the Drama Club. My parents seemed to be quite comfortable with the arrangement. Generally I felt that it must be true that "girls mature earlier" because I sure felt more mature than many, but not all, of the available boys. I ended up waiting to get married until I was 30, and DH is 7 years older than I am!

Some Moms have felt that their young daughter was a "lamb amoung the wolves" when interacting with High School boys. I think it depends on the child and her personality, and how much gentle teaching a parent is willing to do. In essence, I think learning to handle sharing toys with an intense Preschool Peer is good preperation for learning to handle a "Queen Bee" in Middle School, which in turn is good preperation for handling a "Wolf" in High School and a future boss or husband. I really do believe that this can be taught, by asking good questions and listening after reading books together or watching TV shows.

Now there are some kids who are really not going to pick up on this naturally, no matter how gifted they are. Personality matters, and you have to work with what you've got. But you certainly can "decelerate" your daughter at anytime if the benifits outweigh the disadvantages. Some kids go to college early then return for High School. Once you leave behind the wish for "normal" many things are possible. The possibilities are not as many as we deserve, but still more than we can imagine.

Well, that's a lot to think about...What interesting challenges our children hand us!

Enjoy,
Trinity

Yes that is a lot to think about!

I think one of the hardest parts of having a gifted child is keeping them balanced. Their intelligence is so far ahead of their peers (in most cases) and the older they get the more aware of that they become. At the same time, they are still children, especially emotionally. I dont want to rush adulthood but I think you're right. It does depend on the maturity of the child and what you think your child can handle, both emotionally and academically.

Lots to think about.

Good advice, Dottie. One step at a time, right?

Interesting discussion Tammy,

I think my DS was quite as aware as one could be of his difference even as early as daycare/preschool. In a way, now that he has words, and experience, and more kids to be actual friends with, he seems less aware, or at least more comfortable. I don't think it's an either/or choice: childhood or adulthood. I think it's an "alternate developmental path."

In a way, I think that some are, or at least seem, less mature emotionally, but I tell myself that's because they have adult-sized challenges to cope with.

Personally the best way I have to think about my son, and my dear others, is that we are many, many ages all at once. I try to think the best I can about the breating kid I have in front of me, at every instance, informed by past experience AND imagination for the future.

smiles,
Trinity

Maybe this is where the difficulty lies for me, Trinity. dd is very comfortable in her skin. She knows that she is different than other kids intellectually. There are times when she'll tell me that she just doesn't understand the way some kids think and act. We always tell her that every child learns in different ways and at different paces and to be patient with those who don't/can't understand things the same way that she can. She's very confident, is a leader in her class, and knows the entire teaching staff at school. They love her but then again she has always related well to adults. She does have days where she reverts a bit, and the immaturity shows. (I know they all do that! haha) There are many areas where she acts just like a 7 year old would and should. I think she could handle skipping grades and we would always take our experiences with her and make an informed decision if the situation of skipping every arose.

I think whats hard is I feel the burden of making the right choice or not! But you are right, sometimes following their lead is all you can do. Thanks for talking this out with me. It might be a bit premature but I tend to be a planner and like to be very thorough in my decisions. (to the point of over-thinking sometimes!)

This was a thought that came up after reading about so many of you having children that did skip grades. Ive always been opposed to it simply for the fact that I didnt want her to have to grow up too fast but the truth of the matter is exactly what you said:

Jill,
I tend to agree with you that a gradeskip is sort of a least worst option, and for my family configuration much easier to swallow than your situation! I would love a self contain classroom, or school, particularly if it allowed the children to mix with a heterogenious grouping for art and gym, but have grouping for academics - particularly if the groupings were really individualized so that where a child was with handwriting didn't effect where they were with reading.

For us, moving wasn't an option, but I am very excited for you. Also, there is a difference between trying to prevent problems and trying to recover from problems. In our situation there was a core of fear and sadness that a school switch and a grade skip really seemed to help. Of course, personality and level of gifteness make a big difference. I'm thinking that my son is more similar to your DS2 in level of giftedness, so that a single skip into the richer ground of Middle School, with group acceleration in Math, plus every extracurricular activity one can find seems to be a better fit than where he was. Personality wise, a boy with that "I'll show you" gleam in his eye, like my DS11, just wasn't going to tolerate not learning anything in school.

So, it varies, but yes, there could be much, much better than gradeskips for our little ones. One room school house comes to mind.

Smiles,
Trinity

Hey Everyone!

There is so much traffic here recently-it�s great! The more opinions, the better, right?

Both of my kids will graduate HS at 17. I can�t imagine if they were a grade lower. It would certainly not be academically advantageous.

As far as sports go, my husband and I were recently discussing how DS would not be the least bit challenged in basketball if he were in his �legal� (thanks Dottie) grade. We watch the younger (lower grade) kids play before the 6th grade games and can�t even imagine him on their team. In fact, he was very happy on a community league (after the school BB season) last year were they grouped the 5th and 6th graders together. He was one of a few 5th graders, and of course, the youngest. He did just fine and his abilities probably improved by �playing up�!

That said, we did turn down an offer to skip 6th grade (this year). We felt it came too late. We are really hedging our bets. If he is accepted to a level 4 school in the next year or so, it may not be a problem. However, if he has to attend a typical HS, we may be hurting!

I totally agree, Dottie! I am thrilled that there is a place that I can go to discuss issues regarding my dd and have the people there actually truly understand what Im going through! Its wonderful.

Tammy-

The research has been done, and the large majority of kids who were skipped speak positively about it. There are far more horror stories out there about kids who were not accelerated or given sufficient academic challenge.

As for dating...I dated guys who were 20 and 21 when I was 16. The boys my own age were far less interesting to me. The older guys were also not as invested in putting notches in their belts, if you know what I mean.

It can be overwhelming to have such a different kind of kid. But I'd advise you not to look too far into the future. Just try to focus on doing the right thing NOW and worry about the prom later!

Amen, and Hallelujah! I'm so glad everyone is here and this forum is so active. Finding this site was such a relief to me!

Back to the topic at hand...

Sports are my biggest reason for not wanting to push for grade skipping (which our school system frowns upon anyway). I think he'd be fine socially, and while my mother worries about DS6 driving later than everyone else because he's such a car fanatic, that doesn't trouble me much. (It *is* 10 years away...) But the sports issue is significant in our case because while DS enjoys sports, he's no better than average at them, at least not so far. He improves significantly over the course of a season, so I think he needs time if he's going to get all the good stuff--hard work, team work, being a gracious loser/winner, patience, practice makes perfect, confidence, etc.--that sports can teach. And since I lettered in two sports in high school, I do think that stuff is important.

For now he's getting his sports through pee-wee football and YMCA classes, and that's working. As he gets older, we'll have to decide where our values lie and what needs should take precedence. I think Trinity has the values thing exactly right.

