I'm at my wits' end. Truly. Please forgive me, this is long and desperate, and I could have put it in "educational environments" but it seems more like a parenting issue. I guess.

DD11 has been with a virtual school for five years. I've told that story elsewhere, probably ad nauseum. She is now an 8th grader, but she has a high school placement. This year was supposed to be when everything finally "changed," but the only real change has been that DD seems to feel that she's been sold a pig in a poke in a big way. I sense that the adults (maybe including us) have lost a lot of credibility as a result of just how much MOTS high school has turned out to be.

Our options are:

virtual school
homeschool

This isn't just because of the giftedness issues. Like Bronxmom, we have a medical limitation we're working with, too. In the right environment, however, DD is for all intents and purposes NON-DISABLED. That's important.

Each winter, (~November to about March, roughly) we have an awful time getting her to work. It isn't that the quality] drops off-- the motivation and effort to do ANY OF IT does. The work that she produces is still easily top-notch relative to the standards set by the curriculum, and it doesn't really take her any longer to actually produce that work-- when she can be badgered into compliance, that is. The school sets very few "deadlines" on the kids-- they are supposed to work as scheduled, but if they get four, or even six or ten weeks, behind, it doesn't matter... until it matters. That is, the end of the semester, IT MATTERS; anything left incomplete becomes a zero at that point. These are her high school transcripts, even though she's 11, and she seems to take that quite seriously. She likes earning top grades and is an honor society student.

Now, we're not averse to push-parenting-- which is a good thing, since DD is not and has never been terribly good at self-directed learning for any length of time or outside of her flavor-of-the-day interest. She's easily as gifted socially/interpersonally as she is academically, so she is about as skillful a manipulator as I've ever met, including adults in academia. There's no way that we are "unschooling" material; not happening.

Here are the problems that are long-standing (most of these are related to being an EG/PG kid without a good educational fit, obviously):

• refusal to do work
• perfectionism-- meaning that she "hoards" assignments like a paper dragon in her lair until her fear of our wrath > fear of "failure" (missing a single question on a multiple choice quiz/other assessment... which is not entirely irrational on her part... more on this later*)
• failure to focus on work for any length of time unless under DIRECT supervision (and I do mean 'direct' as in same ROOM isn't always enough unless you pay attention)-- she will read, draw, or play computer games at CoolMath or something instead of working)
• you can't get two days of work out of her in a row-- I'm lucky to get three a week.
• snappishness and anger when parents make suggestions/inquiries re: schoolwork
• strenuously resists any and all attempts by us to schedule her school day... and even when SHE helps to devise a schedule, she seems to take some perverse pleasure in wrecking it after a day or so-- it's really odd
• lack of study skills-- because she never NEEDED to learn them when they were teaching all this stuff back in 4th-6th grade, she simply ignored it and compensated by doing things her way... which has now devolved into something fairly dysfunctional at the high school level.
• sleep disturbances-- mostly insomnia, but some oversleeping and sleep deficit problems in a general sense, too.
• loathing of "school" as being boring/torturous/MOTS/repetitive-- so generally, lack of any kind of motivation.
• general lassitude that spills over into every area of our family's life-- "school" becomes endless, consuming every evening, every weekend, and making home a living Hades for us all.

* The reason that we don't categorize this as purely a 'perfectionism' issue and also frame it as a curricular one is that some of these courses rely as much as 70% on multiple choice assessments-- and as many as 2-5% of them are ambiguously worded or technically incorrect-- which DD definitely notices and stresses out over. Her problem isn't that she's OVER-estimating the relative importance of missing a few things-- but that she is too precisely aware of just how costly they are. If that makes sense. She has a few perfectionistic tendencies, but this is a different type of stressor overall.

New and worrying:

1)lies-lies-lies.... my gosh, I can't trust ANYTHING that she says... she lies with such ease and fluency that it quite literally boggles the mind. She lies about crap that doesn't even MATTER-- and she knows that lying, above ALL other infractions, is the fastest way to get into very hot water around here with mom and dad,

2) she's almost stopped eating, claiming that "nothing tastes good" and that she just feels nauseous all the time... though she's still sneaking candy, so we don't think it's necessarily anorexia or anything like that... might be stress, could well be a medical problem related to her known medical issues (heavens, that's ALL we need)

3)she's finally reached the critical point where her ad hoc and unorthodox methods of 'study' are not effective (well, okay, in geometry, anyway-- and the fall-off grade-wise is VERY stark), and she has no idea what to do, but she's angry as all heck at US for suggesting she do anything different. This is the first time that she doesn't "just know" the material without effort, and she is furious with the world over this.

4) flakiness/lack of motivation has now spilled over into some extracurriculars that she previously was VERY committed to-- piano and a youth organization she's part of. It's been so bad at times that we've speculated that her poor piano teacher needs hazard pay.


_________________________________________________

Here's what I have tried to ask for from the school--

• placement options to minimize bad fit (this is about as good as it gets without writing curriculum especially FOR her)
• is this "normal" in terms of psychology?? (the level of defiance/resistance just seems SO extreme for a child this age)
• should we be having her evaluated by someone?? For WHAT, exactly?? (I mean, the bottom line is that this is pretty clearly existential depression combined with something else... it's seasonal, and it seems to be progressive and entirely ameliorated during June-October.)
• Help... just... help... from special ed (she has a 504 plan for her medical condition, but our state doesn't offer GIEPs at all, and does little but "identify" gifted children... and then throw extra worksheets and projects at them while teaching them in undifferentiated classrooms.)

I'm getting NOWHERE with any of that. We don't think that this is truly ADD, since it seems entirely situational and voluntary (other than the affective issues) and from everything we can tell, differentiating that from GT-related problems is practically impossible here anyway. Are her EF a little less than required for high school? Probably-- she's eleven, after all. The trouble is, I can't find anyone associated with the school who will even talk to me about executive skills and what "normal" even LOOKS like at this age. I've had it up to HERE with other parents who are looking for flaws in DD or our parenting, and offering criticisms about how their own optimally gifted or teacher-pleaser kids are so responsible and organized at this age, however. Yes, DD is like the Pigpen of PAPER... but she always has been (at home), and up until recently, she had sufficient working memory that she really could just sort of track all of it just fine. It's a skill deficit, not an inherent limitation, we think. That coupled with the fact that there isn't really any peer pressure to conform, and, well...

She also has a best friend(probably HG and ADD-- she's like a hummingbird) who is (alluringly-- nay, tantalizingly) UN-schooled-- yes, endless summer vacation (Augh-- sure, DD, what kid wouldn't love that idea... have your friend talk to me again when she's 30, okay?) This is my daughter's ONLY real friend, though, so much as I worry that it may be contributing to DD's manipulation of this situation, we're very reluctant to limit contact.

Kindness and understanding don't work, threats and screaming work... but at such a high cost that it can't possibly be "right" (can it??) and I truly don't know what else to try. I can't work outside the home until DD is more independent, so even homeschooling conventionally is going to present us with some serious financial challenges. Plus we have the problems associated with going it alone, then-- no transcripts, etc.


Help! I could really use thoughts from other parents that really do have kids like mine. Is some of this just normal adolescent, hormonally-fueled angst?? Would removing her from the virtual school help? (That may be a one-way ride, fwiw-- there is a lengthy waitlist and an enrollment cap if we withdraw her) How on earth do we help her?? The stress is just about intolerable for all three of us.

I am so sorry for you and your dd you are going through all of this. I know you have said you don't think this is the issue--but I am going to throw out ADD inattentive anyway--most of your bullet points could be explained by it. I hope you get some good advice from others.

This sounds hard.

About the poor sleeping and seasonal low mood, have you considered melatonin? Or maybe health issues rule this out for your DD?

Also, to get out of the power-struggle stalemates, I've been trying the Nurtured Heart Approach that I read about on this board.

This is just a thought from someone who knows a number of gifted kids that did not have the best time with online virtual school. She's 11 needing high input. But is she necessarily ready to produce the output and have the attention span and focus necessary to *really* do high school as a high achieving student? It may just simply be a case of asynchronous development. And she may be acting out due to poor fit.

I have a 10 year who is working at least at 8th to 9th+ grade level across the boards. But I know if I tried doing a virtual (or real) school at this point we'd either need to sacrifice the appropriate academic level for whatever output he could produce or vice versa. I think if I tried to get him to produce the output that a 9th grader does, he would be pushing back in a matter of minutes.

So we're "eclectic" homeschoolers. And I'm very cheap. We use our library quite a bit and I usually go with cheap curriculum (like Singapore). If I get 4-5 days a week with 2-3 hours in for my 10 year old I'm happy. He's still wildly ahead and he's enjoying himself too. Other than that he focuses on many extracurriculars (circus, piano, engineering team, swimming lessons, reading, etc).

I will also say, winter is hard. I think it's hard for kids in school and kids homeschooled and parents everywhere. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with other parents banging their heads against the wall in the past month.

I do think you should definitely follow up on the not eating thing in case something else could be going on.

I know, right. Everybody's got these opposing views on childraising and want to tell you so. The following is not answers, it's thoughts.
Yoga makes you cool and centered, bicycling makes you starving. I drag my kid on walks once a week. Oh. It will be swimming season soon! Not just to make her eat more but just because. You can't control everything but you can adjust the outside time, active inside time, and quiet inside time. Adjust it until it feels good. Plus take longer when you're cooking to let the smell waft and change. Start things at different times so the smell of cooking dinner changes several times. It makes you hungrier. Don't worry about it all being hot at the same time, that's the least of your worries. There's a microwave. Adjust these things until it feels good to you. The Mamma is the heart of the house.

Can your daughter do her work ahead and be done with it? I guess you have the virtual school for a reason. Plus it's streamlined.

Play with her with her diet since she's not eating anyway. Try healthy trendy diets- vegetarian, raw food itarian, juicer/smoothies. At least she'll be thinking about nutrition then. Smoothie-juicer. Live like a fairy on fruits, nuts, and berries. Put 1/2 glass of ice water, 2 yogurts,1 banana, and frozen fruit for color/flavor in a blender, top off with milk. I think it has vitamins and protein. I got the eating/ not eating cycle, but mine's 3 yrs old. He won't eat then he's a bottomless pit. I make a plate for him every meal and give it to the dogs if he don't eat it. I've got a terrible quote, "if you don't eat you don't poop. If you don't poop you die. So eat poop and live.". Ha-ha, real mature.

Okay, quick response to get some thought processes started.

First and foremost, it sounds to me like there are a lot of issues that may be getting lumped into a single problem. My first advice is to ask if you can break the big problem down into a group of smaller constituent problems. Then address one at a time. You may wish to start with the smaller ones if possible. That way a larger number of niggly little things can disappear. This can reduce mental clutter and ameliorate larger problems.

Some ideas, mostly hewing to the idea that actions speak louder than words (including shouts):

* How many extracurriculars are there? Can you jettison one or more? If she agrees, you'll reduce stress and scheduled time. If she objects, explain that it's too bad, because of x, y, and/or z. If she wants them back, she'll have to do x, y, and/or z.

* Can you let her sleep until she wakes up? As children become adolescents they need more sleep and tend to sleep later.

* Pick one academic thing and schedule it, say, four days a week for 45 minutes. Be firm about enforcing this small schedule. Pick something she likes.

I'm kind of confused about the virtual school thing. What does this mean? Do you homeschool and follow a curriculum? If you're at home all day, it seems reasonable to let her sleep until she wakes up, even if this means letting her sleep until 11 am. I did this as a kid and into my 20s (and still do on many Sundays). It doesn't stop me from being productive.

Okay, must go. HTH.

Val

Okay. I'm seeing things that make me think, "Don't tolerate this."

For example, school shouldn't spill over into everyone's life and make you all miserable. Your daughter also needs to learn to do stuff without someone in the room supervising her; this is an essential life skill.

My suggestion: I've been through homework resistance with my eldest. I think it's normal to a degree, but it was going overboard. So I got very tough (DH too), and was very consistent about it. He had to do it, no complaints, and no way was he going to be doing homework at 9 p.m. If it wasn't done by 8:30, it was too bad.

My opinion is that it's a bad idea to let a school situation dominate your lives. If for no other reason, this is because it can let your daughter believe that she is the center of attention, and rightly so. Well, Mom and Dad and others also have a right to do stuff they want to do.


I'm thinking it you might want to consider letting her fail. Resistance to homework is normal and too much homework doesn't really teach much IMHO. But beyond that, everyone, EVERYONE, has to learn how to do stuff they don't want to do. This includes working when you'd rather be playing.

As per my earlier post, actions speak louder than words, and it may be time for firm and consistent actions.

HTH; bedtime for kids!

Above all else, these are just my ideas and YMMV.

For girls, I find the most extreme behavior occurs around age 11-12 and then eases up a bit. This tends to be delayed in boys by a year or two. I dealt with my now ex's daughter (undiagnosed) during these years and it was quite frankly a nightmare. My cousin had boys with ADHD and I would describe the age 12-13 behavior of one of them as nothing short of abusesive towards the mom. So yes, there is a hormonal or life stage aspect to this. These are cases of very extreme behavior. Although the behavior tends to become milder in later years, you then have all the teenage issues to deal with.

Whatever parent was the child's favorite will receive the greatest level of abuse and will be the one the child will least listen to. Parents are now the enemy and the favorite one is at the top of the list. Often children will behave fairly well outside the home, so you can expect the outside world to have no idea of what you are dealing with and will direct the blame on the parents.

In the case of the 11 year old I dealt with, her biological father took her right up to the doors of an all girls religious school to register her. She backed down a lot and it solved some of the school problems. I don't believe in threats, but it did work to some degree. If you can stick to it, you may consider cutting her off everything she likes for long enough to get through to her. This however can be a 24/7 effort on your part for a good month before it begins to work. It also needs everyone involved to cooperate on this plan (rarely does this happen). Sometimes another adult less familiar to the child can get through to them.

You may find extreme changes in talent during this stage. Hard to say which way and in what subjects you will see the changes.

It would not hurt to look into diet and sleep as others have mentioned, further psychological evaluation and medical testing. Don't get your hopes up on finding a solution through further evaluation any time soon. I am no expert, just a person with some experience.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention one other thing. During heightened emotional states, the information the brain is able to access during normal emotional states is often not available. When you speak to your child, she may not even be aware of what you are saying to her. She may have difficulty doing even simple tasks she was once able to do. The hormones may be putting her into a continuous emotional state she was not normally in. One of the children I had mentioned actually said they could not understand a word said to them when the parents were yelling at them.

