Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy deterioration; we're at a loss to find solutions

A couple of years ago someone posted the video about Mark Ya and his relationship with Yang Yang as mentor. Yang Yang talked about how few prodigies make it through the adolescent years and continue as musicians because of the what teens go through and the isolation of a performing prodigy's life.

Sometimes the social needs of that period outweigh the academic needs, particularly if they are way ahead. Even that movie, and yes, it is a movie, Vitus, where he pretended to fall and suffer brain injury so he could have normal IQ and experience the life of a normal teenage kid. But it is also mentioned that peers can really influence a kid in this period. Being accepted can lead a kid down many paths.

Ren

Great idea to find the RPG group. That would be an ideal way to meet smart folks and have some good social time.

I agree with you that the math department would be a better bet than the education department. While you might connect with a great education person you are more likely to hit up against misunderstandings about gifted stuff. Math people understand the idea of precocious talent and will be more open to letting her fly through material and get intellectual stimulation and it sounds like that's what she really needs. Also, really they care about math and they won't try to micromanage the rest of her education. I would suggest giving them as few boundaries as possible. So, instead of trying to work through a set curriculum of precalculus (or whatever. Encourage it be a more free forming exploration of whatever interests her and the mentor. That tends to be more satisfying for all involved.

As far as therapy, my thought is that ALL kids coping with a chronic life threatening illness AND their parents deserve the support of a therapist. These are big things to deal with and you all deserve support.

It is great you are looking for new opportunities and experiences. I bet a few months from now she's going to be in a much better place.

Just wanted to add my best wishes and positive thoughts. I really hope that break helps you all take the pressure off and you can reassess it all with fresh eyes and new ideas. Sounds like a lot to deal with and it's no wonder you are all a bit overwhelmed. Hang in there, and good luck, you and your daughter will be in my thoughts.

I don't have any advice either, but I do hope it works out for the best. It sounds like you have so much going on and it must be very hard to work out what the priorities need to be. She obviously has a dedicated family to support her and who have her best interests at heart. You can only do what you can do. I hope you've got some support too. Good luck ((hugs))

Thank you for the advice re: math tutors. It is very helpful.

We learned a few things at the GP's office today.

Most of them weren't things about my daughter... but anyway.


This is the GP that, if asked about my DD (a patient for over a decade at this point) and her IQ, would only be able to hazard a guess at "above average, probably." So we've known for a long time that he isn't much of a believer in LOG or anything else that makes a child need something "different" in the way of education. He's not much of a fan of HSing, either. Whatever.

He started by asking DD (5'1" and 85lbs, down from 93 lb in Dec) about her eating habits, food preferences, etc, and then about general activities, enjoyment of activities, etc. All fine.

Until we got to "school." Yeah, she's not too happy that she recently TANKED a geometry exam... kinda hard class, since she doesn't really know how to study. Oh, I knew we were in trouble when he raised both eyebrows after she told him she was in high school classes.

"What's your HURRY?!!" he asked... and then proceeded to regale her for over ten minutes with how kids, especially smart kids, shouldn't be in such a hurry to get through school too fast, because, well, after that there's just college, and then what comes after college? W.O.R.K. And boy, THEN the fun stops...


He also introduced anecdotes about how all the people he meets... apparently ALL of them recall their "best" times as high school and college years. (Yeah, I'm thinking he needs to get out more, too... because he sure as heck hasn't asked ME that question...) After that, it's all downhill, I guess.

DD frostily interrupted his monologue at this point to crisply note that SHE is hoping to find that some chosen pursuits are their OWN rewards... IE, 'fun' on some level. And that perhaps, just maybe, being smart would give her an edge in doing something meaningful like that. He SNORTED at her and pointed out that he was plenty smart-- after all, smart enough to be a doctor... (Yes, I bit my tongue there. HARD. I was dying to use a favorite joke among science professors.... but didn't.) But that he was plenty happy just to skate along even in pretty boring and repetitive classes, just being thrilled that he could get his A in half the time and use the rest for... FUN!

