What do you do when your child won't see a counselor but can't deal with school? Are you enabling them if you accommodate by keeping them at home for Distributed Learning or unschooling?

DS is 13. Last year was rough. This year, new high school (excellent program - perfect for gifted kids - rigorous, project based learning, fun, high tech, field trips etc.) but can't deal with it.

So disheartened.

Thank you for your comment Portia.

That sounds like great advice.

What kind of techniques did your counselor use - if I may ask?

Yes, it is more difficult when they're older and just flat out say no. His comment is why would I talk to a stranger about my problems.

Also, when he's feeling anxious/threatened he becomes defiant. He's usually a fairly sunny cooperative person. Natural I suppose. If I felt threatened or forced to do something that made me feel unsafe I would be defiant too.

So, allowing him to pull back and focus on learning instead of also having to deal with all the other things that freak him out might be a good first step.

Has anyone else been through this?

I have not been through this, so take this idea with a grain of salt or two.

Has he ever been to a counselor? I wonder if you called a reputable practice and explained the situation (including his refusing to go see a counselor), if they would have advice for you. I am guessing that it is not unheard of for someone to not want to go...

As for talking to him about going, does he understand that his approach (anxiety driven) is going to continue to keep him from doing things he might otherwise absolutely love until he learns some new techniques for managing it (i.e. what the stranger knows and can help him know too)?

Hi Connecting Dots. Thanks for your comment.

I've actually just made an appointment with our doctor to get a referral to a local anxiety counselor that I've heard is really good with this issue. I will see him myself and see what I can do with his guidance and hopefully try to get my DS to go.

He, my DS, isn't really rational when it comes to this topic. There is too much emotion behind it so he doesn't seem to think clearly about it.

Great ideas above.

However, personally I'd rephrase that as he won't see a counselor... yet. I'd accept that for now and validate his concerns about talking to a stranger, while also providing him with feedback that the option is open, and when he feels the time is right, he could help pick a counselor which seems like a comfortable "fit".

Meanwhile, might a book be of help... if he reads and sees himself in some of scenarios (but not others), possibly he may begin to discuss this with you, giving you the opportunity to help where you can (and suggest an expert where you cannot).

My guess (and this is just a guess) is that he is compensating for something, and unable to keep compensating well and at the same time keep up with the barrage of new information and stimulus around him in the school setting.

Kids can max out their ability to compensate around this age. It is not their fault (it is just a matter of the brain they were born with) and they may need to learn new tips and strategies for making the brain work for them in various situations.

Has he been tested for 2e and/or have you had reason to suspect there may be a second exceptionality? If you are uncertain what to look for, there are checklists to peruse.

You might take a look at some of the books published by APA's Magination Press, such as these on mindfulness, targeted at children and adolescents:

http://www.apa.org/pubs/magination/browse.aspx?query=subject:Mindfulness

Or this one on anxiety:

http://www.apa.org/pubs/magination/441B032.aspx

I haven't read all of them, but historically, their books have been well-written, with at least some useful elements.

I would affirm Portia's comment that addressing the anxiety generally comes first. Until he is emotionally available for learning, it won't matter how fabulous the school program is.

FWIW, one of my highly anxious children has her anxiety ramp up when she's hungry - she doesn't always realize the connection, but we kept a journal/diary for awhile where we recorded when she had meltdowns or ramp-ups in anxiety, what had happened or what she was doing when the meltdown started and just before, where she was, etc to look for patterns, and there was a clear pattern of increased inability to deal with stress/anxiety when she hadn't eaten for 3-4 hours. If we give her a small snack with a little bit of protein (granola bars or cheese etc) she is able to calm down and then able to deal with whatever is stressing her.

polarbear

re not seeing a counselor - each of my children deals with some type of anxiety, some have been to see a counselor and it helped in some cases, didn't help in others. None of them really ever want to see a counselor, and the older they get the more difficult it is to get them to agree seeing a counselor would be worthwhile.