One of the reasons for these hormonal and emotional state changes, which begin from the time the child is in the crib, is to allow the brain to relearn much of what has been learned during the normal states. Certain children are more apt to having extreme parts of knowledge disconnected during these states than other children.

The best way to think of this is to realize in some ways your child is now functioning at the level of a much younger child. This is only temporary, but it does help the brain to learn information useful later in life when these emotional states are triggered. People who fail to learn during these early childhood cycles will often freeze up during traumatic events. They are literally unable to talk or walk.

By the way, the behavior you are seeing will probably calm down occasionally for short periods and then flare up again.

And one other thing, in the two extreme cases I mentioned, the children both suddenly took an interest in guitar (I think it had a cool aspect to it) once this one to two year cycle had ended. It did go a long ways towards keeping them occupied during the teenage years (they are still not through them yet).

Rest assured - you are not alone. We have a similar story - too long for here. Quick thoughts?
Like us, they are searching for meaning. How long could you stick at something you found meaningless?
Support her in her search for meaning.
Remember Einstein didn't fit into any "institution".
We are on our 6th school in 3rd country, and at times I too am at wits end. But it passes. Stay strong.

My 2pworth comes mostly from my memory of being an adolescent girl, not from the parental side. Just throwing it out:

- it really doesn't sound as though the virtual school is a good fit. (Assessment mostly by dubious multiple choice - eek!) It sounds as though you're seeing the transcripts as a major benefit - but is that really important? Plenty of homeschoolers without formal school involvement seem to get into good universities.

- you have years in hand at this point, in the sense that your DD is years ahead of her age peers. Could you maybe relax a bit and use one of them now? I guess this may mean undoing the idea that she's in "high school" now, but she's going to be the kind of applicant whose application needs to be looked at by a human rather than a computer, anyway, so surely that needn't be a problem. I think if I were you I'd offer time-limited unschooling, along the lines of "we'll do it this way for a year, and then reevaluate. If by then you've learned how to challenge yourself and work consistently to your own plan, and you want to continue, we'll certainly consider it, or maybe it'll make sense to go to timetabled schooling, or something in between. But we expect it to take a while for you to establish a pattern and we want to take the pressure off, so we won't worry about what it is you learn in that year: you choose."

- adolescence really can be that bad especially when one lacks friends and doesn't feel as though one fits in. Depression, even suicide, and anorexia are real and serious problems. Sneaking sweets does not rule out anorexia (actually, quite the reverse). Please take this seriously. Your DD clearly has a lot to cope with. Could you get her a good psychotherapist? Also, does she have trusted adults to talk to other than her parents (and if she has but doesn't see them often, can you quietly arrange more access)? Both might really help.

Another plagiarized idea from here, hiring college students as tutors might be cheap per hour. They might help her study that thing she has to study right now and she might let them because they're cooler than you. I don't want to sound like her school's more important than you guyses' health and sanity, but i hope the suggestion relieves some suffering. Plus they can show her study habits without nagging. They can get away with suggesting a lot more than you can and without losing popularity.

I read in the database that pg parents should have a therapist as a general rule because there's just so much to figure out while you're raising them. Maybe DYS has a directory of therapists screened, rated, and well-suited for you to talk to. Ok. I used the database search (see link upper left corner) for a therapist, I guess this is all they have:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/Searc...ontend&site=dgdb_all&q=Therapist

K. I'm a go read "teaching cheetah's to hunt" while my cub finishes nursing, lol.

I agree a lot with the other comments, look at it from the child's side. My comments were related more to circumstances where I was not in control and able to do what I would have done.

Punishment, threats, yelling and deal making is not what I feel is necessarily appropriate. The child may be having real problems with little control over herself. Talk calmly about any topics you can get a response out of, not necessarily about the problems or school. Take walks, get outdoors, do some new things. It sounds like your daughter may not deal well with too much time indoors given the seasonal aspect. Don't ask her to do anything on her own, ask her to do things with you.

Take it seriously as was said and worry about how she feels. What worries me in this case is the lying. This can be anything from a temporary phase to a serious issue. I really don't know if any of these ideas of right in this case.

I agree with Jamiett. My daughter went through the same thing at that age. She is better with other people than she is with me. It is heartbreaking, but it does get better when the hormones get straightened out a little.

Can you bring someone else in on her studies - such as her father? For some reason, my daughter listens to him a little more. This is def a mother/daughter issue.

1) Professional to rule out Depression and ADHD
2) Medical to follow up on the eating thing.
3) Keep up with the Dentist if she is going to be living on candy for a while
4) Take her out of the virtual High School - going to high school is a privilege, she need to demonstrate that she is ready for High School Level output - independently and politely - before you agree for her to stay with the program.
5) Is she well enough to enroll in a community college class or university class AS AN AUDITOR. Hire a tutor to give tests and papers based on her product level.
6) Is she well enough to visit Reno and apply to Davidson Academy? It may not make sense to send her there, but I think going through the admission process, and meeting other kids like herself, might be helpful.

You say that she has 'interest of the day' - if so, let her pursue them. You have tried your best to slow her down all these years - she is asking to slow down with her behavior, so take advantage! Maybe don't think of it as unschooling, just as a Sabbatical without Internet Access?

OTOH, Maybe working on her current studies 2 days a week is perfect for her. But I wouldn't continue at any level she can't work independently at.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I don't know if you've read the book Living with Intensity but it may be helpful.

I think it also couldn't hurt to contact Patricia Gatto-Walden on this--IMO she seems to particularly get gifted girls and women.

Hi, just a note on our ds10, the season of just not being able to get up in the morning, achiness, etc., starts around here in Nov., and doesn't let up through winter, it seems. Does your ds have other physical complaints besides just not feeling up to things? I had considered it was just the result of school being a HUGE nothing for him. Summer he is perfect.

Of course every bug on earth is going around Nov-May so that is always something to consider but we are prone to sinus infections, so I have lately been much more aggressive in treating a sinus infection, running humidifiers, etc.
Ds was also depressed around age 8/9, so I keep a lookout for that as well, but overall I think we have finally solved some of this with the sinus infection angle. I do hope you find your solution.

I have a friend up the street who's daughter is now doing virtual high school while she deals with sinus related issues (also gt), this was leading to very poor sleep, general inability to get out of bed, etc. (We also saw dark circles under ds' eyes, tummy aches<-- not able to eat, especially in the morning, neck pain, crankiness)

I wonder if your daughter is a closet eater. My cousin's son is like this and to him eating is as private as having sex is to some people. He does not only not want his parents to know he eats, but he does not even want them to see him getting food. He's gotten better with the getting food part. But it's been years since anyone has seen him eat. His private eating places are his room and the bathroom. He hides the plates under his bed, in closets and various other places. So you might want to ensure your daughter has the ability to sneak healthy food into her secret eating places without fear of being caught. If she is fearful of being caught, she may decide to either not eat or steal food from some other source. Then every so often search for the dishes. I suspect she may be extremely private about almost anything she is doing right now. The lying goes along with this.

About one out of four people in my family have sleep issues. I think it may be Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrom, but nobody has ever been assessed. It is most common in people with Norwegian ancestry, so this fits well with my family. It is not only the sleep phase which is off, but the metabolism also is shifted.

Neither of these may be your daughter's problems, but as so few people have heard of these before, I figured I would mention them. These rare conditions are often unknown to most of the experts. I would not be surprised if the closet eating may be a possibility however.

I very much disagree with this. Sorry Texican!

Sounds like if there is no eating disorder presently, she's setting herself up for one down the line. I agree with the part about educating her about nutrition, but I would discourage any faddish diet. Since she's still young enough for you to exert control I would put a stop to the sneaking candy thing pronto.

I understand your desire to maintain privacy, but it sounds like the medical issues are integral to your daughter's situation so I think the quality of the advice you receive is going to be compromised because of this missing piece of info. Not suggesting your disclose anything, just pointing out the obvious.

It sounds like you are facing bigger issues than just academics. To me, the fact that she is making other family members miserable is a huge red flag. Have you done all the obvious things? Same bedtime every day, same mealtimes every day (eaten sitting at a table), moderate exercise every day, healthy meals, no sugar, no caffeine?

If she's 11 and already doing HS work, is it possible to let her quit school for a while and learn something non-academic (and possibly physical)? Can she get a paper route, mow lawns, be a mother's helper? What about just sending her to a regular school and letting her sink or swim? She might not learn much academically, but perhaps she would become motivated to be responsible for her own work (even if it's not at an appropriate level academically).

One of my sons is at a school where he is not learning anything at all, but my heart just bursts with pride when I see how responsible he is with his homework.

The seasonal component combined with the other depressive symptoms (including the reduced overall appetite with candy cravings) really makes me think about Seasonal Affective Disorder, although the sinus infection possibility mentioned by another poster could also give a similar pattern.

I think a consultation with a medical professional is in order to rule these sorts of things out.

<sniff-sniff>

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I dread talking about this to anyone because it always seems to eventually turn into some kind of blame game involving how DD is obviously not "ready" for the demands "we" have placed on her...

and kcab, your points went straight to my heart. This is exactly why we opted to stop homeschooling in the first place when she was just six-- because DD is pretty resistant to direct instruction from anyone she has an emotionally intimate relationship with. Unfortunately, she's now known her piano teacher long enough that the poor woman seems to have been admitted into DD's inner circle. (Which often seems to amount to one of Dante's circles of hell, fwiw...) Anyone that she does NOT have that kind of relationship with, on the other hand, she may have trust issues with initially. It's a second type of Goldilocks effect for her, and it's tied to the fact that her disability makes her fairly vulnerable to the choices of others. The virtual schooling DOES remove that from the equation.

But I think what another poster said about amount of output is correct. Her disappointment with high school is that it got worse on BOTH fronts-- that is, "more" was required of her... but "less" is, as well, since the courses are actually LESS differentiated, and she's lost touch with the posse of GT kids she used to "run" with in school by virtue of following a 'slower' path through the high school curriculum. (She's out of synch with them now since they took "9th" grade classes this year, and she is off the beaten track a bit.)

I understand the confusion about virtual schooling. Her school days are a bit like a college students', if that helps; that is, she has set class times (net-meetings, synchronous distance class sessions run by the teachers) during the week, and then she completes the class 'work/assignments' outside of that time. This is why there both IS and IS NOT a 'schedule' for completing schoolwork. When it is working in terms of academic fit, it's almost ideal for a PG kid, because they can naturally 'sprint-rest-sprint' through the year as long as they attend class regularly. When it isn't working, however, it's as though you're in free fall with no parachute. The bottom line is that for most kids, "letting them fail" works fine-- because if they don't turn in their homework with everyone else when it is due, bad things happen. If DD doesn't turn in HER work, she just leaves the lesson incomplete. Nothing 'bad' happens, and in most cases, the teachers don't really care. It's only at the end of the marking period that it becomes "a problem." The only way to let her experience the consequences of her actions is for her to literally see what happens when half a term's worth of assignments become zeros in a gradebook overnight, turning a course grade to an F on her high school transcripts. Naturally, we think that this is unlikely to convey the lesson in a way that an 11 yo can 'hear' much less cope with, since the consequence is so removed in time from the behavior itself.

ETA: Hmmm... now that I think about it, though, this may well explain why she's so willing to go that route, in spite of our hectoring/badgering. Avoidance gives an immediate reward (not doing something unpleasant, avoiding possible 'failure') with a nebulous, if severe, punishment looming in the mists of time... compliance risks immediate 'punishment' or disappointment re: perfectionism.

DH and I both agree that high school, for her, has been rather like what an adult would experience if EVERY day on the job were "training" day... day... after... agonizing... day... of... training... workshops. Most of us have had to sit through as much as a week or so of those, and it does rob you of all motivation and leave you an irritable mess. School is absolutely part of the problem, and it is contributing mightily to both perfectionism and to existential depression. In talking calmly with DD last night, I truly feel that she is experiencing problems in both areas.

On the other hand, task tolerance is a HUGE issue for DD and always has been. She's definitely a perfectionist with "quitter" tendencies. She does NOT push herself. She never has. So parenting-wise, we've been approaching things as Val indicates.


We've wondered about SAD for years because of the seemingly seasonal nature of this phenomenon, but it's impossible to really separate that (for us) from the cycle of the academic school year.

We have an appointment with our GP tomorrow, and hopefully we can get a referral to someone who can actually offer her some help, or at least help us get to the bottom of things if there is an underlying medical cause (and that is a possibility, and a worrying one).

Again, thank you. This is more genuine help than we have ever had, and I really can't put into words how grateful I am.

I'm wondering... is removing that from the equation entirely actually a good thing at this point in her life? It sounds like the virtual school is removing a lot of possibility for growth. If the stakes are so big she can't be allowed to feel the consequences of her behavior in the form of failing a class that's really missing out on important learning opportunities.

I'd say it is a rare HG or PG kid that finds one school solution works for their most or all of their school career. I think that's one of the most frustrating thing about parenting gifted kids is that you have to be ever open to the possibility of change.

For what it is worth, I've known a few preteens who were very happy and successful with homeschooling or virtual schooling when they were younger, but then became really discontent as they hit the preteen and early teen years. They got lonely. They needed to stretch their wings to more in real life academic situations. They needed more trusted mentors and friends. Of course, kids may not have the clarity to realize this and explain it to their parents... they just deteriorate and hope we figure it out. I understand that other options may not always be possible, but when you are seeing such a meltdown I'm wondering if there are any other possible options at this point. One gentle transition might be to move away from full time virtual school to a homeschooling that includes some higher quality online component (as in courses with stuff other than a bunch of multiple choice courses) as well as bringing in more tutors or mentors.

PTP, thank you for being honest.

This is a message that I have a hard time hearing. I'm very sensitive to assertions of "oversheltering" or "helicopter" parenting, because that is what our vigilance can look like; coupled with the natural assumptions that a lot of people make re: hothousing of GT kids, and it's probably obvious why I often hear "enmeshment" when someone says "stretch their wings". (Enmeshment = categorically untrue.)

I understand what you are saying, though, and I think you are correct. She's lonely and miserable, and some of it isthe school situation and how badly it fits.

We need to figure out HOW to transition without risking her life unduly in the process, that's all.

I spoke with the school counselor, and we hammered out at least where we think the big problems are, which is some progress. The perfectionism coupled with the assessments that are feeding that perfectionism.... eh. I may have my own work-around for that one, but the school does not.