My other worry for grade skipping is the calculus trap thing. I'd prefer that we "go deep" with DS rather than that we "go fast." I think that's hard to get at a school that doesn't have IEP-style plans for gifted kids...and maybe even at schools that do! It's what I try to do with our home school lessons. DS6still wants to go faster than I do, but at least he's doing more complex problem solving with me than he would do at a "regular" school. He's being challenged, and he's getting the (really) hard ones wrong sometimes. That's all good for his development, I think.


<shrug> All we can do is the best we can do and adjust as we need to, right? I'm trying not to worry too much about it, since kids are really very adaptable, and at least trying different things for them shows that we're paying attention to their needs and trying to meet them. What more can any child reasonably expect?

Oh, and I wanted to second what Trinity said about kids learning the social stuff if you teach it to them. Every social situation doesn't have to be ideal for the kids to learn something from it. I think having the academics fit pretty well allows GT kids to do that social growth, regardless of whether they're grade skipped or not. They may have to catch up a bit, but if they're happy, they'll make friends. And since true peers are often older for HG+, I think better social fit can actually be a reason TO grade skip, not a strike against grade skipping!

K-

P.S. Our paths crossed there, Lorel. I just wanted to agree with you that I, too, always dated older guys starting from when I was 14, and not to get all "true confession-y," but I didn't lose my virginity until I was a month shy of 20, in college and deeply in love. I have no regrets about the timing. As with anything else, it depends on the girl and it depends on the guy, but it's entirely possible that the maturity level of the older kids around the GT kid can work in his/her favor. It did in my case. Boys my age were generally intimdated by me, and I was generally not interested in their immature shenanigans.

In the FWIW column...;)

My �high school� boyfriend graduated college (22) the same week that I graduated HS at 18. We eventually broke up though because he reached the �marriage� stage before I did.

I�m pretty certain that my husband won�t accept the same terms for our daughter.

But not all of us! I skipped first and, while it was not the worst thing that could have happened to me, I did not like it. I had good friends who I was separated from; I had trouble making friends in my new grade; I was not any more challenged academically in my new grade than my old one, but the top kids I displaced in the new grade resented me; I was going to go through puberty late anyway and the extra year behind put me way out of synch with my classmates; My siblings resented that I was a grade closer to them. I remember feeling like I had "fit" in my old grade and I never felt like was able to totally connect with the new class. Don't get me wrong; I was not miserable and I did have friends; I participated in clubs and other activities and realize now that I was pretty well-liked on the whole. I just remember thinking--up until college where I felt like I got a fresh start--that I would have preferred that it hadn't happened. Of course, we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out if I hadn't skipped--maybe things would have gone downhill after first grade without the skip. We'll never know.

I am not angry or resentful and I know that everyone involved meant well. But I just don't have good feelings about skipping and I am working hard to make sure that DS doesn't have to get skipped. We are doing lots of subject acceleration and after-schooling. When he was tentatively offered a skip this year, he said, "no way; I like my class." We haven't brought it up again and he seems very happy with the arrangements we have made for him.

Hi Acs,
I'll bet you really enjoyed seeing the IASM advice NOT to skip if it puts the child into an older sibling's grade! Although I have seen it work well if the older sib is female, or the younger sib is Level IV or above. Short didn't matter, Clumsy didn't matter, but irritating the older sibs is apparently a common deal breaker. Actually Clumsy helps as it take the parents off the hook on the sports argument, which I think is a reasonable one for Athletic Families, like the Scholarship Argument which may be reasonable, or may not be since working below level can interfere with grades and intellectual development, but needs to be thought about seriously.

This reminds me of Miraca Gross's perspective, that for PG kids, a single gradeskip is essentially equal to no accomidation at all. = Perhaps you needed more gradeskips to get the academics? I think I did. I'm thinking about the time that Ruff says a Level III or more kid needs to complete elementary school, which I can't remember right now, but seems to be really short.

I remember thinking that my son would have been better off locked in a closet with his video games all day while I worked, than in 2nd grade, and perhaps I should pull him from elementary school and let him watch cartoon until Middle School! ((Humor Alert - that's how I Felt, ok?)) Yes, this was before I found Internet Support, can you tell?

One thing I know is true, that whatever path I had taken as a child, I would have had plenty of complaints about it, because I'm critical by nature. Perhaps someday I will invent a way to experience every option and live every path at once, but for now, it is like being trapped on the Flat Planet of A Wrinkle in Time. But I have grown very fond of this odd Flat World,KWIM?

Here's some of Gross's work - be warned that the IQ scores she throws around are old SB-LM score, so you're kid's 140 is about like a 170, ok? As if we weren't confused enough! ((Total Trinity Seat of Pants Estimate Warning))

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10028.aspx

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi Dottie,

I'm glad your little one is who he is, but I'm afraid that some of the ones who need that first skip the most, have already had enough trama that it will be hard for them to be "thrilled."

Mine was more "resigned" than "on board." Again it's another IASM guidline that I think had to be twisted a bit to meet our son's needs. Children are complicated people, and what they show on the surface might not be in their best interests, or what they know "deep down."

Example: I don't want to leave my friends, I'll tutor them all in the afternoon so that we can all skip together.
or-
I don't need a gradeskip, I'll just bring a book with me wherever I go. ((Me: But some teachers consider that rude.))
or-
It's not fair that you want me to do extra work. I'm only going to do what the teacher assigned. ((Me: But most kids are learning how to learn by getting the opportunity to struggle through homework. You are missing all that!))

Finally became: I don't want to do a gradeskip, but I know it's the right thing to do.

A few weeks later, when the gradeskip was approved, he was so happy and excited. It did take time to get his feet under him socially and organizationally. But today he is very happy with his decision. And like the rest of us, on bad days he wishes he had taken some other path, but thankfully those are rare, and he always has the option of going back to his old school or old grade, with the same afterschooling deal.

Honestly, if DS has been willing to Afterschool 30 minutes a day with me, which was shorter than the amount of time his best friend took to do the regular homework, which took DS 90 seconds at most, I was content for him to stay with his current grade. That was the deal.

We also could have chosen from two good schools that would have been two hours of commuting per day.

Every situation is different. Every kid has a different personality, different level of giftedness, different needs. We need lots and lots of reasonable alternatives so that all of our kids can try a variety of approaches. The biggest problem with the Gifted Movement is that Parenting is so short and the Advocacy Process is so slow! By the time we change the world, our own kids will sometimes ((usually? often?)) be too old to get the benifit. And the world will have changed in so many other ways. I think that the best first step is to outline the options, have a good place to listen and be heard, collect lots of stories about "similar" situations, and get enough support to taylor individual solutions for individual children.

Wouldn't it be great to have 100s of other families who are doing exactly what you are doing so we can all feel normal? It would feel wonderful to many of us, myself included. But that isn't availible at this time, and that can be an advantage, because each family will have to come to their own, best possible decision.

