So, it's time to start school around here and we just left Meet the Teacher. We got the ONE teacher with a bad reputation. I haven't heard horror stories but I understand her to be quite inflexible.

DS7 is HG with dysgraphia and we will be working to get a 504 for him ASAP. I tried to start this conversation last year but no one seemed interested. The AP said we'd meet the first week of school, which seemed like a lofty goal. I've emailed her now about that and no response. I emailed her last Wednesday.

Here's my question-do I try to get him into another class or wait and see how it goes? Frankly, last year was terrible and I just want him start off well. I'm also concerned about fighting the 504 battle while asking for a new teacher. Do I need to pick my battles here? Both are feeling pretty big at the moment.

Ugh! This is hard, I know. FWIW, if you don't have a specific indication that this teacher is a problem for YOUR child, I would wait and see on the teacher issue and fight hard on the 504. Teacher reputations are so very subjective. Sometimes tough teachers are really great with g kids because they have high standards and reward performance. Sometimes an "inflexible" (by reputation) teacher actually just doesn't tolerate bad behavior. My kids as a general rule flourished with buttoned-up teachers with high expectations and structure. We had a nightmare with superficially "warm" teachers who were disorganized, stressed out, and so on.

No parent ever tells another parent, "You know, my kid is spoiled, hard to handle, and unmotivated, and I as a parent feel entitled to the royal treatment. Teacher X really didn't appreciate the kid's precious spoiled behavior or my helicopter interventions to save him from natural consequences. Oh, and during our five-week trip to Tahiti during the school year, the teacher insisted dc actually do some homework!" Instead, the parent will say, "Oh, Teacher X is terrible. We had a horrible year. Teacher X is inflexible."

Of course, inflexible could really mean inflexible too, unwilling to differentiate, unwilling to admit that the gifted exist (yes, they're ALL equally special!!). My point is just that, absent good information, the best assumption is that all the teachers are average on all traits, good and bad.

So unless you have true inside info about the other possibilities (like, your child had that teacher last year and s/he's moved up with the grade), you're flying blind. You could waste a lot of capital with the school and end up no better off or even worse off.

The 504, by contrast, is (relatively) objective. The teacher, whoever he/she is, MUST follow it by law, and there are personnel in the school who will make it happen if you are prepared to monitor the situation. So if he is entitled to extra time, use of a computer, whatever, they HAVE to do that.

The irony is that, in the end, a wonderful teacher is far more valuable. A wonderful teacher, and my kids had some, will value that child and stretch her to what she can do. But given a non-wonderful teacher, the 504 is more valuable. Personally, I plan on the downside! :-)

Hope this helps a bit! If only to know you're not alone. :-)

Thank you, GF2. This helps a lot. I needed some perspective. I was working so hard on having a good attitude and when I got to the school and saw the teacher, I just wanted to cry. We will see how it goes.

We may be joining you in that sentiment. DD9 finds out in two days if she got "the vampire" for the second year in a row.

Oh Dude...that sounds awful! Hoping it's not "the vampire."

The teacher ds7 had last year was awful for him but a lot of parents thought he was great. I know one woman who had her eldest in his class for 2 years and he now has her next son. I on the other hand am trying to work out how to say any teacher but ... On the end of year teacher request form.

We know ds9's teachers will be the two who teach his special program. As long as neither of them moved we already know...which is home room teacher and which is the other teacher he will have for half the day isn't known yet....makes waiting easy.

nikiharp, would you be willing to share any details about why this teacher is rumored to be undesirable? If you have good reason for concern, and if you feel that her teaching style (or other issues) are a bad fit for your ds with re to his challenges in particular, then I'd ask for a different teacher (from that perspective). But make the request a request geared toward a conflict between the teacher's teaching style and your ds' needs - you can still complement the teacher while making it clear that your ds needs something different - you don't have to come across as picky and entitled and all that when requesting a teacher change. Keep the focus on your ds' needs, it's not about the teacher.