I can: a) give her a GROUP of assessments rather than just three or four questions on a single one, or b) I can rewrite the questions as short-answer format and have her do THOSE, then she can 'choose' her answers on the assessments based on her well-considered written responses... thereby short-circuiting the low-level assessments.

I can't fix the curricular materials themselves, unfortunately... which means that my daughter has already read the rest of the literature selections this year for her English class.


We have tentatively planned to have independent study on the table next year in leiu of another bonehead elective. It may need to be more than one. The counselor was also open to the idea of having her take a college level course for dual credit. (This also isn't really new-- it was something we planned to do anyway starting in sophomore year.)

We also think that a tutor/mentor in math, in particular, would be a terrific thing. We will have to choose carefully, and hope that the person understands that we really aren't kidding about DD's disability.

DD knows that she needs to develop study skills. We have a tentative plan for that.

We will also need to hothouse EF for the next few months/years if she's to enter college coursework earlier than we were hoping.

Her social skills may be excellent, but the highly limited opportunities to use them and to build a social network are making her feel very isolated and alien.

We are examining whether or not we could afford to transition to homeschooling with some higher quality distance components (local colleges offer some on-line coursework and some hybrid courses, and of course there are EPGY offerings).


We are also going to closely examine the medical side of things. (Saying that with my heart in my throat-- none of the possibilities are 'good' there; I'd almost RATHER that it were a mental health issue.)

DD is very resistant to seeing a therapist; she positively BRISTLED at the very idea and informed me that she didn't want some head-shrinker telling her "that I'm messed up or defective." <sigh> We clearly have our work cut out for us.

HK,

I have no advice, but I really hope things go well at the GP. The EF issues and your dd's comments about her disability resonate with our own experience with dd and PG/2E...
Best,
Chrys

Oh, and I'm calling a moratorium to further schoolwork for the next week, maybe two. She can do work on study skills with the special ed teacher, but enough is enough.

We're all tired, and we need to figure out the physiological problems DD is having.

DD is deeply concerned about a hiatus-- she asked me if I'd assign her a research paper or something in the interim. (Augh)

I think that she needs to think about her situation having taken a step backwards so that she can see the forest for the trees. Right now she's hacking through the underbrush, and I'm a little concerned that she's going to start hacking off digits given how things are going. Time to calm down a bit will be time well-spent.

Just to be perfectly clear, I didn't say or imply enmeshment or helicopter parenting. I can't imagine saying that to anyone and especially not to someone I don't even know.

When I say "stretch their wings" I'm talking about something I've seen with plenty of preteens and teens in happy functional families. The desire for kids to have more contact outside of the family and to have more academic experiences with other teachers and mentors is a really normal thing. And, isn't that what we hope for our kids that they will feel capable and desiring of new experiences? I understand you are facing medical issues, that make that transition more complicated. But, the desire to "stretch wings" and having more contact with other people is not evidence that you are too enmeshed or have done something wrong. Instead it is just a sign that while some stuff may not be "normal" there is other stuff that is normal.


There are quite a few good options out there. http://www.lukeion.org/ http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/

Also, I agree with the suggestion to look at grad students or other in real life tutors. Those relationships might go a long way to helping with the lonely part of the equation. And, also, I suspect like a lot of homeschool parents before you it would be the case that she would be more motivated and willing to push herself to deal with some of the challenging stuff like perfectionism.


There are a lot out good people in the world who really enjoy working with capable students. I bet it won't be hard to find someone.


For what it is worth, every teenager I've heard of who complained that they'd never talk to a therapist ended up finding it helpful once they got with somebody good.

I just want to send hugs. Sorry this is so had. I hope you can get away from all of this is some way, like a nice walk or a vacation. Tell her you love her and she is very important to you.

OTGmom, thank you. We do love her dearly, and she is NOT a bad/rotten kid by any stretch. She's actually a wonderful person, and it is just agonizing for us to see her hurting so much. We are very demonstrative with her; she definitely hears how much we love her. Often.

She slept in until almost noon today and then even ate real food at several points during the day, including sitting and eating dinner with us. So that was encouraging.


PTP, I definitely understood that you weren't saying that.

I'm just highly sensitized, as noted. It's hard to maintain a 'healthy' distance in a child who faces a life-threatening chronic problem, YK? It changes all the time, and there are some things you cannot let your child learn "the hard way." All the things that people are willing to say about GT children being their parents' creations (and you know we've all met THEM)... what's a little Munchausen among strangers, eh? (I'm kidding, of course... but I've definitely had people think and even broadly HINT those obnoxious and ignorant things about my family.)



I deeply appreciate the perspective you offered and agree wholeheartedly that building a social life outside of home is much needed right now. She's terribly lonely. DH is going to try to help her find a local RPG to play D&D with or something.

Hopefully DD will find a therapist that she really clicks with. It's very clear that she needs someone who can help her with some of the issues she's struggling with.



We are strongly in favor of a tutor/mentor for math in particular. DH thinks I should contact the Ed department of the local uni. I was thinking that the MATH department might actually be the better shot for someone that would "sync" well with a PG preteen. Wonder what others think about that.


Again, I just want to THANK everyone who has been so kind in offering thoughts and suggestions. It is deeply appreciated, and my DH and I are thankful to have fresh eyes looking at this situation.

Wow! That is a lot to deal with at once. I think that for some outgoing kids, being away from the social whirl of a brick and mortar school can be very lonely. You mentioned the one friend and the likely bad influence -- would it be possible to dilute her influence by expanding physical contact with her peers (not necessary age peers) if medical limitations will allow? Considering how far advance your DD11 is, could you get medical authorization to remove all the pressures of academics for a month or so? It seem that you have valid reasons and her mental health and emotional well-being are so much more important.

I hope it gets better with the approach of spring.

A couple of years ago someone posted the video about Mark Ya and his relationship with Yang Yang as mentor. Yang Yang talked about how few prodigies make it through the adolescent years and continue as musicians because of the what teens go through and the isolation of a performing prodigy's life.

Sometimes the social needs of that period outweigh the academic needs, particularly if they are way ahead. Even that movie, and yes, it is a movie, Vitus, where he pretended to fall and suffer brain injury so he could have normal IQ and experience the life of a normal teenage kid. But it is also mentioned that peers can really influence a kid in this period. Being accepted can lead a kid down many paths.

Ren

Great idea to find the RPG group. That would be an ideal way to meet smart folks and have some good social time.

I agree with you that the math department would be a better bet than the education department. While you might connect with a great education person you are more likely to hit up against misunderstandings about gifted stuff. Math people understand the idea of precocious talent and will be more open to letting her fly through material and get intellectual stimulation and it sounds like that's what she really needs. Also, really they care about math and they won't try to micromanage the rest of her education. I would suggest giving them as few boundaries as possible. So, instead of trying to work through a set curriculum of precalculus (or whatever. Encourage it be a more free forming exploration of whatever interests her and the mentor. That tends to be more satisfying for all involved.

As far as therapy, my thought is that ALL kids coping with a chronic life threatening illness AND their parents deserve the support of a therapist. These are big things to deal with and you all deserve support.

It is great you are looking for new opportunities and experiences. I bet a few months from now she's going to be in a much better place.

Just wanted to add my best wishes and positive thoughts. I really hope that break helps you all take the pressure off and you can reassess it all with fresh eyes and new ideas. Sounds like a lot to deal with and it's no wonder you are all a bit overwhelmed. Hang in there, and good luck, you and your daughter will be in my thoughts.

I don't have any advice either, but I do hope it works out for the best. It sounds like you have so much going on and it must be very hard to work out what the priorities need to be. She obviously has a dedicated family to support her and who have her best interests at heart. You can only do what you can do. I hope you've got some support too. Good luck ((hugs))

Thank you for the advice re: math tutors. It is very helpful.

We learned a few things at the GP's office today.

Most of them weren't things about my daughter... but anyway.


This is the GP that, if asked about my DD (a patient for over a decade at this point) and her IQ, would only be able to hazard a guess at "above average, probably." So we've known for a long time that he isn't much of a believer in LOG or anything else that makes a child need something "different" in the way of education. He's not much of a fan of HSing, either. Whatever.

He started by asking DD (5'1" and 85lbs, down from 93 lb in Dec) about her eating habits, food preferences, etc, and then about general activities, enjoyment of activities, etc. All fine.

Until we got to "school." Yeah, she's not too happy that she recently TANKED a geometry exam... kinda hard class, since she doesn't really know how to study. Oh, I knew we were in trouble when he raised both eyebrows after she told him she was in high school classes.

"What's your HURRY?!!" he asked... and then proceeded to regale her for over ten minutes with how kids, especially smart kids, shouldn't be in such a hurry to get through school too fast, because, well, after that there's just college, and then what comes after college? W.O.R.K. And boy, THEN the fun stops...


He also introduced anecdotes about how all the people he meets... apparently ALL of them recall their "best" times as high school and college years. (Yeah, I'm thinking he needs to get out more, too... because he sure as heck hasn't asked ME that question...) After that, it's all downhill, I guess.

DD frostily interrupted his monologue at this point to crisply note that SHE is hoping to find that some chosen pursuits are their OWN rewards... IE, 'fun' on some level. And that perhaps, just maybe, being smart would give her an edge in doing something meaningful like that. He SNORTED at her and pointed out that he was plenty smart-- after all, smart enough to be a doctor... (Yes, I bit my tongue there. HARD. I was dying to use a favorite joke among science professors.... but didn't.) But that he was plenty happy just to skate along even in pretty boring and repetitive classes, just being thrilled that he could get his A in half the time and use the rest for... FUN!

Besides, he continued... do you actually know any _____ (DD's current chosen career aspirations-- attorney and 'scientist of some kind' are currently on the list)?? Well?? Because those people will tell you that most of what they do is pretty boring and repetitive. (He literally wouldn't let her get a word in edgewise here.) Gee, thanks for ripping apart my 11yo's very realistic career aspirations, WHICH, I might add, suit her natural tendencies well and are not too narrow given her age and academic placement.

<thud-thud-thud> <--- inside, at least, the sound of my head hitting the exam table.

She was too stunned to do anything but blink at him.

He took that as a signal to continue, apparently. After that, he pointed out that he knew a whole bunch of "smart" people like himself who DELIGHTED in those college years, and he "knew this one girl who went to college at 15" (she was in a big hurry too, I guess) and she could handle the material just fine, but apparently she was MISERABLE since she didn't fit in socially. Ohhh, yes, so sad. Moral is-- be a slacker as long as you can, you'll be in the harness with the other oxen soon enough.

___________________________________


Yeah. Not too thrilled with Dr. Feelgood, there, at the moment.

Is it even POSSIBLE to have said anything WORSE than this to a radically accelerated PG child who is very obviously in a CRISIS of existential depression??



I wanted to SMACK him. I think it is mark of the truly exceptional social skills possessed by the HG+ people in that room that oen of us didn't snidely say, "Wow. You have optimal intelligence. That's great for you, but, um... that isn't the child I have to raise. Thanks," and that the other one didn't (though I could tell it crossed her mind fleetingly) mention, "It sounds as though you could have used some of that "fun" time for a little more introspection on careers that might have provided you with more personal meaning."


I did finally interrupt him to (tersely, I'm sure) point out that if she WOULD 'just do' sixth grade, that is where the school would have her PLACED. He quickly back-pedaled and said, that no, no, no-- he wasn't really saying that her placement was all wrong or that we were PUSHING her too hard... his point was apparently about PERFECTIONISM.

Well, okay then. I must have missed that part. Because the "lighten up" message was kind of getting buried in the "you're too young to be in high school" and "it's all downhill from here" parts of things. UGH. Unbelievable.


On the bright side, we DID get a psych referral to a specialist in EDs. Who knows whether or not she knows a darned THING about HG children or adolescents, or anything at all about my DD's disability. But if she tweaks disability management, at least I won't be alone in my desire to shake some sense into her. DD's specialist physician will want to be FIRST in that line.

I asked DD after the appointment, "So what did you think of what Dr. {Feelgood} was saying in there?"

She said that she just plain doesn't think he understands that repetition and being told to do work over and over and over again is just intolerable, and that challenge and learning NEW stuff is fun. She also mentioned somewhat tentatively that she thinks he might not be right about waiting until college to learn "real" study skills via being challenged. (good girl!!!) But that she thinks he might have a point about having more social stuff going on. We just have to have a way to fit it in. She's got a LOT of extracurricular stuff going on, and she won't give any of it up. It all matters to her, and even trying to 'rank' them in priority order is hard, because they shift around. (Fair enough.)

When I asked her specifically about social fit and peers, she responded:

"Well, with kids 13 and 14, if I can get them to GIVE me that first chance-- you know, sometimes they don't, because they assume that I'm too little-- but if they give me a chance, or don't KNOW how young I am, they seem to like me better and better as they get to know me. With kids 10-11 years old, they like me really well at first. But they like me less and less the more they get to know me." (she was just thoughtful as she said that, so I asked her why she thought that was so)

"I think that when I start to get to know them, I mention books and ideas and jokes and stuff that they've never even heard of. It makes me seem weirder and weirder. But the older kids, some of them 'get' me, and even the ones that don't at least know kind of what I'm talking about a lot of the time. So not as weird."

I'm thinking that if the doctor hadn't been so determined to tell her how miserable a 15 yo college student will be, he might have learned something FROM HER. Bleh. Maybe the psych consult was to fix whatever he accomplished with his little pep talk, or something.

I'm thinking he's probably not a fan of radical acceleration. Good thing his opinion isn't the one that mattered.

Oh, HowlerKarma, what a horrible experience. It sounds as though you and your DD handled it as well as possible, and I'm glad you got the referral, but.... arrrggghhhh.

I would have had a hard time with that. Very presumptuous of him to pass judgement on your daughter's academic placement when he's only just hearing about it.

I'm surprised he would spent so much time going off on what seems kind of tangential when your daughter has lost almost 10% of her body weight in 3 months.

So to what degree do you address your daughter's depression and possible ED independently of her giftedness, if at all? Seems like you are going to have to deal with doctors and mental health professionals on this, yet the issues are not so separate from her intellectual abilities as a strictly physical illness would be.

I watched a relative go through this and while I know my judging makes me seem very ugly, years later I still feel like the severity of her problems could have been mitigated if she'd been provided with more external structure, been kept on a consistent schedule, kept off caffeine and sugar, gotten some exercise, and been given more instrution on and opportunity to engage in basic life skills tasks. I think when school is rough going it's good to have an alternatives that can also provide a sense of acomplishment. not necessarily acomplishments that earn accolades, but an internal sense of scomplishment that comes from maintaining yourself and your immediate envirnoment - making your bed, having a garden, cooking a meal, caring for an animal etc.