((shrug)) and smile,
Trinity

I have to say that this thread has been really great! The personal experiences of all of you allows me to see so many different points of view and really gives me such a great insight to the pros and cons of skipping. I am soooo thrilled to have found a community like this. Thanks for your honest input everyone!

When did you know your kids were ready for a skip? Was it based on a teacher or schools recommendation or was it your choice?

When we had back to school night we were given the outline for the school year and a page on what requirements have to be met by the end of 2nd grade. I almost laughed when I saw the END of year requirements. dd had already exceeded those in 1st grade (and earlier) so I was a bit disappointed to see that even before school started she could pass. She's in the highest spelling group, and even that is way too easy, the highest reading and highest math. Now I will say that she is learning some new things this year which she hasn't been exposed to yet: social studies, geography and some science. But because she is an extremely quick learner she breezes through those as well. While they do accelerated work with her, nothing in school is challenging for her. It comes very easy. At the same time, she doesn't seem bored. She loves her teacher and is happy. So at what point do you start thinking that skipping would be needed or even beneficial?

I'll beg to differ on radical is the only way to go.... DS is doing quite well with one year and there is a light year's worth of difference that that one year has made so far.

I'll also caveat that with: this probably would not be true in any other school, but at our school, there is a light year's worth of difference between 2nd and 3rd and between 3rd and 4th.

Never make generalizations. Oops....

As for DS, the first skip (and only one so far) was at the school's insistence, although we didn't fight it. That skip put him in 2nd grade.

The next spring, a psych recommended a double skip. We looked at her reasons and also looked at the 3rd grade teacher and found that while the psych's reasons were sound, the 3rd grade teacher was something special. DS needed her. (She has taught a PG child before!) With poor organizational skills, DS has been very much challenged by moving to fourth grade this year with his class. (They have a different teacher for each subject. While the material may not be as challenging as I would like, he is finding it interesting despite the level.)

As for next year.... we might consider a skip next year if everyone agrees - but we'll see. I'm not sure I see it as needed right now.

Mary

P.S. The psych based her recommendation on the fact that DS was performing 4 years ahead of his grade when she tested him. If we moved him up 2 grades, he would still be two years ahead. That would ensure good grades, but it would also give some likelihood of challenge. Her point was to keep in mind that performing at grade level is basically like being a C student. To be an A student, you want to be 2 grade levels ahead.

Tammy,
With your school's clustering and compacting, there is reason to hope that your daughter will never need a gradeskip. Perhaps a subject or two "across grade" placment as needed, since if you do the Math, it's unlikely that a school with 75 kids will have another child at her level, unless there is a lot of older children in place, or a high backround socioeconomic status.

Her perfectionism is her built in alarm system. If she is getting worse, instead of better, you have to find someway to challenge her more, and more regularly. If she is complaining, that would be a tip off. For some it's stomach aches, refusal to go to school, or notes home from the teacher. Speaking of teachers, do whatever you can to be sure that her teachers "get her" getting into the school as a volunteer and sizing them up yourself if possible for the year to come.

You want to see her be engaged in some form of self challenge, at school or at home or in afterschool activities, so that when the first hint of mental sweat comes she doesn't think that she's lost her gift. I think that you'll "just know."

smiles,
Trinity

I know this came from an earlier post...I may have mistyped. She has about 75 kids in her grade alone. The entire school has 575 kids and its K through 6th grade.

Since she just got into GT and the fact that her teacher has started giving her some supplemental work to do at home, I think we'll wait and see how things go. She does seem very happy and so far has not talked of being bored so there's no plans to rock the boat...yet! I'll follow her lead. Thanks for the advice!

I think that was one of the big problems with my skip--no one followed my lead. I was happy with my class. The school was worried because I was so far ahead and that they would not be able to accomadate me (I think I may have had a pretty rigid teacher who wanted all her kids on the same page!). Anyway, I was asked if I wanted to skip after the decision was made and I agreed because I thought it sounded cool--it made me feel smart. Within a few weeks I regretted it (as soon as I had gotten up to the top of my new class) but it would have been too embarrassing to go back down. I was in a small town where everyone knew everyone and my skip was the "talk of the town."

So I suspect the skip was handled pretty sloppily. I don't oppose skipping in general, but I think it is good to think them through carefully and not just do them because you can (not that I am suggesting that that is what anyone here is doing). If DS ever was having problems that I thought a skip would solve I would consider one. He is just so happy and loyal to his class, and the school has been great about subject acceleration, it really hasn't been a problem.

After reading this thread, I am feeling even more strongly that perhaps we should try early entrance to first grade for our DS4 (almost 5). Depending on what kind of testing results we get, maybe even pursue second grade. Any advice? I think this situation is a little different because we are starting out with an awareness of his abilities before he is even eligible for elementary school.

How much is too much to skip for a child who hasn't even been to kindergarten?

We are considering early entrance mainly because we HAVE seen signs of withdrawal, boredom, disinterest, and a general unhappiness in school. Last year, DS was the youngest in a three year class of 3/4/5 yr. olds. It worked beautifully. This year is not working at all(as several of you have read in another thread.) He will say things like, "It's too hard. I'm too little. I can't do that. I'm only four." Then we sit down and read a book together at least on a first or second grade level. He has lost the "spark." I have a significant fear that if we do not find an appropriate environment, the snowball will just continue to grow.

Granted, this is just preschool we are talking about. But if DS is truly a Ruf Level 4, give or take a little, then I'd rather start the skipping process early and get it over with for now. Of course, that's how I feel about this coming school year. High school?! OH MY GOSH. I'm glad we have awhile to wait.

This forum is so fabulous. I am eternally grateful to have found such a group.

Allison

Although we are not skipping our son, now that he is in middle school, he has a lot of freedom in the classes he is taking. So he is subject accelerated 3 years in math. As the number of subjects he is accelerated in increases, he will be, de facto, accelerated. Rather than officially skip, I have figured that when he gets way ahead that he can take a year off. We have spoken of living abroad for a year or having him do an foreign exchange program or live near relatives who run a family business, giving DS a chance to apprentice in the business. He is excited about all those possibilities.

[quote=Dottie
But halfway into 1st I realized we were only just getting started!

[/quote]

Oh...I'm smiling...just hoping that I can wrap my brain around all that is happening so quickly. I know you are right. Maybe I'm in a warm and fuzzy state of denial right now. It seems that maybe I've been in this "well, what we're doing seems to be working" state of denial for about 1.5 years now! But it IS really exciting to think about what the future may hold. I'm sure the journey will be an interesting one, whatever happens.

My husband and I had a long discussion last night about skipping, what I'm finding the research shows, etc.

He has some significant concerns. He agrees that we need to really watch DS to make sure his little "spark" returns (as far as school is concerned, anyway. I must stress what a joyful and confident child he is when he's not at school). He acknowledges that early entrance/skipping may be something we need to seriously consider.

