Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments I think my DS is going underground already.

I think my son is already starting to underachieve.

He is four. I know that is really young, but as I have posted before, we have really found his behavior is heaps better if I do some sort of school with him. He needs the routine and he needs the stretching. We are homeschooling. Every so often I see him really excited in a quest for learning, but those moments are already getting further apart. He doesn't seem to want to do anything that involves challenge.

An example is reading. We were out at a place we had been to fairly often before and I was stuck outside with my younger boy, so I sent DS inside to get a toy. He came back and said "It won't let me in there." I asked what wouldn't and he said the door. I didn't know what he meant, but when I finally got in there, there was a sign on the door saying that "Children are not allowed in here without adult supervision" So he had read the sign - or at least nutted out enough of it to understand something - yet he insists he can't read. He will insist he can't read words like cat and dog.

He can do addition with counters, but he will guess wildly instead.

What makes this tricky is it is very similar to the behavior of a close family member and it is not a path I'm keen for him to follow.

The options seem to be either I am aiming too low and he is taking that a vote of no confidence or too high and he really can't do what I want him to do. Or both in some weird way

This makes it so tough. The trick is to use it as a warning but not a self-fufilling prophecy. Lots of journaling or other venting or prayer or meditation or whatever you do on this one to see the two situations as related by separate. The last thing you want is to leak anxiousness in your son's direction.


I don't think that it's at all unusual for a 4 year old to go underground. Those do seem to be the options, and the good news is that you can at least shift your aim. Prepare yourself for some temper tantrums - the sound of stuck behavior becoming unstuck.
If you see him do higher level stuff, then he can, at least at times, do it. I think it's normal for the abilities to sort of 'come and go' for some 4s. Take whatever energy you can out of disbelieving yourself - not easy to do when we've gotten little besides that from the world. Keep a homeschooling Log, just to put your unconscious on notice that you are paying more attention to reality now and less to preconceived ideas.

See if you can find a conference to attend - if you are in the NorthEast, there is one coming up April 30-May 1 It takes a village, and that may be what he is waiting for.

Similarly, can you hire a high school kid from the honors classes to feed him ideas from their school. Someone who doesn't know better? What about playing chess with DS? Remember that Middle School Science and History Texts are great jumping off points.

And - if you haven't tried 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' by Block/Glasser, that's another way to handle the interactions between you and DS4 to be sure you are doing what you can to encourage his greatness.

Is DS more of a precocious skills learner or precocious abstract thinker kind of kid? What were you planning for Kindy?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

When my son was a little younger than yours, he also denied that he could read, despite evidence to the contrary - turns out he was horribly afraid that we would stop reading books aloud with him if we knew. Once we convinced him that we would still read together, he loosened up about it. (We kept the promise, BTW, and still read books aloud together as a family - my son is now 14!)

Another thing to think about is that lots of gifted kids really dislike being asked to demonstrate their knowledge just to "prove" that they know something or can do something. If your child can count, and has shown you this before, he may "guess wildly" because he is feeling insulted that you think he can't, or feeling resistant to be being asked to "perform", or because he thinks it is funny to give an obviously ridiculous answer. We found that playing games that required counting and/or addition and subtraction for success (like Blackjack, backgammon, etc.) were great ways to practice these skills without hitting that resistance.

Thanks, Grinity, wise words. I do doubt myself and I do need a village, and we haven't found one irl yet. My natural inclination with the parenting I have done when they were babies has led me to the more Stiener/unschooling crowd, and gifted is a tricky one with some of them. I think that feeds into my natural fear that I might be pushing him.

I keep saying I must check out that workbook!

I will have to look into those ideas and see if there is something I can feasibly do. We are working under some pretty tight constraints right now. We are not in the US and there do not seem to be many conferences around. There is only one support group in my state, and that has had/is having some issues. I had been thinking about a having a teen to help out a bit actually.