Not harsh or ugly at all-- honest.

I agree that 'school' cannot be allowed to escalate the problem, and that we need to pull back to a position of, well-- almost guaranteed success, if you will-- so that she can feel empowered to control herself and her environment the way she wants to. (After all, ED's are fundamentally about control.) Some things that we've done (as a family) to help us on that front:

a) DD making meals both for herself and for family

b) I 'tossed' her room (gracious, that child is half packrat, I swear, tucking little caches of mixed junk under and into anywhere it'll fit)-- while this sounds cruel, she actually NEEDS the experience of sorting through all of the miscellany and putting things where they belong. DECIDING where they belong, even. She needs the personal sense of accomplishment, and she's been working on that the past couple of days as time permits.

c) she takes care of her dog and her rabbit, so she has "chores" where another creature is dependent upon her.

All of that is an opportunity for authentic praise for real effort/contribution, and we're definitely giving it.

DD may or may not have an ED. We don't know, but we also are not playing around with that particular booklet of matches, either. Hopefully the psych consult can tell us more there. In any case, the perfectionism needs to be dealt with pronto. I think that this may have been a semi-deliberate cry for help on her part, actually, since she's now clearly begun eating again in the past few days, and I didn't get the sense that it was to prevent us from seeking outside help. More out of response to our obvious level of concern.

I, too, am not sure that there is a means of dealing with this without considering her giftedness, since that is part and parcel of it. Part and parcel of who she is, actually. We shall see what we see with the therapist she's been referred to.

Luckily the school is cooperating and is actually fairly helpful. Moreso than Doctor Life-sucks-and-then-you-die, at any rate.

The insomnia and sleep disturbances are probably a genetic thing. (Let's just say it's about 3A.M. here...)

But the lying and furtive 'sneaking' sure aren't... and honestly, why on earth am I finding my child ROAMING my house two hours after her bedtime, fully awake and lying to me about the reasons for her meandering? Sheesh. Kids.

((Humor Alert))
Can you give me that Doc Optimal's phone number, because once in a while I need someone who will play the role of the bad guy so that DS will see how good he has it with DH and I. Oh wait - never mind - Boarding school is doing that job for me now, what a relief!

More seriously - I don't think there is a snowball's chance in 'you know were' that you dd is actually going to 'listen and obey' Doc Optimal. I love what she got out of it, and think it show serious maturity. Oh, and - if her medical condition allows, maybe it's time to consider getting a new MD? I think she's old enough to work with an Internist, who are generally considered the brightest of the primary care bunch, and if nothing else, usually very quiet by nature. We were so blessed to have a pediatrician who was more than OG himself and provided a firm, warm presence to those early years. Of course he was my Internist's Favorite Pediatrician.

OT - sometimes I thought that what my son really needed from me, was a fake birth certificate!

I understand that your daughter likes kids a little bit older, but it is hard to mix in this age -- as girls get very interested in boys. Although some stuff will cross, there is big changes socially. Having been younger in high school, I found my closest friends basically skipped grades too. Being younger in the social environment together really helped.

Ren

Outside of food on the table and a roof over their heads I think this is the most important thing parents can give their children. I think it's an expression of love. In some ways it's easier for parents of gifted children (becasue they are good at stuff) and in some ways it's harder (because they are good at stuff without effort).

I think something I will take away from this thread (for my own family) is a renewed consciousness that a smaller effort outside of the usual arenas of academics, sports, music, etc. is still an effort. All acomplishments are good and can contribute to a deserved sense of self worth.

LOL, Grinity-- I think so much of that is true.

As I noted to DH last night;

If he talks this way to ALL of his patients, perhaps this explains why he offers them all antidepressants, huh?

It was sort of astonishing to watch someone say, in just ten minutes, such a variety or exactly WRONG things to a person in crisis.

<shakes head>

He didn't even address the possibilities of bullying or of abuse either one. I thought that would have topped the list of things to ask about here.

<sigh>

Unfortunately, JaneSmith, I think that one of the underlying problems here is that DD has always gotten WAY more attention than we believe is healthy or earned-- for things that are more or less effortless for her. So she has bought into perfectionism from that angle. She's just too naturally good at way too many things-- which means that her entire perspective is skewed with respect to effort and actual aptitude. She writes like a moderately gifted 8th grader, so she feels she is "mediocre" or even "lousy" at writing. Uhhh... she's eleven. So really, okay, her writing skills are not on part with, say, her natural aptitude for science, where she is easily capable of introductory college level material at this point. But in the absense of her GLOBAL academic gifts, that writing ability alone would place her as a GT student. Further still, high ability in and of itself is not "praiseworthy" and we have a terrible time getting adults to STOP DOING IT. It puts us between a rock and a hard place, though, because if we lie/evade questions about her academics, that sends her the message that she should be ashamed. The attention embarrasses her and makes her feel like a sideshow freak, for one thing (she knows that most of the time, random adults are not fascinated/impressed by kids her age), and for another, it's no different than praising a child for having lovely skin or nice hair, or a particular shoe size... it makes them focus on the wrong things for their own healthy self-worth and personal identity.

She quits if something ISN'T easy, because well, she assumes "I am just not good at _____." It's maddening. But she also doesn't tolerate repetition or arbitrary demands to "demonstrate" long-since mastered skills, either, which makes for a fairly narrow band-pass filter of appropriate challenge.

________________________

Ren, I think that is something that my DH is having trouble understanding here, too. He has only male sibs, and so he doesn't really understand "girl culure" at this age. It's complicated, no question. DD needs to find "the geek kids."

We're hoping that we can do that with either Robotics or with D&D. Unfortunately, we may NEED to pull back on one of her other extracurriculars to make that happen. DH has been reluctant for her to give up piano, but I see that as being on the table, too. Piano is a solitary activity. Maybe that isn't the best way of spending that time at this point, KWIM? Much as I know that she will eventually come to regret having "quit" piano (most people do), it may be more important to make room for something else that has a positive social component.

LMAOROFL-Fake ID's to sneak into middle school under age. That's priceless.

I think this reaction is fairly common among gifted kids. It's natural to some degree, too. If everything has always been easy, a young person has no concept of the fact that sometimes it's necessary to think hard about something before you get it --- no matter how smart you are. And of course, if she's never had to think hard, doing so will be quite a challenge at first. Focusing on something hard is not easy. It's a learned skill.

This idea probably applies to anyone who could be described as gifted (e.g. in sports or music).

I've talked about this idea at length with my eldest (almost 11). I tell him that people who aren't gifted in school learn to "think hard" from an early age. I also give him parallels in other areas (e.g. "Remember you thought you'd never be able to do a mohawk on ice skates? You kept trying, and now you can do it, right? Well, <insert subject name> is the same. Just keep trying.").

Piano may be a solitary activity for her right now, but please thing three times before encouraging her to give up active music, because at university that is one of the easiest ways to socialise that there is. Piano might not be quite as great for this as playing a stringed instrument was for me, but I certainly did a fair bit of playing chamber music that involved pianists so the pianists were certainly socialising a bit!

It really sounds as though her extracurricular activities are more educational than her curricular ones at the moment. Could you take advantage of that and drop some curricular stuff instead of the extracurriculars? I bet you could get any skill you consider essential to keep going in in connection with robotics, so it needn't be all or nothing. (Btw, perhaps your DD might be interested in some of the research work reported here - e.g. I heard a lovely talk by Barbara Webb recently about using robotic models of cricket behaviour to investigate biology.)

I agree. Did the doctor do anything about the weight loss?

This may not work for everyone, but one thing we did with our pediatrician early on was to make it very clear were were not seeking social or educational advice. We are capable of seeking out advice from other experts and sources of information. Most pediatricians don't have the kind of training to offer meaningful information about those topics and the topics are also pretty value laden and knowing we have some out of the mainstream opinions on those issues I don't expect a pediatrician will necessarily share our values.

So, my approach would be to simply cutoff the pediatrician and say that you would like to focus on medical issues. It sounds like there is plenty to be concerned about in that area and there isn't a need to waste time talking about her schoolwork.

Good suggestion. Different extracurriculars will offer her different opportunities for self exploration and social development.

Well, the holy grail of extracurricular activities would be a group of geeky teens playing RPG based on Doctor Who. I have heard tell that such a thing exists. We are investigating!

(Or Monty Python, or The Hitchhiker's Guide)

While the RPG components of D&D appeal, the basic fantasy-element of the game play is "Meh." She's more of a sci-fi and Metaphysics girl at this point. D&D might have appealed MORE about two years ago. The bonus, of course, is that it is great for executive skills and it tends to draw geek-type kids to start with.


She'd probably like being DM, but is not experienced enough for that. Yet.


Hmmm. Dropping back to fewer courses... She has a couple of electives right now, but one of them is one she's actually liking. (Consumer math-- applied personal finance type stuff, which she likes.) Dropping the other one, though-- now THAT is a possibility.

I wonder if we could still do that this late in the term?

Thanks for the ideas.

DD is happier and eating more normally now than just three days ago.

I think that this episode suggests that EARLY intervention (that is, when you first suspect a problem like this (possible ED) don't horse around and fail to seek professional help PRONTO.

DD seems ironically quite relieved that we understood that this was a call for help.

Oh dear, HowlerKarma, what a ridiculous situation for your daughter and you to be in. That Dr obviously has some issues! Maybe a hint of his own existential depression? Not to mention he needs a new job.

Anyway, I'm glad stuff is getting better and I really hope the trend continues.

I am with CollinsMum. Stay with the piano, it is good for discipline and work habits -- if she has to practice.

But I would go with athletic extracurriculars, to help with a good balance in her body image and meet kids her age with which she would have something in common with. Sports can be a great connector. Gymnastics, tennis, track & field. Something she can be around a bunch of kids.

I also agree that food issues should always be taken seriously. And it doesn't have to be anorexia. It could go to bulmia, if she is sneaking candy. Girls fall into food issues way too easily. Especially as those hormons kick in and they get "rounder".

Ren

I don't really have anything productive to say but that doctor sounds crazy! Can you switch to a different pediatrician?

At her age I think it should be her choice how she wants to handle it. If she wants you to change the subject or not to share information about her academics I'd agree to that. Certainly if you are together and someone asks questions about her, I would bow out of the conversation. I find it very odd when adults direct questions about a child her age to an adult instead of directly to the child who is standing there.

I would not present it as a matter of shame, but rather as a matter of choice. Preferring to be private about aspects of your life or preferring to be modest are perfectly acceptable choices to make. Preferring to talk about it and then hear "wow" is also a perfectly acceptable choice. Maybe it would be helpful to practice ways to role play situations to sidestep a question or change the subject. That helped our radically accelerated child get more comfortable with figuring out how he wanted to handle that information. It also helped him to hear that it is entirely his choice what he shares with others.

This is very much how we run our "homeschool". Our extras tend to get more time/focus and if we can tread water and go wide academically we do. I seriously am trying to avoid sending my kids to college too early. They aren't the very focused, mature GT type. They're more like the too smart for their own good type. Music is such a great activity for my kids because they really get forced to try on a daily basis, so that would low on the list to go if we had to make cuts, but clearly YMMV. If it wasn't serving as a consistent challenge to them, I doubt we'd prioritize it like we do.

Good luck making your choices! I'm glad it looks like she's turned a corner and you're making some good decisions.

I am going to echo ADHD inattentive type. It has taken years for me to see this trend in my famiy and it is very easy to dismiss. Look at the paradoxes in the information:

- She likes to be honor roll, but doesn't focus or work at it: In my family, I see this all the time. We have a history of Aspeger's on one side and ADHD on the other. It is really easy to blame this on the child's study skils. Heck, I blamed it on my study skills. My mother blames it on her inability to study. But, if you have ADHD you cannot focus. I was a total perfectionist, blamed myself for not being able to study, fell into huge depressions about it...and even with all that emotional turmoil, I could not study.

- The anger and frustration she has: If she can not study and cannot make herself work at it, then all the pushing in the world won't make it any better. I know the frustration from the parenting end. I have some of it for my older son who is both Aspeger's and ADD. It looks like laziness, but if it is AHD inattentive, then she cannot. And more importantly, she will avoid work that makes her think 'too much' because it is overwhelming. Whether or not she is perfectly capable of doing it, it will feel overwhelming and it takes a huge effort to get past that.

More points are that ADHD inattentive types work much better with hard deadlines that mean something. Usually they wait until the last minute, but they generally meet the deadline. You will see it more around school time, because that is when the child is asked to focus more on non-preferred tasks for longer periods of time, and to motivate herself to do things that they will find "boring" (i.e. that do not provide enough stimulus for them to be able to focus on.)

Anyways, I am not saying she has this, but I am saying that ther is a possibility she does.

Thanks again to everyone for the very thoughtful responses.


We have a series of appointments for DD with a local PsyD, but I have some reservations/concerns about THAT, now, as well.

DH and I really don't think (relative to her basic maturity, personality, etc.) that this is ADD. Remember, we both have considerable experience as classroom teachers. We've seen a LOT more ADD/ADHD up close and personal than most parents.

Those behaviors really seem to be completely voluntary on DD's part, and distinctly different from the ADD we've seen in others. She is also highly oppositional, and definitely not placed "appropriately" in an educational sense-- this is just a 'least-worst' solution. Far from an 'ideal' one. She's a sprinter, and school by design asks all students to be distance runners.

IMO, there's simply no way to separate the behaviors from adolescent acting out and personality, nevermind inadequate nutrition and sleep, which are also present here. All of that assuming that academic placement were completely appropriate-- which it isn't.

Here's my concern about the PsyD we've been referred to. Her specialty is in "Diagnosis and Treatment recommendations for ADD/ADHD."

While I have no problem with that-- it is deeply concerning to me that this is also apparently someone with little experience in HG+ children, and recall that we do NOT have scores for our DD. (There are a number of reasons for that, actually.)

Based on a variety of information, we believe that her SB scores would likely be in the 160's, but much of that is based on comparative data and other family members' scores on that particular tool. Knowing that she's PG is a no brainer, really-- she tests at +99th percentile on out-of-level (+3 y) acheivement tests every year. We live in an area with a decided paucity of good mental health resources, nevermind resources for gifted children.