But then he started talking about how it feels (or maybe how it felt for him) to be a little boy at school who, perhaps, isn't as big as the other kids. He's very worried that he'll always be chosen last for the kickball teams, or that he'll always be left out/made fun of, etc. for being smaller than the others. (Assuming he will be smaller, heehee, if we let him skip.) He made a really big deal of it all. Of course I've considered these things. But I also think it's important to teach DS that he IS different, and that it is OKAY. I must stress that we are NOT parents who will push our son into any specific sport/club/interest. We believe it is important to provide him with opportunities, if he desires, and we will help to foster any passion or even remote interest in a wide variety of topics. DS is already small for his age. He was a premie and hasn't "caught up" yet. He might not catch up to be an "average" size at all. So this just adds to my husband's concerns. His point is this: if DS is hanging his head all day because of how he feels about being left out/too small/too different...can he really focus on the academic material, anyway?

*sigh*

This is all very complicated. We might be thinking way too far ahead.

How do you balance these very real social issues with the desire to keep your kid interested in learning by skipping?

And I always like to point out that an unhappy, bored, frustrated kid isn't likely to make friends easily or get picked early for kickball teams either. Finding a "good enough" educational solution often makes the social thing work out, simply because the kid feels happier.

Steering him toward sports like baseball (as you're doing) or soccer where size isn't as much of an issue is probably smart. If he's likely to be small regardless of grade, he's probably not going to be playing football or basketball anyway, so skipping him may not matter as much as you fear it might.

Beyond that, our biggest reason--rightly or wrongly--for not sticking with the public school and pushing for multiple grade skips is sports. I'd rather find other ways to help our DS to get what he needs at this point, since sports matter to him. So I know where you're coming from.

It's all so much to think about, isn't it!? Sometimes I feel like my head will explode! We do the best we can, and remember that you could always de-accelerate (decelerate? deccelerate? How's that spelled?) him if you need to. Kids are adaptable. And thank heaven for that!

Acs,
That sounds wonderful! In many ways subject accelerations are preferable to full grade skips, and lots of kids need both. Gap year plans are wonderful too.
Smiles,
Trinity

Hi Allison,

DHs can have great insight into the social scene for boys. I learned from my DH that there is a pecking order, and size and skills do matter. ((Think Napoleon Dynamite: "Girls like boys with Skills.))

I'm guessing that you come from a part of the country where sports competitions matter, and when that happens you will get plenty of red-shirting for sports, in other words - if he's little compared to his age peers, you are kind of off the hook asking for skips, because he's going to have his size as a strike against him even if you hold him back.

Individual sports, age grouped sports, and marital arts are all ways to give boys status and moxie, which will never fully the place of size, but will certianly help. We live in a totally unfair society, that judges men on size, particularly in the early years (Later income eclipses size, yes?) But a child who is at peace with themselves, has the love of his parents, has reasonable social skills, and some academic skills, and maybe a great imagination, or enclyclopedic knowledge of boy-esoterica, can find a way to find a comfortable place in the pecking order.

In a way, a small grade-skipped kid is better off that a small ungradeskipped kid. I don't really think that the size stigma is dose-dependent, and older boys find a brainy shrimp who pays them homage more palatable than a hulking grade-skipped brainiac who challenges their status. A small unskipped kid is just small, unless he's fast, or especially good at something. Dottie's kid is third born and knows how to not rock the boat of older, higher status kids, but my tall, loud, only child wants to lead, thinks that all should agree. He does better socially with boys who are 2-3 years older and more self-confident than he does with boys who are 1-1.5 years older, and less secure.

Ask you DH lots and lots about his own experiences as a small, medium and large boy. I have found a whole, previously uninteresting world of status while looking through my DS's eyes. It reminds me a bit of the joke about how the President must be popular with many many people, while the Vice-President must only be popular with one (the President.) As far as social rank went, I only was concerned with the few friends of my heart, or the current boyfriend, while my DH grew up trying to please everyone.

For me growing up, being overly concerned with status was a luxury that I just couldn't afford.

I hope this helps. My hunch is that your son has already shown that he is quite sensitive to being educationally malnourished.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

As a grade-skipped child and a parent who is now contemplating grade-skipping a child, I can honestly say that this is never an easy decision!

My own grade skip was the best thing that could have happened to me. I was in a first/second grade split class for first grade, and was doing all the second grade work. I moved to second grade -- and after a week they realized I needed something more. I was moved up to third grade and did fine there -- made friends, no problems. It may have been easier for me because many of the third graders were familiar with me from my first/second split class.

I never had any problems with being the "younger kid." No, I didn't drive until my junior year was almost over -- people came and picked me up! I started dating at 14/almost 15, which was right for me. I wasn't teased for being young (I was teased for other things, like most children are at some point!). I couldn't drink (legally) until my senior year of college was almost over (March birthday). Of course, I'm a girl, and some people think feel that sex makes a difference in the decision to grade skip.

Which brings me to my own ds ... 5 years old and newly identified PG. The psychologist who did his testing (experienced with gifted children) recommended that we do a grade skip now with further acceleration in reading and math.

When I look at the "social issues" for boys ... I'm not that impressed. I think being teased has less to do with size or sports ability than it does to do with personality and vulnerability -- issues that would likely be there if the child were grade skipped or not. I know plenty of tiny adult men who were *not* teased as children. And plenty of normal-sized adult men who *were*. It seems to have more to do with confidence and humor and general personality and a whole host of other issues; being small just give the bully an easy in. This is such a personal issue that I think it is reckless to say, "Smaller boys will get teased in school; therefore, I will not skip my child." And this is an issue to me; I am 5'3" and ds's dad is 5'7", so our ds will not be big in his group whether we skip him or not.

For sports, there are plenty of sports options outside of school. There are tons of private club sports out there. My ex-h played on a selective soccer team right through high school, choosing to play with this select team over joining his school team (he'd have been a shoo-in).

My two cents as a newbie. :-)

Welcome Mia,

I smiled when I read what you wrote about teasing being more about personality and vulnerability than size. I think this is so true. The son of my good friend is the tallest in his grade (probably even the next grade, too) and seems to get teased all the time. I think it's because clearly teasing gets to him, and then it's a domino effect.

My son, who is a year or two behind his classmates in age, hasn't had the adolescent growth spurt yet (he's shorter and thinner than the others), but exudes confidence. I've seen him get teased, his face expressionless, and then he moves on down the hall--almost as though he has just tolerated an "inferior human interaction". The teaser soon finds it's no fun to tease him.

I keep thinking back to "Genius Denied" when I think about grade skipping. Grade placement should be where the child fits in, both academically and to some extent socially, but "every child deserves an appropriate education". Grade divisions should be viewed as imaginary lines, with the idea of "does the child fit here?". All of my kids have said, "I am so glad I skipped", when they see the work level and maturity of the kids a grade behind. Would they do that if they were skipped again? Probably, and it might happen at some point, but if they can be accommodated presently, then the fit is adequate.

I know -- isn't the "grade skip" search great? This is *exactly* the discussion I was looking for! I started an almost identical one on my other board last night before I found this one.