I should say he is nearly 5. We are planning to continue to home school him. We really weren't happy with the schools here. They are dealing with huge social issues, and very low academic performance. One school we were considering had 10 extra teachers to help students who were behind and one to help the students who were advanced. There just aren't many educational services here that I can find.

I think he's an abstract thinker - he puts things together. He notices things. I think he prefers a hands-on learning style. I am currently finding that a bit difficult to implement since it requires so much support from me. I admit I do want him to read because I know that will open up a lot more possibilities for him that he will really enjoy.

Yes, I thought that and we had a huge conversation about it. Maybe he doesn't believe me, LOL!

I like the games idea, he's pretty motivated by games at the moment.

You are not alone. You could be describing my DD (age 4). She is always on the cliff ready to jump into the deep dark hole. I wish I had the magical solution but we are still trying to figure out how to get her past this. Since DD does go to school but isn't getting challenged we have added in 'homework' for when she gets home. I've been pleased with her reaction to all of it. She is excited to do the homework and yesterday even asked for some math. Given how long her school day is we are focusing on reading everyday but on weekends we add in some math. Before starting all of this I gave her an assessment and she is clearly in 2nd grade level work. The sad thing is she was basically there at age 2 but because I freaked out about a lot of this and didn't want to 'push' her and given her personality she didn't move forward. I can happily say that our homework idea is moving her forward and it looks like she is starting to thirst for more. Now if we can figure out how to convince her to speak up in school about wanting to learn more we will have really accomplished our goals.

Ok, done is done. But don't blame yourself too much - development is very uneven for higher LOG kids. I'm sure she was busy developing in other ways.


The thirst is your most reliable guide.
Don't expect her to assertively self-advocate until age 10, it's rare for a child to be able to do it, and rarer for an adult to hear it the 'right way.'
Luckily she has you. You can make videos of her homework sessions and show them to teachers.

Love and more love,
Grinity

Check here for upcoming conferences.
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/conferences.htm

A great picture book might be: www.dinotopia.com/

And if you are what we call locally a 'crunchy-granola' sort raising a Machivelli,Jr sort - get that workbook and use it!!! (I was/am, and not every child thrives under those conditions!)

I well remember dragging my son to the localish Stiener school for summer camp a few summers because it would have been the perfect enviornment for me as a child. Just walking in and smelling the beeswax candles and seeing the little cutting boards - oohhh! But my DS just hated everything about it (although I secretely suspect he learned a few important lessons.)

Wink,
Grinity

My perspective is a little different. For some kids any amount of adult investment is misread by the kid as pressure. So, my suggestion would be don't ask him if he can read and don't engage in struggles over school work that requires it. Give him space to get to the place where he is more comfortable with it. If he responds well to structure and intellectual engagement by all means give that to him - but it doesn't need to be reading words or using counters to do math. We found games were really helpful during this time period. The books by Peggy Kaye - Games for Math, Games for Reading, etc. were particularly helpful.

Katelyn'sMom, Thank you, I needed to hear that. I'm, glad it's not just me.



I understand this. We have been doing things sporadically, but not consistently. I have been trying to leave it him to lead, and he's not really. He just tantrums and fights when he isn't getting enough. I guess I was expecting him to ask with his words, since he is so verbal, and it is only recently I have come to realize that he doesn't really know exactly what it is he needs, so he can't ask for it.

And yes, Grinity, it is the thirst that I have noticed is disappearing a bit. It makes me sad

I am trying to avoid struggling with him over doing things. as PassThePotatoes said, I know I hated to be watched doing things and all of that. I'm just really worried because I don't think I am providing him with ideas at his level. Mostly because I'm having trouble judging that. But the games could work, he is very motivated by games right now.

I'm going to have to think some more, but I am battling some sleep deprivation right now, so I might come back to it.

Thank you.

Get some sleep GeoMamma! Make sure to use the tools in your self nurture kit. Remember that it will look smoother and less messy when you look back at it, but family life is so messy, and even with all of our ideas here, if just takes a while to get the hang of a particular kid at a particular stage!