The first PsyD wants us to go to a second PsyD for "testing" of some kind. Apparently this is to take about four hours. I've asked for more detail than that-- because I am NOT going to be very happy about a battery designed to identify LD or psychiatric disorders if there is NO consideration of her LOG in the mix.

I'm also not necessarily going to give permission for testing unless there is a clear benefit to my child in knowing the answers. In other words, if they want to test her just because she seems novel, forget about it.

Maybe I'm worried for nothing. But I'd sure like to know how many or what percentage of this psychologist's patients walk out with a diagnosis of some pathology-- and whether or not she's got a lot of experience with PG kids.



Oh, and the appointments? The first PsyD we were referred to has us booked for her very first openings. In late JUNE. Ugh.


I realize that this is probably a fairly controversial (perhaps even :loaded:) question, but I know from experience with human beings that when you are holding a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail. My DH and I both share the concern I outlined above-- that the person we've been referred to may see MOST kids as "probably ADD" and potentially ignore the fact that this kid's problems are almost certainly related to HG+ issues.

Are we right to be concerned about a misdiagnosis here? What would others do?

My suggestion is to be concerned about a misdiagnosis regardless of how probable it is. Especially if they suggest medication. Medication for ADD or ADHD given to a child without this condition may not only be ineffective, but have extreme negative effects. If you decide to try any suggested course of action, be aware of signs the suggested action is ineffective or resulting in negative effects.

So basically educate yourself as much as possible before trying any new course of action and be prepared to watch as closely as possible for any changes. Record any observation of change, even the minor ones. Discuss these observations as quickly as possible. Consider multiple sources of expertise.

Yeah, no worries there.

I have a PhD in chemistry, earned via neurochemistry with particular expertise in the impact of drugs of abuse in the biogenic amine neurotransmitter system, as well as nearly a decade in molecular pharmacology including cardiac pharmacology. I'm probably FAR more aware of the side effects than most clinicians are, truth be told. Which is one reason I'm so concerned about mis-identification. I know that we won't medicate DD as a diagnostic measure (let's try it and see if it helps) but I don't especially feel like having to go there in the first place.

Clinicians are often somewhat defensive with my DH and I in the first place because of our (apparently intimidating) background. Usually the first thing out of a doctor's mouth is a mumbled, "Oh... I hated chemistry." This occasionally leads to problems. (It isn't just us, btw-- have a friend with a trisomy child that has the same problems with physicians because of her PhD in pharmacology.) I guess we come across as not especially.. um... awed... or maybe they just anticipate that we won't.

I treasure physicians that aren't intimidated by me and will recognize that I ask questions because I truly just want to know what they THINK about things. (Luckily, our DD's main specialist is just such a clinician.)

Very interesting to learn about your area of expertise. I have a particular interest in cognitive science, but it is not my field.

I don't have any formal educational expertise in any of the areas related to this particular issue. My experience however, involves living in a unique small town of 2000, where I personally know 1500 people. The town has often led the entire country in a number of per capita statistics (in some years). For instance, highest number of scientists, highest number of gifted students. I will describe this town as one of extremes. Some of statistical extremes are good and some are not good. I do not wish to go into details here. The statistics were not extremely out of line with the average, but enough to be noticable.

Living in a small town, a person gets to see people from birth to advanced age. It also offers up the opportunity to know a lot about peoples personal, professional, educational and social lives. When I compare a lot of what I have seen to what the sciences involved in human behavior, I see a lot of missing information. I suspect a lot of psychologists only see their patients for the short period of time they are under a specific classification.

I have seen a few cases where the effects of the wrong medication were significant enough to feel it is a good idea to monitor someone 24/7 for a period of at least a couple weeks or possibly more. Nothing might have happened, but the person effected appeared completely out of control of their actions and totally confused.

At the age of 11, the changes may only be temporary life cycle changes (a more extreme terrible 2s cycle). However, there is a lot of neural developmental changes happening at this age as well. These developmental changes can be permanent. The more permanent changes tend to be more gradual in nature. You will gradually see a change in behavior in a certain direction. The temporary changes tend to appear suddenly and disappear as suddenly. Some people don't notice the gradual changes until they are extreme, so these changes may be seen as sudden.

This is what my experience tells me.

Yes, I think you should be concerned about this. I would suggest that you try to meet in person with the psych. before he/she meets with your daughter and does any kind of testing or evaluation. Find out as much as you can about their background and credentials, and what tests they plan to do.

I regret having my DS11 tested a year ago by a psychologist without meeting him first. And I'm pretty sure I got a mis-diagnosis (but that's another story). I think that finding the right person to help a child as unusual as yours will require some research (and maybe some travel too).

HowlerKarma,
Don't go to a psych who isn't experienced with gifted. Why bother? What would they know about frustration and acting up or needing to DO something because the pace of the learning material is so slow...

It is way better to spend the money at a minimum on someone who is experienced with gifted children and would be really really nice that they know gifted Girls! Because girls aren't boys. Heh.

I've heard good things about "The Gifted Development Center" http://www.gifteddevelopment.com in Colorado I think. But there has got to be other good psyc ed testers on the West Coast.

But yes, meet with psyc first and ask lots of questions.
Best wishes!

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...5059822090.000461ba927f03f403bed&z=4


let's see if this link to the google map of testers is working...

Do you have a specialist who works with gifted kids in your area? While I certainly think that's preferable, I don't think it is the only option if that's not accessible. As important is to get the kid in with someone who can see them soon and on a regular basis and that is probably going to be someone local.

It seems to me in this thread that you've describe a wide range of possible concerns (oppositional behavior, depression, attention, anxiety, challenges posed by a medical disability, need for greater independence, perfectionism, etc.) While giftedness may well be part of some of these issues, as many maybe related to her personality and medical challenges.

There are MANY good therapists in the world who are not gifted specialists. If you don't have the gifted specialist option locally I might think of instead looking for a good general therapist who gets along with teenagers and is a respectful, open minded individual. That is most likely not going to be someone who bills themselves as an ADD specialist. Especially given the particular considerations association with your daughter's medical disability, it is likely going to be the case that any therapist you choose (even if they are a gifted specialist) is still going to need to be open to adapting to learn more about her unique situation.

If you don't have a gifted specialist in the area, one option might be to travel and get an assessment and then pursue ongoing therapy locally. You'd then have the gifted specialist available to you as a resource as you attempt to tackle these concerns. It may be unpopular to say, but personally I am not a fan of assuming your child has SB scores in the 160s because she scores 99% tile on acheivement tests. Those are really different things. I have seen bright and aware parents totally get the level of giftedness wrong. As a general rule I don't think it is particularly important to get IQ scores at this age, but given the situation with her schooling it may be helpful to get this information.

At any rate, I think the biggest help is going to come from getting a really good therapist who can help her through the challenges and transitions that come with adolescence.

Wow-- thank you AGAIN, everyone.

I don't know that a "gifted specialist" is in the cards, honestly, given location and other considerations in the situation.

But it's good to hear that our radar jangling over the therapist's credentials/specialty is not entirely unwarranted, at least.


We actually suspect that this is probably just our daughter's personality colliding with angst and hormones. She has an incredible tendency to "win" anything she sees as any kind of power struggle-- and anyone she knows very well who attempts to guide her is often caught in her crosshairs there.

In other words, a lot of this is (in our estimation) because she's who she is, and she's decided that "adults" who try to "tell her what to do" (ie-- you have to brush your teeth... you have to complete your schoolwork each day) are trying to "control" her. Ay yi yi...

Anyway.

Also want to note here that I agree with PTP about 'assuming' ability scores on the basis of acheivement testing, even out of level. That's definitely not the sole (or even 'major?') basis for our estimates. Our estimate is a range based on how our DD seems to fit developmentally and cognitively into the range of known scores of close family members, whose scores on the same SB tool range from 137 to 170-something. Her abilities are toward the top end of that range. DH thinks 150+, and given all of my experience with the person who was the 170-something individual (it was a parent), I think she's not quite at that level, but she's clearly more capable than my DH or I either one. So I think 160's-- but that *could* mean 155-170, in all liklihood. Her development puts her there by pretty much any estimation tool (Ruf's, etc.). All that to say that while our STATE may be happy using acheivement test scores to identify gifted students, we don't necessarily put much stock in that for its own sake.

I was definitely surprised when the intake PA for Psych II didn't KNOW what kinds of assessments/evaluations were planned for this four hours-- but that cognitive assessments were unlikely to be part of it. That just kind of boggled my mind. They know that she's 11 and they know she's an 8th grader. So that sort of left me scratching my head.

I'm still waiting to hear back from them about what, precisely, they are planning with this four hours of assessment. Seems a little weird that they didn't know right off hand what might be on the table, so to speak.

Now I'm wondering about the value of a practice SAT/ACT though... just for the number, I mean.

We probably can't get official registration done because of disability accommodations that would need hammering out ahead of time.

We've known all along that DD will need someone who is highly flexible and willing to learn if she's to establish a positive working relationship with a therapist.

It's a major reason why we've always tried more of a DIY approach to these things. I just think that we need outside help with this.

HowlerKarma,

If you have documentation that supports the need for the accommodations you are requesting, it can't hurt to go ahead and start the process of getting them approved. Once you have SAT accommodations in place, you don't have to re-apply - they stay in place. So it isn't a bad idea to get the accommodations approved now anyway, even if it turns out that you can't get approved in time for the test that you want to take this year.

Good point.

I've really been dreading it, and I guess that has probably translated into me looking for reasons to avoid it and rationalizing why "later" is a better time to do it. <sigh> There isn't going to be a better time.

Oh yuck.

Well, psych2's office called back. They plan to do "cognitive, executive, emotional, eating-disorder, etc. etc." assessments with that four hours.

When I asked for more specifics, I was informed that she "doesn't like to" be specific about the assessment tools prior to the appointment.

Hmm... Well, oddly enough, I don't like to be giving blanket approvals for testing for my young adolescent daughter, either.



So apparently I'll need to schedule an appointment with the psych if I want more specific information ahead of time.

I said that was just fine with me. I just don't want to say "Yeah, sure-- whatever" unless the doctor can explain WHY a particular assessment is being performed and what she hopes to learn from it.

They wouldn't expect me to sign on for a chest X-ray and an MRI without giving me a reason why, would they?

<sigh>

DH and I are not happy with how this has all transpired thus far. Our family doc probably has a lot to do with that, but if they are looking for a particular problem, maybe they ought to let us in on the secret, too, YK?

Maybe this is unfair of me, but I'm not sure that I want someone that doesn't work with HG kids doing any cognitive testing of my DD-- especially if she doesn't establish any kind of rapport with her first.

My DD is pretty sensitive to interpersonal relationships, and if she feels weird about the situation or the doc, she will definitely shut down. She has NEVER been alone with a medical practitioner. She has always had one of us in the room with her.


To think that she can do cognitive assessment AND all of the rest of that in about four hours also seems to me to be pretty naive, but maybe I'm wrong. Hmm.

The other reason I'm wary is that we don't have previous numbers to compare with, and we've even noticed the drop-off in cognitive ability lately as a direct result of sleep deprivation and inadequate nutrition. It's not that she's not still functional at an 11yo level. She is. It's just that she's not functional at a PG, high-schooler level the way she ordinarily is.

So I worry a bit that her scores will reflect current circumstances more than they reflect native/ordinary ability, and if that is the case, I'd rather not have them. I think that the psych MIGHT be better off seeing a portfolio of DD's earlier work in that case.

I don't really have any aversion to knowing the numbers-- just the manner in which they are being obtained seems a little off-kilter to me, and I worry that it could do more harm than good, maybe even damaging DD's position with her school. (ie-- if her scores drop down into the 130 range, which is quite possible at the moment, it might 'appear' as though her placement is 'too high' when the reality is actually the other way around, given what we've seen this year.) Honestly, I'd love to have the real numbers in front of us. I just have a little skepticism about the level of experience that the person administering the assessment has; in addition to that, I have some concerns about the inherent validity of any value determined while my DD is clearly in some kind of crisis.

Ugh.

Besides, we think that we may have gotten to the root of at least SOME of the problems here-- it seems that our devious princess has been staying up all night in order to sneak onto the computer in the night so that she can play Pokemon and hang out in chat rooms. Oh, and YouTube... working on her YouTube account and PMs from gawd-knows-who... We really don't even KNOW exactly what all she's been up to since she's so effectively been lying to us about it, and she is so savvy that she has been able to repair the wireless LAN when we've disabled it, clear her cache and clean it of incriminating evidence, etc.

:EEK:

Yes, my 11 yo daughter.

<hair on fire>

Okay, well, this certainly explains the sleep deprivation. That, in turn, probably explains at least some of the appetite suppression, too (this is pretty common in sleep deprivation in my family), and DEFINITELY the executive function shortfall recently...


Oh, and she also informed me late last week that she's just plain "Tired of" her dad and I thinking that we are "better than her" just because we are adults. Yeah, she apparently doesn't think that adults should have any right to tell her what to do. Regarding ANYTHING. (Yes, I know. I explained to her that at eleven, she's not exactly self-sufficient yet. I even enforced this lesson by cheerily leaving her to walk the fifteen minutes home from where we were at the time, much to her shock.)





Just thinking out loud here. DD is emotionally pretty extreme, so as JamieH notes, this could just be HG intensity meets PG need for autonomy meets adolescent girl hormones meets probable S.A.D. meets inappropriate educational placement/setting and completely "normal" within that context. I don't have a lot of faith that the average psychologist is going to see it in that light, however. But maybe I'm being too cynical.

Hmm-- finally, in better news, our local college math department has a COUPLE of young women who look to be potentially wonderful tutors for DD.

One of them even shares DD's passion for social justice, which could be a really great connecting point in addition to the math.

From what I could tell of the young woman's Facebook page, she also looks somewhat like Amita from Numb3rs, too, which can only help.

Well, nevermind that. She isn't probably suitable since her tutoring expertise ends at about the level DD is currently at, and she's actually a major in another department. <sigh> Darn.


We'll keep trying. There are several female grad students in the department.

Here's my opinions:


She is going to have to get a much better upfront co-operative bedside manner to get anywhere with your daughter and her very opinionated mother. � �Hmm, do you have time to get on the same page ? �What kind of question is that?!