As for older children looking back -- I have a PG cousin who was not grade skipped. And this is one of those obviously gifted children -- the kind who, when asked to name a pot on a vocabulary test at age three, said that the picture was of "vaporized water" -- he was looking at the steam coming out the top! His parents chose to do a lot of enrichment and subject acceleration with him rather than skip him full grades. I've been speaking with his mother -- my aunt -- a lot over the last week and he's told her that he *wishes* they'd just skipped him the grades. He said that most of the older children -- much older, in many of his classes -- sort of took him under their wing and wanted to guide him, and he wished that he's been able to move up altogether rather than do the radical single-subject acceleration. I've been thinking about that a lot lately as we've begun to seriously consider a skip for our Benjy.

But I suppose that brings up another question entirely -- for the child who is truly academically ready, emotionally secure and fairly confident, is a two-grade or more grade skip more socially appropriate than a one-grade skip? Do you think it's easier socially to be the "really REALLY smart one who skipped two grades" or the "really smart one who skipped a grade"?

I don't know the answer to that question. I really can see arguments both ways.

I think Dottie's son skipped several grades at once--right, Dottie? Maybe she can tell you her feelings.

For me, I wish we had skipped more at once so we wouldn't have to agonize over it now. Especially if they're in elementary school and have mastered those topics, I'd rather them get into
"meatier" work earlier. At the time however, my kids dictated single grade only. Now I think my oldest regrets not doing more because it seems harder to skip HS credit/prerequisite structure...at least here. If you son's willing--definitely give it some thought!

This issue is the main reason why we homeschool. Our child would require radical grade skipping (depending on the subject, 5-8 grade levels). My just-turned-8yo would spend his days at the local high school; that is the best accommodation our school district could provide. Private schools would do even less, since they aren't bound to any of our state's GIEP laws. Facing those options, homeschooling is a no-brainer.

FWIW, I always think of the multiple single-year skips as a way for the child to learn two years worth of material in one. Skipping two years at once is just about being ahead. But remember that older doesn't mean faster. The child will still be getting material at the same pace as everyone else. I think that's the reason multiple grade-skips are recommended.

I guess that applies to multiple 2+ year grade-skips, too. The child just learns 3 or more years of material in one year...

The other problem that can arise with grade-skipping, even radical grade-skipping, is the issue of pacing.

For example, my kid could attend a high school Algebra course this year. But it will likely only take him half the time to learn the entire courseload of material. He will *want* to progress forward after that. Because we homeschool, he can still learn high school Algebra, but at his own pace. If he wants to do 2 or 3 lessons per day for a month, and then slow down to 1 lesson per day, that's fine. If he blows through 4 lessons on a rainy weekend, because he wants to do it, that's fine, too. If he was grade-skipped, he would still need to stay at the same pace with his class.

I know that no school is going to provide the ideal education for every child, and I do see the value in compromising. If I had to work outside the home, I'd definitely be doing more advocating for my kid within the public school system. Luckily, for now, we can afford for me to not work in order to homeschool.

I'm home schooling, too, and loving it for many of the same reasons as you, Esperanza. Certainly it saved DS from a truly horrendous first grade year this year!

But home schooling has its own drawbacks as well--having to work harder to get DS social time, his getting instruction and discipline almost exclusively from me, less time for me to spend with my younger child, not getting time to finish my own projects, etc.

I'm a firm believer that every potention schooling solution is a trade-off: give up something (money, time, or individualized education) and get something else. It's all about the specific priorities that each family has chosen. We've certainly yet to find an easy answer for our situation that solves all our problems! For many people, given the constraints of their lives and schools, the best available option is multiple grade skips. Heck, if homeschooling and a local private ($$$) gifted school don't work for us for next year for one reason or another, pushing for grade skips is probably what we'll do.

But I'm hoping one of the other options will work. I REALLY don't feel like advocating for DS to get what he needs. It's just too depressing and exhausting, and I'm REALLY bad at it!

(And DS is only 6! I swear, I don't know how those of you with older kids have dealt with the advocacy stuff for so long. I admire you! I wish I were better at it.)

I wish that homeschooling were an option for us ... it's just not. We work and cannot afford to homeschool at this point, though that may change. Also, I'm just not sure that homeschool is the best option for my Benjy; he's *very* social and loves to be around children. But I so respect those of you who do homeschool! I wish we could do it because it seems like a great solution for kids like ours.

As for radical grade acceleration in the schools ... I agree that a "one year at a time" is probably the best route. However, I'm hesitating at a grade skip now, or even next year; yes, he'd be in first grade, but his very lowest test result put him at the end of first grade right now, and all the others are mid-second grade and up with no formal instruction at home whatsoever. So he'd be in first grade, doing the first grade curriculum at a standard first grade pace -- which really isn't what he needs. How is that any better than kindergarten, really, given that he has that knowledge mastered already and can pick up new information extremely quickly?

I'm just worried about my little guy's long-term happiness! He's my only child ... I've thought lately how much *easier* it would be if he were not so advanced! Of course I'm happy and proud of him, but man -- this opens up a whole new can of worms, doesn't it?

Pacing, I think, is key when working with these kids -- and teachers aren't typically keen, I've found, on having a lesson plan specifically for one child, particularly if the child is already ahead!

Mia,
The advantage of a single gradeskip is that he gets to hang with kids who are more likely to get his jokes. The material may at least reach the level of "edutainment" if not challenge. A disadvantage can be more paperwork and no more challenge. An advantage can be that the child is moved to a mental catagory of "we need to be flexible with this one, he's different," so permission may be granted to pile subject accelerations, independent study or online classes as substitutions. It seems hopeless, but every little bit might really help. I remember when a early admission to the Math Club, 30 minutes once every 2 weeks made a major difference in my son's life. Is that sad or what?

Welcome and Best Wishes,
Trinity

"Mia, when you say "end of first grade", what are you basing that on? If you are using GE's, then it's really not that unusual for a kid to start 1st grade with a GE considerably higher than 2.0. If you are talking about mastery of 1st grade material though (85th or so plus percentile on 1st grade material), then the child would be ill-placed. But those are two very different scenarios. "

Dottie -- I'm talking about his WIAT grade equivalent in spelling -- it was 1.8. So no, it's not particularly unusual, and you're right -- I misspoke about him having "mastered" that material. I should have said that he's got a good head start on it for a kindergartner. That was his lowest score.

I guess my point is, for children who pick up information quickly and efficiently, does a one-year grade skip make a difference in the long run in the absence of an on-going acclerated curriculum?

Mia - it's a great question. The answer is that sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't, but if it hurts, and the child needed it, you can add more, and if it hurts, and it is truly "too much" you can switch to another school and decelerate, or do a year of homeschooling and decelerate. If sports, scholarships or siblings aren't in the picture, and the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual has been satisfied, and the child isn't happy/learning to learn, then from what I've seen, an early skip is a nescessary, but not nescessarily sufficient, thing.