My 2e kids have anxious personalities in that they *react* to stress with anxiety - for each of them, it's been key to get the 2nd e diagnosed and remediated/accommodated - doing that eliminated essentially all of my ds' anxiety, and it only ramps up now when his 2e challenge gets in his way. He has seen counselors at a few points in the past to help him learn how to "muddle through" (his neuropsych's phrase for dealing with situations where he's bound to have to face his 2nd e) and also for help with anxiety in social situations. The "muddle through" counseling didn't work out all that well but I suspect it was due to a combination of his age (he was around 8) and the fit with the counselor. Later counseling for social anxiety worked well - it wasn't extended in terms of time (i.e. didn't last more than a few months each time), and he was older, and more able to readily see the goals and benefit. He didn't necessarily want to do it or like it, but he did see on some level that it would help him. And now that I'm writing about it, I remember that our ds actually saw a counselor briefly a 4th time, when he was only 6, before he was diagnosed with his 2nd e. That counseling didn't seem to help, and mostly just created a period of time in which we weren't looking for direct answers that would have been much more helpful (his diagnosis).

We've had less success with my 2e dd, but her 2e challenge is less straightforward, and she has co-existing anxiety from previous trauma, so her situation is a bit more complicated. It definitely *has* helped decrease her anxiety, however, to identify and address her 2nd e.

My other dd is also an anxious personality - her anxiety isn't related at all to an LD or other challenge, instead I suspect it's related to past trauma. I've offered to let her see a counselor to talk through her anxieties, which seem to be over-the-top (she worries about almost everything), but she doesn't want to talk to a "stranger" about "personal things". She's also shy around adults and doesn't open up easily (she's the total opposite with peers). So it's a bit of a catch-22 in that her worries prevent her from the opportunity of talking through her worries with someone who might be able to help her deal with them.

So that probably all sounds a bit doom-and-gloomy, but it's not. First thing - if there's any possible suspicion of issues at school or an LD or attempting to compensate etc that might lead to secondary anxiety, getting a thorough evaluation and identifying the cause of the anxiety will be extremely helpful.

Second thing - we've found books, as aeh suggested, really helpful for our kids. We can work through the books together or for my older kids I can give them the books and just check in with them from time to time. Sometimes we pick and choose specific chapters or sections if something specific to that would help with an immediate problem. I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have the names of the books we've used with me, but I can try to find the names for you this weekend if you're interested.

Re your original question -


I think this is a question that is completely dependent on the child and their situation - what is the root cause of their anxiety. I agree with the poster above who mentioned, if you don't deal with anxiety, your child isn't going to be benefiting fully from their schooling, but also would add, it may be an issue that's impacting schooling that is creating the anxiety. Maybe pulling out of school for a little while is best, maybe *not* pulling out is best - it really depends on what is going on with any one child.

Is there any way she can go to school part time. I know a kid with anxiety who did part health school and part high school. This wouldn't usually be allowed in NZ but the anxiety diagnosis made it possible.

Thanks for comments Indigo. That's a great idea - won't see a counselor yet. I've made an appointment w the family doctor to get referred to the local anxiety counselor. That's a mouthful. I'm going to try to see him on my own if/until I can get my DS to go. Perhaps they can walk me through some questions/steps to help him through this stage.

A book might help too. I've read a lot but he wasn't interested before. Perhaps I'll try that. I also have an app called Mindshift that has a lot of resources for anxiety. I got it with him in mind but haven't shown it to him yet. I was hoping the fall would be smooth(er).

I haven't seen any evidence of any 2e issues but good suggestion. He's strong academically and doesn't seem bothered in busy surroundings. My other son used to be more like that and with attention issues.

I think it's social anxiety with bouts of wonderful social confidence. It's odd.

Hi Portia,

Great points! I should get him out and exhaust him. I'm sure that would help.

I also like the idea of trying to narrow down what exactly it is that bothers him. He's not very forthcoming so I'll have to work at it.

As for protein he eats almost constantly but I haven't been paying attention to protein vs carbs when it comes to snacks. Hmmm. I wish he liked almonds because those would be perfect.

You've all be wonderful - thank you for your help!

Thank you Polar Bear.
Your anxious dd sounds a bit like my ds. Helpful to hear how counseling has worked for your other two. I don't know anyone that's been through counseling so that gives me some reference of how it might work.

Thanks also for the acknowledgement that pulling out might help or it might not.