Find out how to call Aimee Yermish. �She posts on this board sometimes to answer people's questions. �I don't really know what she does besides administer tests and specialize in giftedness, but by reading what she writes she's way more thorough than "let's do the checklist and slap on a few generic lables". �She looks for the nuance and interprets how to help specific, individual children. �Google her and see if you can hire her as a consultant/advocate whatever it's called so she can know you're situation and help educate you how to guide your local psychiatrist into actually being of useful service to you. �I would if I didn't like what I was getting locally. �I wouldn't know who else to call. �Are you DYS? �

Sheesh. �Kids. �I guess there's Internet safety and things I haven't thought about yet. �But other than that if you don't want to micro-manage her day you might consider giving her a taste of her own medicine by making a little kid reward chart with chores, homework, eating, everything you would have to make a little kid do that you would have to do on your own if you lived by yourself. �Cook, eat, dishes, bathe, mop. �Use her star chart plus monopoly money to give her $6/week. �Charge her $1 for Internet, one dollar for electricity, and $1 for keeping snacks in the house. �Take the power cord to the computer (except during homework) or the lightbulbs from her room if she doesn't pay. �If she does pay then she's eating, doing homework, and hygiene, then let her be a night owl since she doesn't have a schedule.

Yes, I have been giving this some thought �even though my kids are pre-k because I desperately want to stay one step ahead of them. �

Opinionated??!!

Me?

I don't know what you mean... heehee.

Found this in my trolling:

SENG's Selecting a Mental Health Professional for your Gifted Child

Pretty much exactly what we have been thinking-- and also what all of you have been saying as well. I guess we're all on the same page. It just seems like it might not be the same one that we're on with our local mental health professionals. <sigh>

HowlerKarma, I think your daughter's long-lost twin resides at my house. It's very challenging - teasing out what's "normal" developmentally for them as an outlier, and what's potentially harmful.

I don't know where you are on the west coast, but are you familiar with the Eides? They have a particular interest in giftedness and quirks.

http://www.neurolearning.com/eides.htm

Wow! For the sake of space I won�t quote the whole entry, but you have completely described my DD at that age. She said the same thing. Are you also finding junk-food wrappers stashed in her room? And cereal bowls in drawers?

Now I am really wondering about the numbers we got from our testing, I was told by 3 schools prior to age 11 that my DD tested beyond the 99th percentile across the board so I was totally surprised at her recent test results. But she definitely began a downward spiral at age 11 and it has only just started to get better.

In my DDs case, the school fit was also pretty terrible by that age though (since we had just moved) and she fell into depression. Supposedly the junk food and all night computer use were a sort of self-medication and escape for her.

My DD has now been diagnosed with ADD-inattentive, AS and situational depression (resulting from the frustrations caused by the ADD). So if the dx is right, the ADD did not begin to be a real issue or hinder her performance at school until she hit 7th grade.


Awesome idea LaTexican! I wish I had thought of that!!! My niece just hit 11 and is beginning to follow this path; I think I will suggest that plan to my brother!

I would very strongly encourage you to contact Patricia Gatto-Walden. It would be expensive to travel to see her (to Denver or Florida) but she does phone consults and she gets gifted girls, and has worked extensively with PG teens. If anyone would be able to help and understand how the giftedness plays into what ever is going on it would be her.

For example, she has participated in this camp http://www.educationaladvancement.org/pages/programspages/yunasa.html
for HG/PG kids for many years. I really think it could be a great investment to get her POV on how you can help your dd.

Have you met with multiple people or just to the office staff of this one ADD doctor? I would not discount the ability of local providers to help until you've done a lot more research.

Trying to say this gently...I would encourage caution about not dismissing too many options too quickly. It can be easy when you are feeling worried and protective to believe that nobody will understand or help. That can become self fulfilling prophecy. If you don't like the ADD doctor of course move on, but I would not be dismissive of the possibility that anyone local could help you. An 11 year old sneaking the computer and staying up late... that is hardly a rare problem that only a few could understand.

Also, I don't know if it is reasonable to dismiss anyone who wants to do testing. If you believe that giftedness likely plays some role and seek out people who believe the same many will want to do that sort of assessment. You mentioned concern if the school saw the assessment, but I'm not sure why that's a worry. This is a private assessment right? You aren't obligated to share that information with anyone you don't want to.

I would be wary if the child has learning disabilities. If not, and it is the most accessible option I wouldn't rule it out. Our PG child got good testing from someone who primarily tests disabled children. The testing is standard so it posed no problem. The bigger problem may come in trusting the interpretation of the results or trusting educational recommendations from someone not familiar with a highly gifted population.

As far as the amount of testing in the afternoon, some of what they are talking about are likely inventories that can be done very quickly. If you proceed I would suggest they do the cognitive testing first or on anther day. It may not take more than an hour to do.

Thank you, PTP, for that honest reality-check.

I'm really trying to separate baby from bathwater in my own head, for sure. I'm significantly concerned about my daughter being "labeled" with some disorder or LD she most emphatically does NOT have. This really seems to be existential/isolation/alienation stuff. I can see her experiencing/thinking some of the same things that I did at thirteen and fourteen, which tallies perfectly with her LOG and mine.

I'd love to have "the numbers" to prove what we have known for years-- and better still to have it covered even partially by our insurance. So on the one hand, I'm VERY keen to do this; but then the angel of my better nature as a mom is on the other shoulder, and telling me that I can't jump at the chance without thinking it through... Maybe not if it doesn't mean anything. I just don't see how it WOULDN'T be skewed significantly due to sheer sleep deprivation, honestly. We're not experts by any stretch of the imagination, and even we can see the dropoff in executive and cognitive functioning. So if her cognitive function currently shows that she is "MG" and has executive function deficits, I'm doubtful that either thing is even meaningful-- but the label itself could be traumatizing to her. Being HG is part of her identity at this point, and being told "no, you're MG-- why can't you just relax and enjoy being with those other MG kids" isn't likely to help her much with her feelings of isolation/alienation. KWIM?

I'm not at ALL happy that the psychologist in question doesn't seem to want to discuss testing with DH and I ahead of time. It seems very strange, and it makes my parent radar twang a bit.



We have this pair of local (female) psychologists, and then there are a number of counselors that are MSW people-- we haven't dug much further than that yet since we are significantly restricted by gatekeeping in terms of our insurance. There aren't a lot of local options-- but we are still investigating things.

Beyond that, we're looking at travel-- which is very difficult because of disability issues that must be worked around.

We are out of range for anything south of the Bay area, and NEARLY out of range for the Seattle area. Denver or the east coast is simply not a possibility. The Portland area is actually the most realistic zone for us to look toward.

Is there not a way to put an end to that? Now that you know what is going on - put the laptop, keyboards, mice under lock and key at night if you have to. Sleep deprivation should be pretty quick to resolve.

In my opinion it would be perfectly fine to speak to the doctor and explain that you've seen her academically achieving years beyond average for her grade so you think cognitive testing is important. However, right now she's in crisis and you are concerned the scores will not accurately reflect her abilities. As your insurance is likely to pay for the cognitive testing only once you'd prefer to get the situation more stabilized first.


???? Who would tell her that???

You are the one who owns this test information. If you don't think it is accurate you don't have to give her the results. And, no matter the results nobody has to say that "relax" line.


Another possible interpretation of this situation. Most people don't want to know these details so they didn't think to offer them. Most people hire someone they think is good at their job and then trust that they have the ability to determine what tests to run based on a reading of the history and the referral. Certainly you should have a conversation with the doctor if you want to, but I'd start from assuming they aren't trying to be evasive or cheat you. You'll probably get further in getting to the bottom of the situation.

Ultimately it sounds like you are going to need a local (or close to local) resource for therapy. It may be good to pursue an evaluation out of the area if you can afford it, but I hope you will get lucky and find a workable local resource.

Yes, I should have explained better:

we HAVE taken steps to stabilize the situation, absolutely. New passwords on all of the other (non-DD) computers, disabling the LAN at night, and physically REMOVING her laptop into our bedroom each night. We have also taken the stance that if she wipes the history or cache files, she WILL lose computer privileges, even if that has a deleterious impact on her grades of social life; and that we will be checking her account activity and internet use regularly.

So we are hopeful that this will rapidly turn things around. That and the whopping VitD deficiency that the bloodwork revealed, that is.

I think maybe this was just surprise that I asked/mentioned things on the part of the intake PA, and, as you noted, that this is not the "usual" thing. After a little bit of back and forth with the Psych2 (the doctor, that is), the PA seemed much less stand-offish over the "preliminary" appointment with DH and me. We now have an appointment about a week ahead of the scheduled appointment with DD.

I made it clear that we view this appointment as a way for the three of us to candidly share what we are hoping to learn and how she plans to investigate different possibilities. The PA responded with "of course, of course-- absolutely." (Which was, if not a completely different set of lyrics, at least a major key change from previous conversations with her. Oh well.)

We are definitely going into it with open minds. And since it is still about a month away, we have some definite hope that the situation should have radically changed for the better by then. It will have, if past history is anything to go by, anyway. DD always turns around about this time each spring.

As for the 'relax' line, well, you're right that nobody would actually SAY that to her... more that she'd put things together that way inside her head, I think.

Now, I don't know what we would tell her in that case; No Habla isn't going to work with this particular child, that is for sure. She's very savvy medically and we've never hidden test results from her, since we've always treated her like a partner in her healthcare.

More stuff to mention to the psychologist, I suspect.

Have you read Living with Intensity? If not I would very highly suggest reading it. It addresses existential angst in adolescents well.

It's on my hold list at the library!!

That other bewildered parent needs to return it so that I can have it.

We've worked our way through a few other executive function/skills books lately, and while there are some things that seem to "fit" there is just a general sense (independently, both DH and I) that it doesn't quite come into focus with her. That is, the behaviors are not especially broad spectrum, nor pervasive, and there are things that flat out don't fit.

We both had the sense that "Oh, yeah... I've seen that before... but, uhh, not in {DD} really." So we recognized the behaviors from our observations in the classroom-- but the picture just doesn't quite fit DD, if that makes sense. Not when you look at the big picture with her, anyway.

DH and I are quite different in our cognitive processing, so the fact that we BOTH felt that way is a pretty good indicator that our instincts are good, I think.

I think it explains Dabrowski's theory SO WELL. Positive disintegration--this seems like exactly what your dd could be going through. And for me, if I were in a situation like she is, framing it in that way would be very helpful.

You also may want to contact Dr. Edward Amend, who is based in Kentucky. I talked with him via phone and he was and incredable resource. He would be able to help with sources in your area. He is one of the authors of the Misdiagnosis book. He returned my call and talked to me for an hour about my situation at the time. I had the best luck in calling his office and leaving a message.

Wow-- thank you all SO MUCH. You've given my family such wonderful food for thought on this, and I cannot begin to say thank you enough.

Here's an (amusing) example of how my luck works:

"Living With Intensity" disappeared off my hold list. When I investigated this more fully yesterday (thanks for mentioning the book again, since this is what prompted me to look again), apparently that other bewildered parent needs to read Late, Lost, and Unprepared or something, because the book I was next in line for?

Is MISSING/LOST now.

AUGH!

Ordered the last copy on Amazon this morning. Sheesh.

And no, my name isn't "Murphy" but I can see why you'd ask...

Ditto. Dr. Ed seems awesome. We met him last summer at a talk - he chatted briefly with us and later with dd about whether or not dd needed a 2nd opinion. He did mention that he could review her previous raw scores and do a phone conference with us later if she hit another rocky patch. For us, it seemed like the right approach. Even if you tested locally, it seems like he would be a good person to consult about the PG/2E issues after you get all the raw data.

Out of curiosity, if you where going to travel for a consultation, do you think your dd would prefer talking to a man or a woman? Just a thought... And Living with Intensity is a good read, but it doesn't offer any solutions, which honestly is why I ordered it from Amazon - our local library doesn't have it.

Another Ditto for Dr. Amend is awesome!

Gaaaaaaa!

Another day, another setback, and an unfathomable thought-process on my parenting partner's behalf.

DH was supposed to help DD to prepare for a math exam that she has been avoiding (performance-avoidance, perfectionism at work... she is developing self-handicapping which I, being a person who has BTDT, has that teeshirt, recognize for precisely what it is).

His method was to hand her a set of review problems (guaged by similarity to exam material)-- and verbally ask her periodically if she was "working" on them or not. As long as she answered in the affirmative, he thought all was well. (Yes, that's right, not checking to see if she was understanding, writing things out, or checking her own answers.) She started on the exam last night after studying using Dad's method all afternoon, and it went reasonably well... at first...

then it all started to fall apart. In other words, the first ten questions.... good. The next three, not-so-good. At that point, I sent her to bed.

Her answer, apparently, was to stay up late and read (leisure), then get up super early (~2-4h sleep) and make a mess in the kitchen... then finish working on the exam, which she angrily started to CRY over after about ten minutes. Unfortunately for her, I found a list/drawing in her bathroom indicating that she PLANNED her sleeplessness. UN-REAL.



So yes, I was angry with her for pulling this stunt, given our very careful ramp back up toward this math class (which she is just about having kittens over at the moment, given her grade in it... another F on an exam isn't going to help, that's for sure).

DH's answer?

He called the local public middle school to ask about enrollment.

(No, not kidding.)

His thinking, apparently is that "other kids like her have to learn to manage, so can she" (re: her disability, which is definitely about 2SD from the norm for THAT condition), and discovered that, uhhhhh.... not only will they not even 'consider' enrollment as an 8th grader (due to her age-- 11), apparently it wouldn't matter anyway since she's already outstripped the math available there.

Oh, but not to worry. We could (apparently-- I have my doubts personally since she has official public school transcripts indicating that she has passed state benchmarks for 8th grade at this point) just enroll her as a 6th grader. Undifferentiated curriculum, mind you. That's right. My child, who is struggling with the fact that she's only NOW being 'challenged' academically-- oh, and only in the one class-- could... just... go... back... and do grades 6, 7, 8, and 9 over. Yes, the same child that was disappointed that the coverage of Romeo and Juliet was "pretty superficial" this year in freshman honors English.

DH's attitude is that this will "teach her a lesson" and at least make it all someone ELSE'S problem.

(Yes, I know, but he refuses to even hear me about the magnitude of homework battles this would turn into.)

I'm truly sort of dumbfounded by my spouse at this juncture.

Amazed. But not in a good way.

I told DH that if he's willing to place her at that kind of risk, then he ought to have contacted the HIGH SCHOOL about enrollment in the fall.

Because at least there, she stands to be in a more appropriate academic setting as a return on the risk to her safety (re: disability).


Honestly, though, I am just horrified.

I think that the social interactions could be positive in the high school, but I seriously doubt it in middle school. Kids take being "the smartest" way too seriously in this town... probably because so many of their parents care so much, frankly.