What worries me, is reading books, such as "Picky Parents Guide" that say, "DON'T GRADE SKIP YOUR CHILD - unless they are really unusual, such as the top 98%" and I think, "top 98%?" If only my kid was that 'usual.'

Smiles,
Trinity

I had to LOL at that, Trinity! I'm right there with you -- a 98 percentile kid would be -- well, if not a walk in the park, at least much easier to handle, educationally speaking! (Of course every child has their own unique issues, but with most kids, the decision on whether to accelerate isn't one of them.)

LOL, this is Mia-time three days a week -- I'm an RN and I work nights, so this is great!

Dottie -- Agreed, and of course we'd rather that his scores were a little more evenly distributed across the board, at whatever level that might be; it's infinitely harder to accomodate a child with these scores that are all over the place! However, if we do decide to skip him, I'm certain that he'll be able to easily keep pace with the his new grade level with the same instruction they're receiving -- especially as the only skip we're considering now is a single grade.

Just want to add, this board is GREAT! I'm so happy to have found it. :-D

Hi Dottie,

I hope that my posts about homeschooling versus traditional schooling didn't set off your defensive response. It wasn't my intention at all. I acknowledge that homeschooling isn't the be-all, end-all, either. We have definitely made many sacrifices to do it, and it STILL isn't perfect. I was just responding to the topic of grad-skipping, and how it would have negatively impacted our son. We know that we probably won't homeschool forever, as my ability to actually teach him stuff is coming to an end soon. That makes me nervous, because we don't yet have a good plan for what to do next.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that, and to tell you that I think all of us are doing the best job for our kids and families, who have completely different needs (both academic, financial and social). It's wonderful to see parents with the drive to consciously analyze options and find the best choice when that decision is so hard.

Mia wrote:

"When I look at the "social issues" for boys ... I'm not that impressed. I think being teased has less to do with size or sports ability than it does to do with personality and vulnerability -- issues that would likely be there if the child were grade skipped or not. I know plenty of tiny adult men who were *not* teased as children."

You are exactly right! And I am so thrilled that, right now anyway, we have a confident and joyful little boy. I have pulled him out of the Montessori school, with his full blessing. Today he went to Mother's Day Out at our church, which is held two days a week for about 5 hours. It was a lot of fun, and he made some new friends. He walked right into the room of strangers this morning and said, "Hi, Guys! Can I play?" Several of the other 4 yr. olds just sort of looked at him, but he sat down and joined in on the fun.

I just wanted to make the point that there are are so many facets to this discussion, and I really want my husband to feel that his voice will be heard. He is so open to all of the new things we are discovering about the PG world. And I should stress that we are NOT the kind of parents to push DS into sports. That's really not a concern of ours at this point. We will follow his lead in that department. But I do want to acknowledge some of DH's concerns. Several of you have discussed what can make a happy child withdraw, though. You make an excellent point when it comes to the social aspect of skipping:

"And I always like to point out that an unhappy, bored, frustrated kid isn't likely to make friends easily or get picked early for kickball teams either. Finding a "good enough" educational solution often makes the social thing work out, simply because the kid feels happier." - Kriston

This is exactly what we were dealing with at DS's former school. I am already starting to see a difference in his attitude toward learning, just in the few weeks that we've started home schooling.

Which brings me to another question:

Do any of you recommend a home school curriculum that you really love? (DS is four. He will be eligible for kindergarten in the fall.)

Feel free to point me to another forum/thread. There are so many different threads that I thought I might ask a few kindred spirits first.

Thanks again and again for your involvement,
Allison

Before you dive into curriculum, I'd recommend that you do some research about 1) the regulations for home schooling in your state, and 2) what kind of home schooling you want to practice. The first is a legal necessity, at least by the time your son is 6. The second is a practical matter to help you choose from the astonishing amount of material that's out there. There are LOTS of types of home schooling! Personally, I'm going with the "eclectic" approach because it pretty much means we can do whatever DS6 and I want to do in whatever form works best.

I like Singapore Math (www.singaporemath.com) and the "What Your Xth Grader Needs to Know" series by E.D. Hirsch, Jr. (I bought several years' worth, just to be sure I covered all the basics, but really, checking them out of the library would probably have been enough...) For pretty much all the other subjects besides math, we raid the library and follow DS's interests wherever they take us. (Our library even lets home schoolers get an "educator" card, so we can keep the books for a lot longer without fines.) And BTW, we don't try to do every subject every day, or even once per week. I figure we just need to hit all the major subjects by the end of the year and it will all balance out. And after all, the danger isn't that our kids will go too slowly or fall behind, really, is it? Mainly I'm having trouble keeping enough material on hand because he's going through it so fast!

I've found GREAT help and reassurance in "Creative Home Schooling: A Resource Guide for Smart Families" by Lisa Rivero. That one is worth buying, in my opinion!

Otherwise, probably the two best pieces of advice anyone gave me were to find an active home schoolers association and not to buy a bunch of curriculum right away. The benefits of joining a group are probably self-evident--social connections, field trips, contacts you couldn't find alone, classes like art, P.E., foreign languages, etc. As for the curriculum, much of what you'd buy at first is going to be wrong for your child, and you can waste a lot of money! Ease into it. Use the library. Figure out what suits you both. Then plunk down the cash as necessary.

I hope this helps!

Hi Allison,
I've never homeschooled,but it seems to me that setting up policy is as important as curriculum. After all, with curriculum, you are mostly, if not entirely going to follow your child's interests, perhaps occasionally linking the practice of a difficult skill to an iterest. You local school district probably has something like a "scope and sequence" posted on an internet site somewhere. That can be a good reference point to keep in mind.

I've heard praise for Singaport Math and Handwriting without tears over and over again. You may want to read up on books about "unschooling" which is all about following your child's lead.

But educational policy - that's the part I never hear about. I weighed HSing very carfully last year. I concluded that for us, I would have to lock up the TV, or throw it away, remove all the computer games so that "Typing Practice" seemed like great fun, (compared to nothing) and institue a P.E. requirement. I would defintly include household management on the curriculum (chores)

Back when DS11 was 6, and we were walking around in the dark, being told that there was something wrong with him, we got him a Gameboy, so that he could be like the other boys. It did help socialize him, but it also acustomed him to instant gratification. It was the best decision we could make at the time, give the information at hand, but I believe that it was too high a price for fitting in a bit.

So I've never seen an article about setting up policies for homeschooling, but I would encourage you to think hard about how much "mindless entertainment" under what circumstances you and your DH will allow. What do you want your day to be like? How much of your son's day will be about following his interests and how much about contributing to the family and others? I'd love to hear about what the real HSers say about this.