Besides, he continued... do you actually know any _____ (DD's current chosen career aspirations-- attorney and 'scientist of some kind' are currently on the list)?? Well?? Because those people will tell you that most of what they do is pretty boring and repetitive. (He literally wouldn't let her get a word in edgewise here.) Gee, thanks for ripping apart my 11yo's very realistic career aspirations, WHICH, I might add, suit her natural tendencies well and are not too narrow given her age and academic placement.

<thud-thud-thud> <--- inside, at least, the sound of my head hitting the exam table.

She was too stunned to do anything but blink at him.

He took that as a signal to continue, apparently. After that, he pointed out that he knew a whole bunch of "smart" people like himself who DELIGHTED in those college years, and he "knew this one girl who went to college at 15" (she was in a big hurry too, I guess) and she could handle the material just fine, but apparently she was MISERABLE since she didn't fit in socially. Ohhh, yes, so sad. Moral is-- be a slacker as long as you can, you'll be in the harness with the other oxen soon enough.

___________________________________


Yeah. Not too thrilled with Dr. Feelgood, there, at the moment.

Is it even POSSIBLE to have said anything WORSE than this to a radically accelerated PG child who is very obviously in a CRISIS of existential depression??



I wanted to SMACK him. I think it is mark of the truly exceptional social skills possessed by the HG+ people in that room that oen of us didn't snidely say, "Wow. You have optimal intelligence. That's great for you, but, um... that isn't the child I have to raise. Thanks," and that the other one didn't (though I could tell it crossed her mind fleetingly) mention, "It sounds as though you could have used some of that "fun" time for a little more introspection on careers that might have provided you with more personal meaning."


I did finally interrupt him to (tersely, I'm sure) point out that if she WOULD 'just do' sixth grade, that is where the school would have her PLACED. He quickly back-pedaled and said, that no, no, no-- he wasn't really saying that her placement was all wrong or that we were PUSHING her too hard... his point was apparently about PERFECTIONISM.

Well, okay then. I must have missed that part. Because the "lighten up" message was kind of getting buried in the "you're too young to be in high school" and "it's all downhill from here" parts of things. UGH. Unbelievable.


On the bright side, we DID get a psych referral to a specialist in EDs. Who knows whether or not she knows a darned THING about HG children or adolescents, or anything at all about my DD's disability. But if she tweaks disability management, at least I won't be alone in my desire to shake some sense into her. DD's specialist physician will want to be FIRST in that line.

I asked DD after the appointment, "So what did you think of what Dr. {Feelgood} was saying in there?"

She said that she just plain doesn't think he understands that repetition and being told to do work over and over and over again is just intolerable, and that challenge and learning NEW stuff is fun. She also mentioned somewhat tentatively that she thinks he might not be right about waiting until college to learn "real" study skills via being challenged. (good girl!!!) But that she thinks he might have a point about having more social stuff going on. We just have to have a way to fit it in. She's got a LOT of extracurricular stuff going on, and she won't give any of it up. It all matters to her, and even trying to 'rank' them in priority order is hard, because they shift around. (Fair enough.)

When I asked her specifically about social fit and peers, she responded:

"Well, with kids 13 and 14, if I can get them to GIVE me that first chance-- you know, sometimes they don't, because they assume that I'm too little-- but if they give me a chance, or don't KNOW how young I am, they seem to like me better and better as they get to know me. With kids 10-11 years old, they like me really well at first. But they like me less and less the more they get to know me." (she was just thoughtful as she said that, so I asked her why she thought that was so)

"I think that when I start to get to know them, I mention books and ideas and jokes and stuff that they've never even heard of. It makes me seem weirder and weirder. But the older kids, some of them 'get' me, and even the ones that don't at least know kind of what I'm talking about a lot of the time. So not as weird."

I'm thinking that if the doctor hadn't been so determined to tell her how miserable a 15 yo college student will be, he might have learned something FROM HER. Bleh. Maybe the psych consult was to fix whatever he accomplished with his little pep talk, or something.

I'm thinking he's probably not a fan of radical acceleration. Good thing his opinion isn't the one that mattered.

Oh, HowlerKarma, what a horrible experience. It sounds as though you and your DD handled it as well as possible, and I'm glad you got the referral, but.... arrrggghhhh.