We know from discussions with other families that have been enrolled in local schools and (our) virtual school that the level of instruction is close to an order of magnitude higher where she is placed now.

We clearly have a kid who is struggling mightily because of performance-avoidant strategies related to perfectionism, probably brought on by inappropriately unchallenging curriculum (ie-- 100% is the ONLY 'authentic' goal to strive for, so she's done it, mostly with success) for the last six years...now morphed into a possible budding ED, risk aversion, and procrastination...

and my spouse's answer is to punish her by... making her do the last three years over again?? But... slower this time...



I truly don't even know what to say to him.

Breathing is always a good strategy when dealing with those crazy creatures called spouses

Seriously though, what caught my attention here is what he thinks middle school would do differently. She was presented the material by the virtual school, told to study for it, did not, or did so partially, did poorly and then responded in the negative way which you all are so concerned about. So if she went to a bricks and morter school, teacher would present the material, she would already know it, either do well deciding to play the game or melt down because it was such a waste of her time. But let's imagine for a moment they actually taught her something she did not know, then would give her a test on it, she would either study or not, fail or not and throw a fit or not. Just like every other kid her age !!!! and like every other family, parent s have a choice about whether they get tiger parenty on the kid about exams or let them sink on their own or something in between.

Seems to me if I were to judge and but in based on your version (which does set him up a bit ) he had an opportunity to engage her and work with her and chose not to, this is the choice he would have whether she went bricks and mortar or not. PG or not, asking a kid are you doing what you are supposed to do and then just trusting the answer when you have had issues and then getting pissed at her for it seems a bit odd. But you seem angry at him for throwing up his hands and calling the school - my
reaction was to you asking him to work with her and his version of that. Seems like it took two to tango here. Do you usually work with her and asked him to do this, or were you trying to find another way to get her to participate?

DeHe

Yes, it was an alternative method in an effort to get her to set aside some mental roadblocks, since she's taken to tuning me out, and her avoidance in this particular class is, well, turned up to eleven, shall we say...

He simply doesn't listen to me about her learning style or her level of manipulation/avoidance. He's also been putting it off and letting her "play" for the last four days instead of getting to it, but that's another issue. I am plenty mad at him for handling the situation so badly, for sure. I got mad at her this morning not over the math test, but over the fact that she planned to only get 2-4 hours of sleep and because this was in the wake of me taking her computer yesterday after discovering her on CoolMath when she was supposed to be entering a (completed) English exam.

SHE is the one who is all in a tizzy over her grades. Seriously. This isn't us. We don't really care, but she went berserk last semester chasing straight A+'s. Even though they confer no additional advantage to her, GPA-wise. Well, I don't care, anyway; DH does, I think. My only concern is that the school environment currently leaves me holding the whip since there aren't a lot of deadlines-- so procrastination as a performance-avoidant strategy makes a lot of sense to my 11yo, if you KWIM. Oh, sure, the consequences are pretty bad. But they're a long way off (end of the term, really).



Exactly-- it isn't like he washes his hands of the problem if we send her off to school. She's going to come home with homework, after all, and she won't want to do THAT, either. Particularly not since it will all be material she was bored to tears by the first time she saw it.


It's also really unlikely that B&M school would be anything positive at this point, since they have even less differentiation than she's used to, and since the work would be even easier than she had four years ago, it would likely FEED that performance-driven perfectionism even further, probably with additional problems on top as a result of the disability + social issues this opens up.

It's a nightmare beyond my ability to even wrap my brain around it, honestly.

There seems to be a lot of emotion circling around this math class in particular. Sounds like your DH is just fed up (understandably perhaps) and went with a kind of dramatic, but maybe unrealistic, "solution".

Finding a math tutor would be a less radical solution than switching to "traditional school" but might really help diffuse the situation. Especially since it sounds like the other classes are going fine with the virtual school.

Well, not "fine," really...
there are other problems, mostly related to perfectionism and the assessment scheme being what it is with the virtual school (lots of multiple choice, very few open-ended or discussion assessments, mostly 3-5 item assessments where one wrong answer drops more than a letter grade on the assignment).

So the right B&M placement could be awesome academically, and be terrific for her. It would come with terrible risks... but there could be a point where that might be worth it.


I mean, I know what is going on in her head. I just don't have any handle on fixing it.

She's decided that having to work means she's not as smart as she thinks (traumatic), and that self-handicapping or avoidance is a better solution than facing her fears and risking "failure" in the course with an authentic effort at the material.

It's going to happen again at some point with other subjects. I predict physics would be next, actually. Maybe statistics.

Yes, I think it was just a dramatic act on his part, but honestly, it's unfathomable to me on either the disability level (seriously-- that alone would make many school administrators quake), or the PG one.

She's one of those "unteachable" kids. When she hits a wall, boy, she's sullen and uncooperative and just all out NASTY-- because it makes her feel stupid, YK?

She's a 110%, solid-gold Perfectionist who HATES work that isn't meaningful, but fears failure. Putting the bar lower for someone like that just seems to be counter to every bit of advice on the subject. But DH won't hear it from me (and he wonders where DD gets that refractory streak from). <ugh>

HK
I have to say, this so so stressful. Are you getting any breaks?

Do you think he got mad because in a sense he got played? I mean it's okay if she does this stuff to you, but she wouldn't do this to him!

Family dynamics are always fun to begin with, throw in health issues, PG and homeschooling and I think you officially have your hands full.

I haven't BTDT yet, but I have BTDT with the different approaches to parenting and teaching. Maybe the two of them should sit down and figure out what went wrong and why, you know what you would do differently, but maybe some problem solving from them would reframe in a way that you thought having him take the lead would?

Would love to be more helpful!

DeHe

DeHe, I think that is exactly what was eating him. He secretly congratulates himself with the knowledge that he would never be sucked into DD's dramatics, never get played by her (though I try to tell him how wily she can be), etc. etc. He fantasizes about ME going to work so that HE could stay home and work with her...

(He has a sibling who has a similar mix of personality and behavioral traits to DD, too, so there's parenting better than his mom and dad managed wrapped up in this, too.)

It definitely doesn't help that he feels helpless in the face of her hormonal angst, and doesn't understand how self-handicapping and performance-avoidance works.



Just talking to someone else is helpful. They've gone off to a community college art class together, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they both come home unscathed...

LOL.

Ditto DeHe on taking a break!

My DH is a "fix the problem" kind of person, and I can see him doing exactly what your DH did. He sees that his method of "helping" with the math didn't work, he feels like he failed, and he needs to find a solution. But sending your DD to middle school as "punishment" doesn't sound like a good plan.

I would try to look for common ground with DH (once you aren't mad anymore) - you both want your daughter to be happy and successful and not have her schooling take up so much emotional energy in the house. Maybe make a list of options?

Hi Howler,

I don't have any advice on fixing the problem because we're so far away from that point, but I do get a sense of escalating tension and a certain amount of isolation because of your circumstances. I know that everyone here has given you really thoughtful advice, but because you're not at liberty to explain the whole situation and because, really, it is very complex, I really think you'd benefit from finding someone else to talk to for yourself. At the moment you sound a lot like what happens in my head when I am dealing with a really stressful situation. It becomes a whirlwind of frustration and endless thinking and I can no longer see for looking (I'm not saying the answer is right in front of you, just that I know I stop being able to see the bigger picture, which I need when I'm problem solving). Without having someone to support you at home, I'd really recommend finding someone outside of that space just to give you someone objective to speak to.

I really do feel for you. It sounds like such a stressful situation. I have often thought your dd sounds very much like an older version of my dd and I anticipate similar issues (though without the added stress of a disability in our case). Best of luck and do take care of yourself.

Hi Howler,
I hope you manage to find a psychologist/counselor/neuropsych whose word you feel comfortable with and trust. This is a situation that very much sounds like everyone has had too much and has gone to their seperate corners, not easily meeting in the middle. It seems like a hard situation, and there are a lot of conflicting points of view.

I don't know what she truly has going on, but she does sound like she needs support and help. I know I have said this before, but what if it isn't that she doesn't want to, it's that she is avoiding because of a LD or other issue. That causes avoidant behavior as well.

Example: Me. I am MG to PG. Most of my life, I read at the back of the class and caused no problems: did my homework easily, didn't have to study. No one caught that this was avoidance behavior. In MIT, I found myself stuck in a tangle of being a perfectionist, but not being able to force myself to study. I *could* study in the sense that I could learn the material, but everything distracted me, I couldn't focus, and I felt like a complete failure. I graduated by the skin of my teeth.

The reason I brought up ADHD inattentive is that it's the one that I fit, and it put my personal struggles into a different light. It wasn't that I had no will power or no ability to be responsible, but it was that I was dealing with a real personal handicap. I might have this combined with Aspeger's like my son does.

My point with the example is that sometimes a very capable kid who seems like they should be able to do something shows the avoidance behavior for a very real reason that needs to be addressed. Then, avoidance behavior can be seen in a completely new light that lets everyone get a handle on it. And, it eases your own pressure because you have at least an explanation, even if it brings with it a wealth of different hard work.

I've never met Annemarie Roeper, but I've always wished for a way to spend time with her. Just from the little I know about you HM, from reading your posts here, I get the idea that you and Annemarie would really see eye-to-eye. Dr. Roeper's assesment of giftedness doesn't result in a number, rather in important information to guide the parents.
http://roeperconsultationservice.blogspot.com/2010/11/testimonials-for-annemarie-roeper-edds.html

I think this is worth reconsidering. And I also really think it would be worth the time and money to do a phone consult with Gatto-Walden. (or Roeper as Grinity suggests) I know ideally you need someone local, but since options there are limited, I really think it is worth getting the perspective of someone outside the family who has lots of experience working with pg kids and families.

How incredibly frustrating.

My thought is that pretty much anything you do at this point is likely to make it worse. You need outside help. If that can't happen for a while I think your best bet would be to push the pause button. Be honest with your daughter "we are worried about what is happening and we don't know hot to best fix it. We know you are capable but something about the way this course is set up just isn't working We know there are answers out there that will get us all feeling better but we need to get help to fine them."

Meanwhile if you haven't already done so I would explore what kinds of options you have available for the "pause" button. Can she take a "w" or an "incomplete" math and start again with a new strategy and new supports in the fall?

Have you looked into the possibility of a phone consultation if travel is out of the question?

I also meant to address your comments below about perfectionism. I am sure you right that it will reoccur again. However, with help in the time before that happens you may find an entirely different reaction next time. Therapy and learning new coping strategies can make a HUGE difference. They certainly have here.

Let's talk financing, I would. One of these gifted specialist therapists, how would they be paid? Could you get a referal from your local psychiatrist for one that specialized then have it covered by insurance, like ear, nose, and throat guys? If not, if the out-of-town specialist (gifted therapist) had to be paid out of pocket could they be hired as consultants to kind of guide the local (insurance eligible) therapists and then there's less billing hours. Does Dys help find gifted-related headshrinkers? Do headshrinkers offer free initial consultations like attorneys offer on tv, so she could call, tell them the situation. Then they could tell her how they could help and what it would cost for their service, and stuff like that.

Plus what ptp said two posts back.

Honestly--I think at this point, even if paying the counselor a boatload out of pocket has to go on the credit card, it is worth it. It is probably likely to be quite expensive for the level of expertise you need to at least point you in the right direction, but I think the investment would be priceless.

Thanks again to everyone for such terrific support and feedback.

It was truly like an epiphany yesterday to read Siegle and McCoach.

VERY much an "AHA!!!" kind of moment for me.

A nice summary of different types of motivation in the context of Goal Theory

Siegle and McCoach, 2005

Always before, we'd been looking at a single dimension of behavior, trying on various labels and feeling that it wasn't quite right... I mean, sure, we've seen some signs of executive function deficits... SOME signs of affective disorder, etc... but there were these untidy tendrils of other stuff that refused to fit in that box.

I am reminded of the parable about the blind group studying an elephant by feeling its parts, and then describing it to one another...

Reading about performance avoidance in the context of perfectionism made EVERYTHING crystal clear. I'm completely serious-- EVERYTHING about her fits it. Everything.

So I spent some time last night just chatting with DD (low pressure once I got DH to quit interjecting his 0.02c every ten seconds) and asked her a few questions (in the direction of Siegle's ideas on the subject)...

Her answers were illuminating and confirmed everything about my suspicions. It broke my heart, too, to see the true depth of her pain.

Me:
What feels like "success" to you? How do you define that for yourself?

DD: 97% or above is okay. 100% is what I call "successful." Less than an A+ isn't successful, because I should have done better. (* note here that she has NEVER heard such a thing from us. EVER.)


So 100% is how you know that you have been successful, then. How does it feel to earn 100% on things?

Initially, she cavilled here and noted that "she wouldn't know, being such a failure..." after which I pointed out that she recently earned 100% (the R+J essay, in fact). She then said: "Yes, but that wasn't really my work. I mean, it was me writing, but it wasn't all my ideas." (*This is ludicrous, frankly. She said stuff here about not feeling like she 'can do it on her own' which is CRAZY, since she apparently feels that if she talks to classmates, teachers or US about a subject/assignment, then she's "just using other peoples' ideas." )

So you earn 100% sometimes, but you don't seem very happy to have met your goal. Can you tell me about that?

Her answer here indicated that she feels "relieved, but mostly just tired, and sometimes like a fake," in the wake of success. Her words.

How do you feel when you don't meet your goal? I mean, how does it feel when you earn a grade less than an 'acceptable' one?

Worthless. Ashamed.


She has tried to reach out to the Special Ed teacher for help with study skills (which she knows she lacks, since she didn't need to learn them in 4th-5th grade-- and so she didn't), but the teacher seems to not know what to make of this kind to plea in a student who has no LDs and is so obviously capable. In other words, DD feels that her attempts at self-advocacy have been fruitless.

She is uncomfortable with the challenge of the math course. She doesn't know that she can earn an A+, and it bothers her because it makes her feel stupid to have to take a risk like that. It also makes her cranky to need help-- she's based a lot of her self-image on being "super-kid" (and she's had plenty of reinforcement there, very little of it from us), and it threatens her very identity if she can't succeed spectaculary just by crooking her pinky, as it were.
_____________________

My heart was just breaking for her. It is so crystal clear to me that this has been caused by her innate personality and a school placement which allows for no real academic challenge-- other than PERFECTION itself. In the absense of any other possible "goal" that became DD's only goal. Now that is slipping away from her, and it's spilling over into everything else. All of what we are seeing-- the insomnia, the disordered eating, the sloppiness with self-care-- all of that fits.