Smiles,
Trinity

You're right that it can be a chore to keep the TV turned off, Trinity. (Though we already have an "edu-tainment only" policy in place, so that helps. If it's not on PBS or Noggin or the Discovery or Science channels, we don't watch it.) But I'd have to say that part is not as hard as I thought it would be. DS6 and I both know we have a responsibility here, and we both really try to live up to it. We usually keep the TV off until work I done. If we take a TV break (usually only done when I have something I need to do, ala the "electric babysitter"...), then it's never more than one 30-minute show. Then it's back to work.

I've tried to keep my policies as simple as I can. Here's my list, in full:

*read fiction of his choice for 15 min. per day,
*read nonfiction of his choice for 15 min. per day (though I will try to steer him a bit more as the year goes on so that we cover all required subjects by year's end),
*be read to by an adult for 15 minutes per day (usually before bed),
*do a math lesson every day,
*write two lines of handwriting of his choice every day,
*do something he loves every day (This was Dr. Amend's suggestion, and I love it!),
*tidy up for 25 minutes per day. (You're right, Trinity, that this last part is VITAL to family sanity!)

Exceptional days are days with field trips, art or P.E. class, or a social gathering. Since these things are important, too, and there are only so many hours in a day, we usually let school slide a bit on those days. Otherwise, I'm as firm about hitting all these points as seems reasonable.

Actually, my bigger problem is not the TV, but how much of the creative but only marginally educational activities to allow. If he's building transformers out of tangram pieces, does that count as school? What about making cars out of clay? Or creating his own "I Spy" book with crayons? Frankly, a lot of his day is devoted to projects like these. I usually just chalk them up under "doing something he loves" and let it go provided he's done his reading, writing and math. I'm just not sure he's learning a whole lot in those times. Sometimes I feel I should be a bit more rigorous, kwim?

But as my wise DH said, "If you handed DS6 a developmentally appropriate book to read for 30 min., then sent him out to play the whole rest of the day, he'd get more out of it than he was getting from where he was." The fact that this is true gets me over many of my worries. HSing may not be perfect, and I KNOW I'm not the perfect teacher (!!!), but I also know DS6 is better off than he was at the start of the school year in that particular public school classroom.

Asking what you want your day to be like is really key, Trinity. You're spot-on there! I chose to be as laid back as I could be without feeling like I was shirking my duty to him. Happily, DS6 is interested in virtually everything, so I don't have to push him to learn. If I did, I think he'd go back to traditional school. That's just not the way I want our family life to be.

Realizing that it's a learning process is key, too. I think you really have to let go of perfectionism if you're going to hime school. It's a system that will evolve--must evolve!--as you and your son go along. In fact, I warned DS6 before we even pulled him out of school that I would have to learn what worked and what didn't; I told him it would take time and I would surely make mistakes. But, I told him, we are a team in this home schooling endeavor, and he's going to have to communicate with me about what's working and what isn't, and he'd have to be patient with me as we figure it out together. That really helped, I think, to start us off on the right foot and to give us license to experiment a little.

It helps to get out of the house, too. We do a lot of our work during the 3-afternoons-per-week that DS3 is at preschool in our church. We just stay in one of the Sunday school rooms and get lots of intensive work done without interruption or temptation to play.

I'm going on and on. Sorry. But I think you're asking great questions, Trinity! They're just exactly the right ones to ask!

Thanks Kriston! Well done! You didnt' mention "computer games - video games - gameboy - Internet" If you feel comfortable, how do you negotiate that?

To me, the kinds of experiences your DS sets up for himself with the Tantagrams and Clay are exactly what "school" should be about. I had a very hard time enticing my DS to do any of that after the age of 2.5 when he discovered computer games. YMMV, but I applaud you.

Maybe I'm a Romantic, but I really believe that most children without open access to the worst TV and Videogames will naturally gravitate to the types of activites that they need to develop properly, particularly at age 4-9. I think that's the difference between hothousing and homeschooling.

Smiles,
Trinity

You can't tell? Because I'm ALWAYS on the computer, naturally! The poor kids can't get to it! LOL!

We own two computers, but only one is hooked up to the Internet. That helps. And I really am on the computer more often than not when we're not doing school work. (Bad!)

We don't own a gameboy or other video game system, so that's easy...for now. When we get to the "Everyone has a gameboy but me" thing, I know it will become more of a challenge. Now, when the kids do play games on the computer, it's usually "I Spy" software, the games on the Hot Wheels website, or Webkinz. None seems too bad for them. It's all of the nonviolent make/build/do style of game. I figure it's about equal to the kind of TV we allow them to watch. Meh. But they only play for maybe an hour a week.

There will come a day when I'll be in trouble, because my rules for them about TV and computer do not apply to me. I rely very heavily on TV, computer games, and the Internet for my personal entertainment, mainly because they're more interruptable than my writing or reading books and more fun than housework. (Ha!) But one of these days, I fully expect the kids to say, "How come you get to watch junk TV and play on the computer so much and we don't?" I don't have a good answer for that!


Nah, I don't deserve applause. It's the path of least resistance for me, really. The clay and tangrams and legos and such are all independent play that don't require my attention. Video games and TV do require it, at least some of it. Really, I'm mostly just a lazy person at heart.

I certainly don't want to hold myself up as some kind of example parent or anything. I'm SOOOOOO not that! What I am is concerned to make learning fun and easy on all of us. Most days I go to bed feeling like I should have done more than I did for my DSs. But I remind myself of a saying we had in grad school: "You can never do enough. You can always do more. But at some point you really have to decide to stop for the day." Home schooling is much the same. Some days are learning whirlwinds. Some days are yawn-worthy. But if learning is mostly fun for him and if I feel we're mostly being responsible, then I'm okay with stopping for the day, even if we could have done more. <shrug>

Certainly we're not hothousing. Quite the opposite, if anything! Keyword: lazy mom!

Trinity,

Our policy is that on weekdays the kids are permitted up to an hour of "screen time" AFTER chores and schoolwork. We count tv, computer time, gamecube, and gameboy all the same. If a friend is here for a lengthy playdate, I may allow an extra half hour of electronic stupor. This works for us and seems to fit in pretty well with the policies of the families we are closest to, so there isn't a lot of argument about the rules being unfair. We rarely spend a whole day at home, but if we happen to be here for a long rainy day, we might watch an educational dvd or some cartoons.

Kriston,

The lines between work and play do get quite fuzzy at times, but that's one of the really cool aspects of homeschooling. My seven year old has been spending hours drawing "halfbloods" from the Percy Jackson series, and I do count it as art, but I only allow her to do it after the core academics are completed. This year is the most structured we've been, and we cover 3-4 of these core subjects a day. The rest is all gravy, as far as I'm concerned! My long term objective is to see my kids as happy lifelong learners, and not to fast track them through school.

Love it, Kriston. *Love* it. If I didn't need to work, that is exactly what I would love to do -- with some involvement with a local homeschool group for social outings. Oh, I wish we could do that!

The thing that always worried me about my ability to homeschool is that I really tend to hover. For us school forces me to "cut the cord." Once I drop him off, he has to figure things out for himself and make his way in the world and learn from his mistakes.