I would have had a hard time with that. Very presumptuous of him to pass judgement on your daughter's academic placement when he's only just hearing about it.

I'm surprised he would spent so much time going off on what seems kind of tangential when your daughter has lost almost 10% of her body weight in 3 months.

So to what degree do you address your daughter's depression and possible ED independently of her giftedness, if at all? Seems like you are going to have to deal with doctors and mental health professionals on this, yet the issues are not so separate from her intellectual abilities as a strictly physical illness would be.

I watched a relative go through this and while I know my judging makes me seem very ugly, years later I still feel like the severity of her problems could have been mitigated if she'd been provided with more external structure, been kept on a consistent schedule, kept off caffeine and sugar, gotten some exercise, and been given more instrution on and opportunity to engage in basic life skills tasks. I think when school is rough going it's good to have an alternatives that can also provide a sense of acomplishment. not necessarily acomplishments that earn accolades, but an internal sense of scomplishment that comes from maintaining yourself and your immediate envirnoment - making your bed, having a garden, cooking a meal, caring for an animal etc.

Not harsh or ugly at all-- honest.

I agree that 'school' cannot be allowed to escalate the problem, and that we need to pull back to a position of, well-- almost guaranteed success, if you will-- so that she can feel empowered to control herself and her environment the way she wants to. (After all, ED's are fundamentally about control.) Some things that we've done (as a family) to help us on that front:

a) DD making meals both for herself and for family

b) I 'tossed' her room (gracious, that child is half packrat, I swear, tucking little caches of mixed junk under and into anywhere it'll fit)-- while this sounds cruel, she actually NEEDS the experience of sorting through all of the miscellany and putting things where they belong. DECIDING where they belong, even. She needs the personal sense of accomplishment, and she's been working on that the past couple of days as time permits.

c) she takes care of her dog and her rabbit, so she has "chores" where another creature is dependent upon her.

All of that is an opportunity for authentic praise for real effort/contribution, and we're definitely giving it.

DD may or may not have an ED. We don't know, but we also are not playing around with that particular booklet of matches, either. Hopefully the psych consult can tell us more there. In any case, the perfectionism needs to be dealt with pronto. I think that this may have been a semi-deliberate cry for help on her part, actually, since she's now clearly begun eating again in the past few days, and I didn't get the sense that it was to prevent us from seeking outside help. More out of response to our obvious level of concern.

I, too, am not sure that there is a means of dealing with this without considering her giftedness, since that is part and parcel of it. Part and parcel of who she is, actually. We shall see what we see with the therapist she's been referred to.

Luckily the school is cooperating and is actually fairly helpful. Moreso than Doctor Life-sucks-and-then-you-die, at any rate.

The insomnia and sleep disturbances are probably a genetic thing. (Let's just say it's about 3A.M. here...)

But the lying and furtive 'sneaking' sure aren't... and honestly, why on earth am I finding my child ROAMING my house two hours after her bedtime, fully awake and lying to me about the reasons for her meandering? Sheesh. Kids.

((Humor Alert))
Can you give me that Doc Optimal's phone number, because once in a while I need someone who will play the role of the bad guy so that DS will see how good he has it with DH and I. Oh wait - never mind - Boarding school is doing that job for me now, what a relief!

More seriously - I don't think there is a snowball's chance in 'you know were' that you dd is actually going to 'listen and obey' Doc Optimal. I love what she got out of it, and think it show serious maturity. Oh, and - if her medical condition allows, maybe it's time to consider getting a new MD? I think she's old enough to work with an Internist, who are generally considered the brightest of the primary care bunch, and if nothing else, usually very quiet by nature. We were so blessed to have a pediatrician who was more than OG himself and provided a firm, warm presence to those early years. Of course he was my Internist's Favorite Pediatrician.

OT - sometimes I thought that what my son really needed from me, was a fake birth certificate!

I understand that your daughter likes kids a little bit older, but it is hard to mix in this age -- as girls get very interested in boys. Although some stuff will cross, there is big changes socially. Having been younger in high school, I found my closest friends basically skipped grades too. Being younger in the social environment together really helped.

Ren