No matter what, you need to request the 504. Are you sure it's a 504 your ds needs or does he need an IEP? Either way, you know he needs one or the other. You need to turn in a written request *now* so that the school is on notice to start the process. When you have a conversation, no one at the school has any binding responsibility to follow through, but a written request from a parent has to be "answered" within a certain time frame. You can make the request in a very friendly, polite manner, but still be clear - you're requesting a team meeting to put together a 504 plan for your ds who has a dysgraphia diagnosis and who needs accommodations in the classroom to be able to fully access his education.

If you want to request a teacher change, you could put that in this same letter and state that you have concerns re this teacher's (flexibility, emphasis on handwriting, whatever) - I *think*. Truthfully it would be a good idea if you can find one to ask a local parent advocate for some advice in putting your letter together. For all the great advice you can get online, local advice is also really important. Our advocates actually were familiar with some of the teachers and definitely school principals etc in our district (they become familiar with them as they help different parents who are struggling to advocate).

Last thing - I am guessing that you've actually talked with this teacher (at "Meet the Teacher") - if you do ask for a different teacher, you can cite concerns you have after talking to her at this initial "meet" meeting. That might carry a tiny bit more wait than just making a request based on input from other parents etc.

Good luck - let us know how everything goes -

polarbear

If you trust the information you have on the teacher, I think that's the more important thing to worry about. Because if she has a bad reputation she probably really is bad. But I wouldn't go with what just one parent says (unless you really value that person's input)...you need to hear the same type of sentiments from more than one.
My experience is that parents try REALLY hard to like teachers and often don't see obvious negatives glaring right in their face. So I tend to trust negative input more than positive input. It could be the others aren't much better (or have other problems)...hard to say until you are acutally in the situation. Last year at around this time I was really disappointed when I found out who DD's teacher was (because ONE person gave me very negative input), but it was DS's teacher (who I had never heard anything negative about), who was the real nightmare. Let's just say she's incredibly good at faking people out. She plasters a huge fake smile on her face and then proceeds to completely ignore requests/concerns in a passive aggressive manner.

it always cracks me up when people are always negative when people don't have any real facts. I agree with GF2's first two paragraphs.. I would agree with black at trusting the negative if this was 1974. when I was growing up parents were not involved enough. These days it's just the opposite.

Your post brought to mind a friend of mine, her child has quite severe anxiety...

She always puts a letter into the person who has the most pull in making the student / teacher pairings stating what kind of teacher works best (without naming names) for her child given his personality traits & anxiety. She also puts something 'nice' about trusting that the (private) school will make the right placement. To date this has worked really well for her and her DS12.

Wishing you and your son the best of luck for a successful school year!

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

At this point, I don't know that I have enough valid information to request a teacher change. I have a close friend who has a child receiving special education services and she and her son had a bad experience. I've contacted my friend for details so I can make a better decision. I received similar negative comments from a total stranger while waiting on allergy shots.

This is going to sound crazy, but I'm afraid of the negative repercussions this will have on DS and our future in this school. Independently, my husband and brother both asked if I felt that this was vindictive behavior. I had this same thought but it seems paranoid and crazy to even consider a school behaving this way.

polarbear, I don't honestly know if he needs a 504 or IEP. From what I can tell, either will be very difficult to receive. I have requested a meeting and was told last year that the meeting would take place the first week of school. I sent the AP a request for this again last week and have had no reply. Do I have to send an actual paper letter?? I don't even know how to go about getting a local advocate.

I get the sense that this school has a VERY high opinion of itself. It's an affluent area and the parents here are intense. I talked with three different moms that I would consider friends two weeks ago and was astounded by our conversation. One was concerned that their 4 year old couldn't properly grip a pencil. Another was chastising herself for slacking on the sight word flash cards with her 4 year old. Another asked my opinion of the educational content of the centers in the three year old preschool class. It just seemed a bit much to me for preschool. I don't get a sense that these are kids begging to be taught to read and write but I could be wrong.

Feel free to keep sending your thoughts. This is uncharted territory for me. I do have a very clear narrative report outlining the diagnosis and recommendations from a ed psych. I feel 100% confident in her assessment.

I think you should talk to the principal and tell him you've had a conversation with this teacher and you're concerned that it's the wrong fit for your child based on x, y, z.