The program he is in, as I mentioned, is so perfect for the way he learns - really for the way anyone learns. I know that he's feeling uncomfortable now and might have concerns about how he'll fit in (imposter syndrome - how smart are these other kids? etc.). I think he was getting somewhat reassured socially and re his fit by this last full Friday. I was optimistic after talking to him that he might be able to see this through.

Later that day he asked again to be homeschooled (he no longer wants to transfer to the local high school).

So, another question that I'm not sure anyone can answer. He's 13. He doesn't see the full picture. We do and we see that this environment - though trickier to adjust to in the beginning - will be amazing for him. Can I allow him to decide to homeschool? He'll have to do DL and follow a broad curriculum and work independently supervised by a remote teacher as my busiest work season is the next 3 months - though I work at home. So from optimal amazing education opportunity to working independently through a text book. This is not a good choice. Also, once he makes that choice he'll regret it and ask to switch back.

On the other hand if he refuses to go what can I do? I've used coercion a few times this past week but can't continue to.

Basically my question is if we feel he really really should continue so he can get through the tough part and reap the benefits and he refuses what then?

Let me add that the teachers have observed him to be happy, laughing and engaged in class.

This is not unheard of, in fact it may be rather common... kids may work hard to blend in, and may show a jovial outward appearance as a mask, while storing their concerns and/or inability to process the myriad stimuli. At home, in their safe space to process, they may meldtown, retreat, or shutdown.

I am uncertain how to help a child extend a sense of "safe place" to a counselor's office, other than to talk a lot at home about feelings experienced throughout the day as different things were occurring... and hope to use these conversations to build a bridge to an expert who may know more... books sometimes help with this. I will second aeh's mention of books from Magination Press (American Psychological Association). I have mentioned these several times in the forums, however that resource slipped my mind at the moment... wouldn't want to shortchange you... glad another poster mentioned them.

I'm adding a link to the related thread on distributed learning, as the conversation on counselors has continued there.

Update! We/he seems to have turned a corner! Yay! I think it was a mixture of seeing how wonderful the program is, starting to feel like he fits in (academically and socially) and being excited about having a fresh start with new people (which initially was a barrier).

I have a happy, engaged, enthusiastic kid again! I couldn't be happier. As you know if you've read all of this thread, this bout of anxiety has been building since late grade 6 (over a year ago) so it's such a relief to see it going (I say that optimistically).

Thank you everyone for your comments and support.

I may need to reopen this again next week when the next obstacle pops up but in the meantime I'm smiling.

I just wrote you a long rambling post about our journey through anxiety on your other post. I'd meant to post it here.

I'm glad things are going better. I hope they stay that way. And despite my enthusiasm with how well DS17 is doing, there are still hiccups along the way.

tillamook, so wonderful to hear he's finding his feet again! Huge happy smiles your way.

It's a really horrible feeling to have a child facing that kind of anxiety and not be able to magically fix it for them, but your support and steadiness through this time has brought him through. As he hopefully gets more at ease and settled in over the next months, one lesson I have learned the hard way is that now is the time to do everything you can to confront the issues that got him to such a bad state before. When they're anxious, they really can't hear you. So when there aren't issues - that's the time to address the issues. Can't say I've really gotten good at this, just learned that I need to work a lot more at it. Thank god for the parents on this board.

Platypus101 - thank you! Brilliant advice. I have just been enjoying the peace and joy but you're absolutely right. Just like all of us, when we're in the middle of heavy emotion it's difficult to see things clearly.

Will definitely broach the topic and see what I can do to help him work through the causes and what we can do to head off any future bumps. I know that's optimistic but hey, I'm feeling optimistic.

Yes, thank god for all of the support available here. Much appreciated!

Platypus101 I am revisiting this post and saw your last words - "When they're anxious, they really can't hear you."

This is so true. We're back at the "I hate school" situation. The first half of the year at the new school (grade 8) was great but after Christmas two big stressful assignments have derailed him. The stress caused him to both act up and withdraw during class time and to be increasingly angry with me. I think it was a "back against the wall" fear reaction. Get me out of here.

Both were coachable things to overcome but one was months long and only became comfortable at the last moment. The other was a student led evaluation where the teachers called him on his recent behaviour. In front of us. He was surprised and upset.

We left school before spring break with him saying he is not going back.

Well, here we are the day after spring break and trying to figure out where we're going. He's actually sick so we have at least another day.