Good news is that at age 4, they can look really terrible one week, and still respond to you making better choices amazingly quickly the next week. Your learning curve will be almost as rapid as his!

Love and more Love,
Grinity

Something that may appeal to both an unschooling mama and her sneaky reader son is selecting some non-fiction books about whatever topics interest him. Look for ones with lots of pictures or diagrams. Offer to read them to him, but when you're not reading them together, make them easily accessible in places he might like to look at them without you around/noticing. His room, the car, even the bathroom.

My DS was reading very early, but did not like to read books aloud to us or in front of us. We read a chapter from a novel together at night, and sometimes he would read on ahead after he was supposed to be asleep, so we knew he was reading at a high level. But when we started getting books about space, which was his obsession at age 3-4, and he realized that reading could be a tool for gaining knowledge on his own he really began to be more comfortable with it.

Okay, sorry about the delay, it's been a really full-on week this week. There are a lot of things going on right now for all of us and none of this is helping. It is too easy to just let it go for another day because it's another thing to do. Which is of course, not good enough - especially since that always makes things worse for later on in the day and the next day, etc.

I just wanted to say I don't think he has to do addition with counters or read or anything, they were just easy to understand examples of him avoiding effort. He seems to do the same thing with a lot of different areas.

So the plan?

Well, as I have said, structure and routine. I have always had a loose routine but we have always had to be very routine with DS. So we need to kick back into that. It's a pain though because he always fights it a little bit at first. So I have to find some energy for that somewhere.

So the first part is I need to get some self nurturing happening, yes. There are a few other signs that I need that anyway I have no idea how THAT is going to happen though. Sigh.

Part of that routine will be 'learning time' which will be not really lessons, but as many hands on activities as I can manage and find! Something like this style (http://www.homeschooldiner.com/guide/hands_on_learning.html). (Suggestions would be welcome!)We will also use radwild's reading of nonfiction books (something we always have done, but I'll ramp it up a bit!) and games. (Side question: How do I know if I'm aiming those things too hig or too low?)

I think I will try to find someone, a teen or something that can do something with him. I'm thinking maybe hands on science experiments or something. The stuff I am really struggling with at the moment. Is that what you meant, Grinity? We definitely need to create a community for him, and that is hard. But somehow it needs to be done. It's his personality.

I am currently trying to convince DH that interstate travel with a newborn is a good idea, LOL, to attend a conference. He is (understandably) skeptical.




I'm hanging on to that, Grinity!

I know that most you don't need to know all of this, but I need to put it in writing and I'm hoping sending my intentions out into the universe will help me actually find the energy to implement them

Thank you!

In the self care department, I've posted a few topics about meditation:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ditation_instructions_for.html#Post94674

is for teaching kids, but it works just fine for adults,

also

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ol_for_decreasing_anxiety.html#Post97630

As far as travel - ((red face)) I forgot you had a newborn on board! Opps! Maybe DH can take your DS4 and you can stay home with the baby?

There is a nice book called 'Dangerous Book for Boys' chock full of projects for boys - would be a good topic starter for a teen to work with your son. Also 'boyscout handbooks' are good references for hands on projects.

As far as not getting the level too low, you have to aim too high and go as slow as your son needs! Those U.S. Middle school text books are great for that. Seriously, a lot of thought has gone into those things to make the information accessible. see

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ABiology%20-%20Study%20and%20teaching%20(Middle%20school)&page=1
yum,yum!

Buy the cheap ones that are 5 years out of date!

love
grinity

Yes, I used to meditate. Then kids happened Seriously though, that is a good idea. I also like walking mediation, and as soon as I can walk again, I am going to do that again.

I think I need to spend a bit of money on some more books and games and things. I am having trouble getting past the mental block of getting middle school texts for a four year old. I know that's silly, but I can't help it! (Relatedly) I was looking at my old teaching books, looking for ideas and I ran across some great thematic and hands-on things I thought he would love. I had a little freak out when I realised they were aimed at 7/8 year olds!