My HG son has dyslexia & dysgraphia and the first time I didn't object to his teacher placement, and he got the teacher with the bad reputation, I tried to have an open mind. But it was a disastrous year. The teacher deserved her reputation and more. He was a 4th grader and this teacher merely presented information. Her opinion was that kids can learn from it or not-- their choice. If a kid got a C, they were obviously just average. She gave them no help. A poor writer? Obviously not very capable. She never gave extra help. My son did have a 504 that said he needed to write on the computer, but she never turned on the computer, which was in a hallway. When I asked why he wasn't keyboarding, the answer was always that he didn't want to do it. Go figure. The HGT teacher was furious with this teacher over the way she treated my son (she knew him), but there was nothing she could do.

When school administrations wonder why some parents don't trust their decisions-- this is why. As you can tell, I'm still mad about it three years later. But I'm also mad at myself that I didn't do something about it.

Probably depends on the school/district because here, everyone seems overly positive and trusting to me, and not particularly involved compared to some of the other schools. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only parent in the school who has figured out the school has no idea how to write IEPs, do evaluations, etc. It's like seriously? No one has ever complained about this or noticed it before? Wake up people. So I tend to trust the parents that I view as being somewhat involved (but not overly helicopterish, although I don't see many of those in the school) and intelligent.


Anyway, to the OP, I think it's a good idea to try to get as much info and specifics as you can about the teacher, and the other teachers if you can, and then decide.

Some resources which may help with learning more about IEP and 504 include: the book From Emotions to Advocacy, wrightslaw website, National Center for Learning Disabilities (NCLD) website.

Tips for meeting prep have been posted on other threads but in case it is helpful, here is a brief summary:

- Research state laws and the school or district policies and practices. This information is often found online. You may wish to print and put this in an advocacy ring binder to refer to over the years as the laws and policies/practices may change over time.
- Have any test results and other pertinent facts available to share (milestones, reading lists, other accomplishments/achievements)
- It is good to have them speak first. If asked to speak first, you may simply wish to thank everyone for attending and summarize that you are all here to share information and ideas about how to best meet your child's educational needs... and that you would like to hear from them.
- Agenda
- Know who is in the meeting, and their role(s)
- Stay calm
- Know what you are asking for
- TAKE NOTES including Who-What-Where-When-Why-How of support services and/or differentiation, so you can summarize in an e-mail afterward [Some families announce they plan to record the meeting and then do so, rather than taking notes.]
- Use active listening (rephrase what has been said, and put it in a question form) to clarify understanding
- Be open to receiving the school's data/observations.
- Listen to any proposals they may make, ask appropriate probing questions, such as how a proposal may work, how the proposal may help your child, the schedule/frequency of service delivery, etc
- Do not be forced to make a decision if you need time
- Summarize next steps & time frames, and/or need for a follow-up meeting
- Thank everyone for their time & interest
- After the meeting, write a summary (points of agreement, etc) and share it, possibly by e-mail

My story is a little different. My daughter got a teacher in 2nd who had a bad reputation and parents who had older kids that had the teacher were getting their kids switched to another. My daughter had a bad 1st grade because the teacher seemed to have every "bad kid in her class be cause one of the other teachers was new and just out of college. The teacher couldn't control the classroom. To make a long story short that 2nd grade teacher ended up being her all-time favorite teacher (now she's in 7th grade). What I could tell parents didn't like her because she didn't put up with bad behavior and made the kids do homework. The funny part to me even after that year parents still hated the second grade teacher but loved the first grade teacher. Go figure. I will admit however my daughter didn't have any of the issues the original poster had.

As if if you need a 504 or IEP? You may not know until you have testing completely done. I was surprised yesterday when the nuropsyc evaluation my son suggested we have enough to push a IEP. I had presuming that we would be looking for a 504. In my mind I had seen IEP for issues like Learning Difficulties and 504 for more social difficulties (ADD, ASD). But I guess the difference is really more what kind of accommodations you are asking for with the 504/IEP. The psychologist also said it depends on the school. Some schools one is easier to get than the other.