He has resisted all my/our attempts at discussing the situation (before and during the break). Given his history I am leaning towards virtual school from home. If things are overwhelming let's remove the stress and focus on learning. No one does well with long term stress and it's hurting our relationship.

I read everything I could get my eyes on and discussed with other parents on forums which virtual schools were best etc.

Basically, I can't get this kid to talk to me. I want to discuss; what are the key things that aren't working? can we fix them? what do you need? what would be better? what do you think of virtual school?

It is the beginning of 3rd term here. We could do this fairly seamlessly but we need to make it happen.

Refusal to talk, refusal to go, refusal to discuss going in a different direction - where do we go from here? I've told him that school refusal is going to generate a whole storm of counselors and meetings.

Also, this is a kid who has difficulty making decisions. It would seem obvious that I should just make this happen and we can then just work things out together. The drawback to that is virtual school requires a motivated student.

I'm sure this is just harder for me to figure out because I'm so close to it. Any advice?

Several of the items you mentioned your child experiencing sound like symptoms of executive function issues from this list at Understood.org. Has he been evaluated for EF difficulties? Might EF issues be a contributing factor to his anxiety?

Hi Indigo,
Thanks for your response.
He's actually really organized. I have another with EF issues so I know what that looks like. The stressors had to do with; public presentation of a very long group project and a teacher/parent presentation.

EF is much more than organization; Organization is just one of eight key skills listed as being involved in executive function.

This is what seemed to match, between your description and the EF article: In the list below, the numbers are added to correspond to the poster's list, above. What, specifically, was stressful about the two assignments? While many individuals may not enjoy public speaking or presentations, most do not shut down or become derailed. I'd look for an underlying cause. If not EF, then in what direction to search...?

Thanks for your thoughts. I can see where you saw the similarity but I really don't think so with him.

I think with the group project it was that it was a new thing that involved solving a problem and making a skit. It also involved working with a group to generate and vet ideas, agree on the final idea, create props and coordinate efforts when many of the team members had extra curricular activities that prevented them from meeting out of school hours. So it was garden variety quite valid stress.

The second assignment was a week after the presentation, so another immediate ramp up of stress without a break, that involved creating a visual presentation and evaluation of all the learning in the last term. The presentation was to two teachers and his parents (us). He had been deeply unhappy the whole term so he likely wanted to say something less than positive but was forced to come up with something, present it and then face a negative evaluation of his behaviour - in front of his parents.

I appreciate the breakdown but the issue was stress, frustration. Like spending two months preparing a presentation for a group while 99% of the time thinking you're going to completely bomb and then having to present a summary of the last few months to your boss who then tells you that your attitude sucked.

Wow, thanks for making me articulate that. It sounds completely rational really.

Moving on from that is the issue. What would you do as an employee? Look for a new job or stiff upper lip?

Looking beneath the stress and frustration to see what triggered it to such a level of intensity that there does not seem to be sufficient resiliency to recover, learn, and move on.

Did the majority of students have this experience, or was he in the minority?
Were most of the students deeply unhappy?
Did most of the students spend 99% of the time on the group project thinking they were going to completely bomb?
If this was not a problem of this magnitude for the majority of students, what factors do you believe caused them to experience this term differently than your son?

Do you see his experience as a problem of poor "fit" educationally?
Do you see his experience as stemming from something internal? (The content of his self-talk, possibly a tendency to dwell on the negative, etc?)
Do you see his experience as a combination of poor academic "fit" with his learning environment and also something internal?

The answer to your question of what to do going forward may depend largely upon the answers to the above sets of questions.
If he changes learning environments he brings his self-talk and beliefs with him.

Does the school have a school psychologist you could speak with about your concerns for your son?

Very good points. I think it is self talk, coping skills, anxiety perhaps mixed with an innate amplified sensitivity.

I actually think the academic fit is good.

I should set up a meeting with the school counselor. The crux of it is his reluctance/refusal to meet with any counselors.

I do wonder if the school environment (which isn't exactly a natural normal one) is just too much for how he's wired. As adults we can choose (to some extent) where we fit work-wise based on our likes/dislikes.

People who hate public speaking wouldn't be teachers. People who dislike large groups might do research or programming. etc.

Is it necessarily "wrong" to find school a miserable setting?