I feel really fortunate that I have been able to really figure out better idea of what he needs and how I should approach this. It's been great. The last few days have been a lot better. Although, with all the projects etc we've been doing, my house is looking decidedly untidy!

At least it feels like slightly directed chaos, and that is a step up!

Good idea. �Those early learning programs don't even last long enough. :p
Hooked on phonics pre-k, 1st, and kindergarten -down
Reading eggs and Singapore 1B to go. �Well, mammoth math multiplication and a whiteboard, Draw Write Now and Handwriting Without Tears Cursive. �A couple of critical reading first grade workbooks. �I read the passages and read him the questions. �The Usborne Internet Linked dictionary of World History, �Just the fraction lesson from calculus by and for kids, so far. �
I just keep a running list of lessons and work on one for a week-ish, or so, and then back onto another one for a while. �Really less than half an hour a day. �And nothing for the last 3 months of my recent pregnancy. ��

�I'll only sit with him through one lesson, other than that he's got free reign of the Internet on a kid-safe browser (kidzui is free with firefox) and reading eggs is one of his bookmarks. �Some phrases that sum it up for me are "creating a knowledge bank",& "kids work on one skill for a while, then put it on a back burner- it's still in there waiting for them to add to it.". Which totally takes the stress, expectations, and the time-frame completely out of the picture. �I just feed the beast (who here coined that phrase?). �

Also my guy is at that stage where he can almost read, but not good enough to read yet. �I seem to vaguely remember my own childhood, at a stage just barely past that when I could read but not fluently enough to enjoy it; I really enjoyed book and tapes. �I don't remember what, I just remember it was on a fisher-price record player with 45rpm little records with big holes in the middle. �So I just got the boy (scary) Shrek w/cd. �Which he has been wearing out, working out his own tracking and fluency, I'm sure.

One thing I trained him to do is play with stuff with many pieces, like magnetic mighty mind, or perfection, or operation by bringing them out at the dinner table while I'm cooking, showing an interest but really cultivating the habit of collecting, counting, checking and putting away all the pieces when you're done. �There's a time-limit built in with a reason to pick up the pieces.�

Admitting you have a problem is the first step. Think of it this way - if you had an a Junior Encyclopedia on hand, and your 4yo had a question that was covered there, would you get if off the shelf to have a glance for a jumping off point? Todays Middle School textbooks are very similar to the Junior Encyclopedias we remember with such fondness. I wouldn't expect a 4 year old to use them in the same way that a middle school student might, but the pictures are wonderful, and the 'outline of what topics are included in this topic, and how the inter-relate' is terrific.

Hope that helps,
Grinity

That is a good way to think about it, Grinity! I will have a look through some books I already have, DH is a hoarder and he may still have some of his texts. I guess that's what a long weekend is for!

We can't really use textbooks much at all, La Texican. It meets with great resisitence and refusal to do it. We do use the computer a lot though - Starfall was a favourite for a while. Now it the amazing machine, gooballs, cool math, etc. I'll get DH onto the klidzui, thanks!

We are using a lot of resources picked from here and there and doing them in a fairly unstructured way. DH reads Story of the World and generally I do the craft things from there. We also do some of the Little City Kids Curriculum, although he is starting to outgrow that, but I keep it up for DS2.5 who is really starting to enjoy that sort of thing.

I am starting to make more Montessori materials, very slowly.

we have lots of puzzle books and things around, games and of course toys.

Oh! I'm just watching DS sitting on the floor near DH and DS2.5 and reading a book! It's only the labels in the book, but it is more than he has done much before.

Whoo hoo!

It got better, he started reasing some of the text, and it led to a big discussion with DH about the ways in which animals evolved.

Your situation is my dd4 right now. She refused to read with me but then she would let it slip here and there. And the other night she says to me, mom keep reading you left off at..whatever word it was. So I had a conversation with her about it and apparently she felt if she showed me that she could read that I wouldn't read to her anymore.

I found a great game idea, a spin off the memory game. Matching the picture to the word. After several cards and no errors, I think I'm onto something.