Good Luck. I like master_of_none's advice that you keep this at getting your DS what HE needs. Write to the school. But keep in mind that they aren't likely to be handing out a 504/IEP the first week of school. There are policies and procedures and these take time. School have to start the process, try obvious things first and then usually show they aren't working before they will even start testing.

Some have found that not all differentiation is positive or beneficial. Differentiation may imply support for the development of gifted pupils, but "different" does not necessarily mean "better suited for".

While a teacher may be a factor in the effectiveness of differentiation, placing demands on a teacher to effectively teach students with a broad range of readiness and ability concurrently may be less conducive to learning than cluster grouping students for each subject by readiness and ability without regard to chronological age.

A roundup of other posts to inform about differentiation include:
- differentiation which holds gifted kids back: selective redo opportunity & leveling out
- differentiation in instruction, or in output
- differentiated task demands for CC
- differentiation in assignments
- differentiated task demands, compared to running a mile
- differentiating within cluster groups by readiness and ability
- differentiation as a buzzword
- differentiation which masks lack of teaching with appropriate curriculum and pacing
- differentiation to thwart talent development or obfuscate the level of acheivement
- Seek clarification on the 5Ws of differentiation

It is my understanding that many areas do not consider being gifted, or the asynchronous development often associated with being gifted, to be an impairment in accessing education, therefore in many areas only a learning disorder/disability would provide a legal basis for ensuring support services.

Well said.

nikiharp, the question re whether or not your ds needs a 504 or an IEP depends on whether or not he needs individualized instruction (an IEP) or accommodations to allow him to fully participate in the classroom and to be able to demonstrate his knowledge (504). If a student has an IEP and needs accommodations, they are typically included in the IEP rather than having a 504 plan while the IEP is in place.

One other thing to consider - a 504 plan is quicker and easier to put together. An IEP will require eligibility testing by the school in addition to the documentation you already have. A 504 plan can most likely be written from the private eval report that you already have. On the other hand, IEPs come with more legal protections and requirements for the school to follow the paperwork whereas 504s seem to have less safeguards built in. All that said, the deciding factor re pursuing an IEP vs 504 should always be - does my student need an individualized education plan, or will he/she be able to fully access their education with accommodations through a 504. Hope that makes sense!

I can't tell you which your ds needs, and as mentioned above sometimes *some* instructional services (in some districts) are covered under a 504 plan (teaching a child to keyboard, for instance). Typically with dysgraphia, students need accommodations (scribing, keyboarding, copies of notes, etc), but sometimes they might also benefit from OT (for handwriting or fine motor), and sometimes the issues with writing go beyond simply accommodating (need help with learning various skills involved in written expression.


What blue magic is describing is called "Response to Intervention" (RTI). RTI is supposed to take place before an IEP eligibility evaluation is held (this is what happens in our district). You do *not* have to have your ds go through RTI first if you are requesting a 504 and have documentation of needs from a credible source. You can also go ahead and request the IEP eligibility evaluation even though RTI hasn't taken place. If the school staff replies that RTI needs to happen first, listen to what they are proposing, then respond by listing the history of what has been tried, what did/didn't' work for your ds, and referring back to the needs listed on the evaluation report you already have. RTI might be general policy, but that policy is aimed at understanding students who haven't been evaluated yet.

polarbear

Even if the kids are begging to read/write the parents sound just a bit hyper about it lol!

Anyway, what you need to do is totally ignore and don't put those other parents on your radar. What the other parents are doing, or how the school district views itself have no bearing on what your child is *legally* entitled to - you need to simply focus on what your ds needs to be successful, and advocate with blinders on to the rest. I am not sure from what you've said if you turned in your previous requests via email (email should count as a "written" request) - but if you have, I'd write a formal "letter" requesting either the 504 or an IEP evaluation (depending on which you feel is appropriate), send that in via email to your school's 504 or SPED coordinator, and cc the district head of either 504 or SPED. Once that is in you've officially started a time clock which means they will have to respond with either "we'll hold a meeting on xx date" or "we do not think your ds needs the 504 or IEP meeting" - and you'll have either your starting date or you'll have the starting point from which you appeal the decision to not review your ds' needs.