You know, that's a pretty good description of how the practice of law works.

Ouch. I better make sure he doesn't go into law then. It likely takes an especially resilient personality.

Spaghetti - thanks for your comment.

Good point. I'm not sure that virtual school will be better but I have a strong feeling it will. I think the social aspect of school is a big stressor for him. He has friends and communicates fairly well with them (at the level of most grade 8 boys in any case) but I think negativity from people who are more aggressive really affects him.

That said I agree that his perception of virtual school being a different path than his peers might be a stumbling block. I've read a lot about it and am reassured that it's quite a successful path especially for gifted learners but he hasn't had the benefit of all that reading.

The virtual school has a structured curriculum with a progress bar for each course. I would start out expecting him to work in a very structured way. If he shows he can keep up or even get ahead I would give him more freedom to structure his days how it works best for him.

The idea would be to do virtual school for the four academic courses and have him to his gym/PE, French and electives at the bricks and mortar school that's close to us. That would give him a bit of structure and interaction while allowing him to work at home for the other courses.

In fact transferring now might be ideal as it would give him a few months of doing this before committing to a full year. He has been asking to attend the local school full time but I don't see how the new school will be any different than what he's experiencing now.

I'm especially interested in how your DS has the same inability to express himself or explain his feelings. I'm glad to hear it's not just my DS.

Can I ask what age he was at when this was happening and how it turned out/if it changed over time? How did you deal with his school situation?

Thanks again for your comments.

Can I add he has lately had some imposter syndrome issues. The test used to identify him as gifted was a short version used by the schools. It doesn't translate directly into an IQ number (despite my searching) so he's not sure he trusts it. Also, as he's in a more challenging program he might be doubting his intelligence for the first time. Not used to being challenged.

Yes, an appropriate challenge does not always feel good, if one has not been used to challenge. But if one values acquiring these life skills, one learns to embrace an appropriate challenge... even learns to seek out such challenges and growth opportunities.

This reminds me of the challenges kids choose to undertake in setting and meeting goals while earning the Congressional Award for young Americans.

Indigo - thanks for your comments. This does seem like a coachable moment in terms of helping him understand why things feel different (more challenging -it might not be obvious to him). I'm not sure how to coach him into appreciating the challenge especially when anxiety is clouding the issue.

Is it possible for you, as the parent, to meet with the school counselor to discuss the issues which your son is dealing with?

Yes, I have an appointment with her tomorrow morning.

Well, that's a go then. We're going ahead with virtual school.

Good to hear you have a plan moving forward. How does your son feel about it? Does he view this as a positive change?

Thanks! I'd have to say he's very mixed at the moment. Probably a little scared. I'm trying to give him some room. Have you ever made a change like this? Just trying to figure out how to best manage it.

Want to give him room but also not lose any work habit momentum. I guess it's a scary change for me/us too.

Have to get an answer back from the local school about cross enrolling for electives and also check in with my top 3 choices for virtual schools.

An update...

So, he insisted on going back shortly after we pulled him (mid April) and has been miserable ever since. Self sabotaging and basically not doing any homework. We kept insisting that he go with the goal of finishing out the year but now have pulled him (only a week and a half or so to go).

I look back now and think why? Why so much pressure and stress? Daily cajoling and punishing. Thinking back years - he has been unhappy for so long.

We've decided to go with a self directed learning program via an independent distributed learning school mixed with electives at our local B&M.

I'm so relieved that the daily struggle to get him to go is over and that we have a hopefully good solution moving forward.

He seems happy with the solution. Exhale.

Another update...

He ended up switching to full time at the local B&M at the last minute. He has had to take one online course because that class was full. The first half of the year was fine but we might be getting into last half of the year misery again. Not sure though as illness (stomach trouble GERD) seems to be the cause. The medicine, a PPI, is causing fatigue and general fluey feelings that are keeping him home a lot. We spent the first 6 weeks harassing him to go anyway but then I found those symptoms as the most typical side effects of the medicine so I've backed off. Two more weeks of medicine to go. We'll see what happens then. Misery at school or back to normal.

Got back on his feet after medicine ended. I wonder if anyone else suffered when taking proton pump inhibitors. He took it for GERD. He was really fatigued and didn't get energy from food. Anyone else see this?