When I am around, I find that I minimize his risks and try to soften his consequences, not in a big way, but way more than his school teachers do. They aren't harsh, but with 30 kids to manage, they just aren't as big a push-over as I can be. And the result is that DS is learning to make mistakes, cope with the consequences and then come up with a plan to prevent the situation from happening again--all without me. I see his confidence grow each year. For us, this has been a big plus for public school. In part, this works because DS *likes* public school; it would be quite different if he hated it and shut down when he was there!

I know many confident, independent HS students so obviously HS kids can learn this, but I doubt my ability to provide it. I'm curious to find out how the homeschool families provide this "trying-their-wings" experiences for your kids.

For me, part of the "wing-trying" comes out of my reminding myself that I'm raising future adults, not children. It becomes easier for me to do things in such a way to build resiliance when I keep in mind the main goal of raising our kids is to develop healthy, productive adults.

But then... I am not a pushover. I believe very strongly that if kids never hear a "no" that you enforce, then they never believe you mean it when you tell them that you love them either--you're just viewed as undependable. I firmly believe that if you say what you mean and mean what you say, kids respond with better behavior and stronger growth.

And...I am not and never have been a helicopter parent. I always half-joke that I practice "benign neglect" when it comes to parenting. I have always been the parent at the park who reads or talks to another parent rather than hovering where the kids are. I'm the mom who assumes that the kids are probably okay and not kidnapped by monsters even if they're out of my sight for a few minutes. My kids work out their own arguments at ages 3 and 6. (Does the 3yo sometimes get the raw end of the deal? Sure. But he also stands up for himself a lot more than many second kids I see. And the 6yo gives up a lot more than you'd think because he knows that things will be much worse if I have to intervene!)

I think giving kids opportunities to make mistakes has a lot more to do with the parents' state of mind than anything else, really. In fact, if you approach HSing with encouraging independence as one of your goals, it's quite easy to do. The kids have a lot fewer opportunities to follow the herd and a lot more chances to work independently in HS than in public school, IMHO.

Also, I find that being with my DS pretty nearly all day every day has really changed the nature of our relationship, not to mention his attitude. I've found that it's pretty easy to say "Go play!" when you're together so much. I feel much less need to micromanage his time than I used to, when we had all the pressure to get (dumb!) homework done before dinner, just at the time when he was at his most worn out and cranky. Now I let him decide when he wants to do things, and if they don't get done, there are natural consequences: no time to play, no TV time, etc. He definitely takes more responsibility for himself and his choices--and even for his education!--than he did before HSing!

With all that said, though, I think you do have to know yourself and your weaknesses to be effective at HSing. If you tend to hover, I think you're right that it could be hard to break yourself of the habit, regardless of how much time you spend together. And it can be very hard to be both mom and teacher. I've had to learn that it's necessary sometimes to stop teaching and just *be* together. I think it would be even harder for me to learn that balance if I tended to hover.

For whatever that's worth...

I see the tendency to micromanage in both parents of schooled and homeschooled children. As an example, a mother who was overinvested in her child's progress at school is now enmeshed with his home education experience. The new book, A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children has a great chapter on overidentification with the gifted child, enmeshment, etc. I think people who tend to be very controlling are going to present that way in just about any situation.

I don't mean to imply that anyone HERE is this way, the example I have given is an extreme one. It is just helpful for making my point.

This was a great question, and a very valid concern. My own kids are 2e and they have plenty of ways in which they must struggle.

take care-

Thanks Lorel and Kriston for your thoughts.

I know what you mean, Kriston, about the annoying homework assignments that need to be done and I do suspect that some of my hovering come from those--we argue a bit about them. I had plenty of those assignmentss as a gifted kid, myself, and I dealt with them by getting them over as quickly as possible. It makes me nuts to watch him dilly dally when he could have finished it and be playing by now! and what starts out as encouragement turns into hovering because I have trouble relaxing until it is done. I see what you are saying--if the assingments were better suited to DS (which they would be if I assigned them), he might "require" less hovering.

And, Lorel, I agree that kids that are a bad fit for the school system (like your 2e's) get plenty of opportunities to struggle. They really don't need a school that is setting them up to fail by not meeting any of their needs. There is a cavernous difference between struggling then eventually succeeding and just plain failing.

I'll give you guys an example of something that just happened this weekend, though, as something that the school did for me. I really appreciated getting to watch DS handle this one on his own. DS12 had a hefty assignment for his high school math class that was due this morning. DS proudly announced on Saturday that he had gotten it done. I cheered. Then last night about 10 (bedtime) he remembered that he had to forgotten to do another part of the assignment. "Oops, I said, that's too bad. I'm tuckered out so I'm just going to go to bed and let you deal with that. I'll see you in the morning." I think it took him about half an hour more to finish the assignment and he got himself to bed. He had a little trouble getting up this morning, but he did it. The great thing for me was that since the assigner was a third party, DS didn't see any point in negotiating with me (he is a great negotiator, often with great points and I find it hard to shut that down when I need to)so he didn't waste any breath on me and just got to work. Also, since I didn't assign it, I couldn't monitor how much was done. I didn't check on Saturday to see if he was *really* done, since I didn't know what "done" was. If I had had the power to change this situation, I might have caved and told him that he could just have done it in the morning, but since it was all out of my control, DS just got to work and I went to bed. Had I had any power, we might still be discussing (arguing) this. I'm glad to share this aspect of parenting with someone else.

Yup. That's the kind of thing I do miss.

But, then again, I'm not entirely opposed to fostering a talent for negotiation, provided that a failure to get his/her way doesn't lead to tantrums and such misbehavior. Knowing how to negotiate is a key skill, one that I think is utterly vital in human interactions. Certainly there are times when it's appropriate for a parent or teacher to be persuaded...and times when it's not at all. I do my best to distinguish between the two and hold the line when I should.

Also, I'm not solely responsible for holding the line. He has a football coach, an art teacher, P.E. teacher, etc. who are in charge of him at various times. That helps, too.

But I think you're right that appropriate assignments make it a lot easier to be more hands-off. I tend to only hover when I've given him something that I fear will be too hard for him. Getting the challenge level right can be difficult, but I think that's key to keeping myself from hovering.

But it's not as hard as I thought it would be to let him do his thing. FWIW, I'm not feeling like I'm being too controlling. In fact, he just finished cleaning his room all by himself...because he wanted to do it alone! That tells me we're doing something right. He NEVER cleaned alone when he was in a traditional school setting! I had to stand on him to get anything done! Now he's much more independent. But he's also a kid who has always liked the concept of independence, at least in theory. Is home schooling helping? Dunno. But I certainly don't think it's hurting.

I'm babbling now. My point was basically just that it's not as hard as I thought it would be to foster independence (in fact, it might actually be easier and more effective in our particular situation, though YMMV), and that allowing/encouraging a child's negotiation skill doesn't seem like a bad idea to me in the right contexts.