Can I ask a silly question? I'm not sure what "AP" stands for?

pbear

mon offers wonderful advice, but I diverge a slight bit here in how I approach things. I would not go about this in this manner when you know your ds is dysgraphic and has a diagnosis. I'd be up front and state that he needs to have access to keyboarding or scribing or whatever is recommended in your report. I'd explain why he needs that (explain what dysgraphia is and how it impacts a child when using handwriting). Like mon I believe it's important to stay polite and focus on the child, but I do think it's possible to be polite, be focused on your child, and discuss accommodations directly rather than playing a bit of a game to win the teacher over.

polarbear

AP is assistant principal

The ed psych says that, at this point, he needs "intense remediation" in writing. She also mentions that this may gradually shift in a few years from direct intervention to accommodations, like assistive tachnology, etc.

"Intense remediation" sounds like IEP to me. If he needed to type or have a scribe, that seems like a 504. He needs someone to teach him step-by-step how to write, how to organize his thoughts, how to spell, use traditional writing conventions, etc. He can tell you that sentences need to start with capitals and end in punctuation but his writing samples were shockingly bad and it's not because he wasn't trying.

Fabulous summary! Parents need to have this high-level understanding, and ALSO have resources which they can consult for detail, refer to as experts by name, and quote in meetings, lending authority and strength to the parent's position and presentation, if needed.

Yes, he'll need an IEP to receive the remediation that's been recommended. He'll also need accommodations (keyboarding or scribing) though and you'll want to get them in place now too:


THIS is dysgraphia and what needs to be accommodated - he knows the rules for capitals and punctuation, but he can't access that knowledge while he's using handwriting because all of his working memory is taken up by trying to remember how to form each letter that he's writing. That's why he needs accommodations now - so he can show you what he does know, and so the remediation he receives will be able to focus on the specific pieces of written expression that he hasn't learned yet.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - I think you mentioned above you don't know where to look for an advocate - you can start by looking at the "yellow pages" link on the home page for wrightslaw.org - there are agencies listed by state/area there and I think it's a fairly up-to-date inclusive list. That's how I found my local group.

polarbear

Thank you everyone! I'm grateful for all of your input. This is bigger than I thought but I feel like I have a better understanding of what is needed.

Polarbear -- Thanks this explains the process a lot better for me as well. It helps me realize I probably only want a 504 from DS's high school like I thought. And since I've done DS's testing over the summer I might be able to get the school to act without the second SST meeting.

If you have outside testing that covers all the areas of concern, and are willing to share it with the school, the school does not need to conduct its own evaluation (although I know many districts do anyway). If it is current, valid, comprehensive, and signed by a licensed evaluator, you can ask for an eligibility determination team to be convened based on this information. If the school says they need additional information, ask what it is, and see if you can identify corresponding data in your existing eval. When I receive a report like this, I usually supplement with teacher reports and a classroom observation, but otherwise rely on the results of the outside eval. I might draw different conclusions, but I still use the same data.

Thanks, aeh. I thought I had my arms wrapped around this, but I'm feeling uncertain now. This helps immensely.

I was able to talk with my friend about her experience with this teacher. It was worse than I thought. Her child has an IEP for significant developmental delay and the teacher essentially ignored the child and the mother's requests for help with basic things. She was unresponsive and became defensive when the mother made suggestions about her son. She (the mother) went so far as to say that she didn't feel her son would have been promoted to the next grade had he not received so much outside help.

This pretty much describes the gifted teacher also and I just don't think we can handle a year full of this. DH sent a request for a meeting with the asst principal to discuss placing him in a new class and followed-up with her on the IEP process. If she doesn't respond within 24 hours, he's going to take it up a notch, respectfully.

I don't know if this is the right thing or not but my gut instinct says to push for the change and the IEP. My stomach is in knots leaving him there today. He doesn't know a single boy in his class and the teacher didn't speak to either of us when we entered the room. When I left, I said a cheery, "Have a great fist day" to her and she responded with a flat, "Thanks." I'm being overly sensitive and it's a very busy day and I'm sure that accounts for some of this.

Thanks for listening