So yes, counselor/psychologist. NO, NO, NO to local middle school enrollment. At least DH understood that this morning, as I pointed out to him that my personal take on this was that they would leverage inappropriate academics to weed out the disability.

He seems to understand how ludicrous the suggestion to have DD sit through three more YEARS of math (that she already earned straight A's in the first time through) actually is in this context.

So-- much better on the home front. Hey, we're all Emotionally OE people, and all HG. It is what it is.

We aren't yet sure what to do about math. On the one hand, letting her back away from an (appropriate) challenge may act as a reinforcer for "you're right-- you ARE incompetent," at this point, any grade she earns in the course isn't going to make the situation any better. Then again, even the A+'s she's earning aren't making her feel any better, either.

My gut says that the only "right" thing here is to keep tabs on her, keep SUPPORTING her through the course with extra help and interaction, and send her the message that she is capable.

Oddly, I feel better about the situation having figured out the underlying problem. I mean, yes we need professional help. Definitely.

Now, though, we know that we need to be moving her away from activities which are about "judging" and "scores/grades" into mastery activities that are non-competitive in nature.

We also finally have some insight into why no method of intrinsic or extrinsic motivation has ever seemed to work for her for any length of time. She's impervious to punishment or rewards.

I have to say thank you in particular to Grinity for pointing me (gently) at perfectionism early on, here. It wasn't until I started listening and looking at the evidence (and there's a mountain of it) that I thought to look harder at the ways that perfectionism can manifest.

Hi MammaKarma!
Great to hear that you have a game plan. I love those links you put up there - excellent work which will be very useful to many of us here!

Glad to hear that your DH is backing off the Middle school button.

The good news is that now you have a working theory to go on.

I was struck by this:


Love and More Love,
Grinity

lol!

I can tell you that figuring this out now and addressing this issue now is such a gift to your dd. This forum and other research I have done over the past year to help my dds has really made me reflect on my own past choices, and perfectionism/fear of failure played a significant role--choosing classes in high school, college, career choices, etc. And sadly, for me, and now I see it in my dd, the perfectionism is in the areas where we have perhaps the most natural talent and passion and somehow then an even higher expectation of A+ performance therefore greater fear of failure and so it goes. I will be very interested to follow your progress in guiding your dd through this!

I do feel like this is the situation where CBT (with someone who gets giftedness) could be very helpful. Maybe someone has personal experience that could shed some light.

I think so, as well, deacongirl.

I have some familiarity with CBT-- used some of those techniques to deal with my own self-handicapping as an undergraduate. Once I realized what the problem was, that is.

I also know abuse survivors who have had a great deal of success using CBT to alter their thought processes and responses to stimuli.

Credit cards are there for a reason, therapy being a darn good one. I was voting in favor spending extra on an out of network therapist. If insurance doesn't cover what your kid needs you have to pay cash. Whatever's best for the kid, of course. I was just asking about cost because it still matters. According to(cite tv) financial stress breaks up family's, SN's strain households, etc. fishing for some BTDT guides to make it easier on HK. Feel free to pm HK, lol.
(about insurance and gifted specialists)

La Texican - to answer your questions about financing - It is hard to give an exact dollar amount because rates vary a lot and what insurance will cover varies a lot. Given the child has disabilities most likely if Howler has decent insurance she will be able to get IQ and acheivement testing done by someone local and get that covered. Without a question of medical diagnosis most insurance won't cover educational testing.

If she wants to go out of network and see an out of network gifted specialist it is going to depend a lot on her insurance whether she can get that reimbursed. Also, as you may know, it is now the case that many mental health specialists no longer accept insurance.

One option for Howler might be to get the testing done locally and then get it reviewed by a gifted specialist out of area. She'd need to make individual inquiries to find out about the costs for that.

I agree with the poster who suggested this is money well spent. Getting a good evaluation and therapy saved us a lot of heartache and hassle.

HowlerKarma,
I am soooo glad that you found an answer that fits. I am really excited for you. I remember the moment that I went, with my children, from being angry and hurt and feeling helpless to understanding and being able to be supportive. It's a very difficult shift to make.:) But, you, your husband, and your daughter will be so much better off.

Best of luck and keep us updated.:)

Here's another REALLY AWESOME link that explains how perfectionism can look like a motivational problem, or sort of like an executive function one:

When A High Distinction isn't enough: a review of perfectionism and self-handicapping

This may be my favorite one of all, in fact. It's the one that made the neon all come on for me personally, anyway.

My profound thanks again to everyone here; you've been so kind and helpful.

It goes without saying that there's nobody that I can talk to outside of our family about this IRL without sounding like I'm insane. I know it looks like the pressures of high school are "finally getting to her" because she's eleven years old, and that we should just "let her be a kid/quit hothousing" and this would fix itself, but that is just not our reality. I'm so grateful to have found a group of people that don't automatically assume that.

Thanks for posting that link. I'm a self handicapper, and never recognized that so cleanly before or had a good term for it.

CBT has been invaluable to me for depression, and the skills have lasted and been broadly applicable. Not that I'm not still also skilled at faulty thinking in some settings and under some stresses! I'm going to go back and look at other reading suggestions in this thread. A CBT book that was useful to me years ago was "Feeling good: the new mood therapy" by David Burns.
Best wishes for finding solutions for your family-

There is a book about perfectionism...

Is it this the one?
http://www.amazon.com/Freeing-Families-Perfectionism-Thomas-Greenspon/dp/1575421038
(sorry, maybe someone else will remember...)


I think it would do you well to keep having those conversations with your DD. Does she feel that she figured this out herself or does she recall that this was impressed upon her at one point (re: 100% = success)? Does she remember when she first started believing this and why?
- Could she imagine the world being not quite like that?

Also, I think your DD is getting "imposter syndrome"

I think also it would be good for your DD to know that Almost All gifted children and adults struggle with perfectionism and imposter syndrome. Many women definitely do.

For you to review (not necessarily for your DD directly):
http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/ADJ/gtadultart.htm
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/imposter.htm

That she isn't alone in the "strong" intense feelings that she may have. That others have had these feelings, etc etc.

Howler, have you shared with your DD about yourself growing up? I'm wondering ... would your DD like to be understood? Would she like to know why she feels what she feels? Sometimes knowing why we feel what we feel can set us partially free. We feel what we feel - there is no right or wrong to it.

Sorry not so helpful here.
But wishing you and your family well.

This is where the Living with Intensity book would come in and be very helpful imo.

Holey smokes Jesse! Thanks for the links on impostor syndrome...I just learned something very valuable that explains a lot about myself there.

HK, I have been following this thread because so much of this sounds like my DD at that age and although I don't have any answers, I sympathize so much with what you have been going through. I made some bad/ignorant assumptions regarding my DD, and she suffered unnecessarily for a long time because of them.

Thankfully for your DD and your family, you are finding helpful answers early.

I actually HAVE a copy of the book now, which is bound to be more helpful than... well, than not having it. LOL.

Yes, I have begun sharing more information with my DD about my own experiences as an adolescent. I'd been reluctant to do that, primarily because-- um, how to say... some of my choices for 'coping' were highly.. er... maladaptive. I didn't want to feel like I was giving her tacit PERMISSION for those things. Sort of how former potheads don't necessarily want to SHARE that with their own teens, if you KWIM.

But it was a real epiphany for DD to hear that I also felt 'out of place and out of tune' at least to some degree with ANY peer group-- until graduate school, really.

I related intellectually to those 4-10 years older than myself, and at the same time, to fit in with those people SOCIALLY, I had to lay low and/or pretend to be older than I really was. to this day, many of my friends still assume that I am four to five years older than I actually am. (Well, if they see me in person they assume that I look VERY young for my age, which I do, but not THAT young...)

I have shared experiences that keep me out of sync with my age mates. And I'm in my forties.

I'm the queen of self-handicapping. Seriously, if there's a method, I've used it at some point. I did it not because I was a perfectionist in the classic sense, and certainly not to the extent that DD feels that internal pressure, but because I had such awful self-esteem and the ONLY thing that I had was "I'm smart." I couldn't bear the chance of gaining evidence to the contrary-- so I'd rather engineer failure and live the dream. At some point in my undergraduate years, I finally seemed to get comfortable in my own skin somehow and it just stopped.

Has DD heard messages from us that have exacerbated the problem? Undoubtedly. But not intentionally or overtly, by any stretch. More because of her personality and motivational style, and because of lack of sufficient challenge in her educational placement, coupled with us being TOO aware of "how not to praise" a child who is HG+. So we've always praised effort, strong work ethic, etc. NOT NOT NOT 'results' and definitely not innate ABILITY. Nobody has EVER said to her "I'm so proud of your A+ grades."

What we have said, however, is things like "Just do your best." Under an appropriate academic challenge, that is a fine statement and a supportive and helpful one... but in the absense of a real challenge, that becomes... "My best is 100%/perfection. Ergo, if I don't earn perfect marks, I have not done MY BEST." This is only exacerbated when assessments are the type she's been used to over the past few years, where a single dumb-bunny moment (and hey-- we all have them, yes?) can cost her dearly in terms of her class grade... oh, and she can SEE IT HAPPEN IN REAL TIME-- IMMEDIATE FEEDBACK. Besides, what about those things that don't really require pulling out all the stops mentally? What about that? Should she still "do her best" in the ludicrous test prep course that all students must participate in for NCLB high stakes testing preparation? It hardly requires that.

Does that make sense?



I've also shared some of my personal experiences with imposter syndrome with her. I think this relates to not having a true peer group, in some respects. You habituate to that sense of "hiding" in groups of people in order to gain social acceptance, and eventually one internalizes that. It becomes something you take for granted, and assume MUST be true at all times, even as an adult among genuine peers. I know I did. Totally my own crack-pot theory, that; I have no idea if anyone reputable has connected those two things.

Who cares about the kids--where do I sign up for CBT? lol! (except of course...not...)

I'm re-raising this thread after all this time to provide a one-year-out update. I know that I updated things just after Christmas this year in the Brag thread, but wanted to address some things more specifically with the benefit of some additional hindsight.

I'm so glad that we didn't follow through on having my DD evaluated by the ADD/ADHD and mood disorder specialists that she was slated to see.

I have no doubt in my mind that at the time, she could easily have been diagnosed with depression, a generalized anxiety disorder or ADD, and maybe even ODD. I feel like we really lucked out in not having that happen, because it would have cost us dearly in both time and money to get all of that sorted and reevaluated by specialists just to get those incorrect labels scrubbed.

The plethora of symptoms VANISHED as soon as the school year ended. Yes, really. Within a week we had our daughter back, and she had a terrific summer.

I look back on this period of time as an object lesson in some respects. Several things to note there, which is why I re-raised the thread, because it might be tempting to frame this as a poor school fit issue (which in some ways it was, and in some ways it wasn't), or perhaps as a cautionary tale from the radical acceleration front (which would be profoundly misinterpreting things, IMO).

1. No matter HOW good you can make everything else in a child's life, if the educational environment is fundamentally inappropriate, every little bump in the road (and let's face it, there are a lot of those in growing up) is a potential derailment.

2. Perfectionism can grow to monstrous proportions even in a kid who has had teachers and parents do everything humanly possible to prevent it from being established.

3. Adolescence is just plain hard on all kids, and asynchronous development can make it much harder and lonelier.

4. I might think that my child is a "good" kid who would "never do" certain things... but all kids are individual people with individual wills of their own. We had no idea the scope of the computer escapism that was happening under our noses, and we're pretty savvy and we are home with her all the time.

5. Kids are kids, no matter how bright, and they lack life experience to draw from when making emotional judgments. DD lacked more rigid/strict parenting models in her comparative world (which was mostly comprised of friends whose parents are truly 'free-range' parenting afficionados). Naturally, moderate modern parenting looks 'stifling' and 'controlling' by comparison with that. LOL. Now that she's got a few friends whose parents are less permissive than we are, she has a lot less angst about her own situation.


In retrospect, this was a perfect storm that no amount of planning or foresight could really have predicted. We had a super-achiever entering high school without ever having been sufficiently challenged, plus adolescent angst and hormonal mood-swings, plus grief, plus perfectionism, plus lack of an authentic peer group, plus some degree of positive disintegration and questioning of self-identity happening all at once.

DD just turned 13, and I'm very happy to report that she is not even remotely the same deeply anxious and unhappy waif that she was 15 months ago. This last school year, at least on the face of things, should have proven far, far more difficult; we had some critical administrative changes, a nasty science teacher who took an instant, active dislike to my daughter and several of her peers (ultimately so bad that we insisted on a different teacher second term, and weren't the only ones), a second teacher who was so wildly inconsistent in grading and so awful in communication that it nearly drove DD crazy (this teacher's parting shot to DD was a quick note telling her that she should be especially proud of her A in his honors course, "considering her age"-- AUGH!!), and a parent disabled for months by a severe injury. Astonishingly, she weathered all of it with a great deal of grace and resilience.

She's made new (better??) friends, expanded some extracurricular activities, and is happier than we've seen her in years. While she still doesn't love the school situation, visiting our local high school and speaking at length with them last fall made a huge difference to her (I think it felt "real" to her and more authentic, as though she were not really an "imposter" but truly a peer of any of those students), as did spending more time at our local university. She has also grown about four inches and no longer looks so obviously like a young child... she can "pass" enough to fly under the radar in high school and college settings, which pleases her enormously. It was an epiphany for her to visit the university library and get a courtesy/resident card.

She will be 'skipping' 10th grade and officially become an 11th grader year next fall. We elected to press onward and get her a high school diploma in the most expedient and least painful manner possible, and then get her into college classes where the situation will improve w/r/t fit.

I'm very certain that radical acceleration didn't cause any of her problems-- those problems might well have been far worse without it. If anything, we may have erred in not being more aggressive with acceleration. We have spent the past year working on developing DD's study skills, and being willing to step in when the school gets it wrong (before, I think we were too afraid of seeming like helicopter parents).

She has made tremendous strides in a number of areas, maturity-wise; she's better about time management and task persistence, better about being self -motivated even with intrinsically unrewarding tasks (e.g. 'busywork'), better about being willing to fail as part of LEARNING, and better by far about note-taking and the other bothersome minutiae that we deemed areas needing better development prior to post-secondary education. We, in turn, have admitted more openly that there are some ways in which her school is a failed model, and we have agreed that while we may 'play the game,' there will be NO MORE pretending in our house as to drinking the Kool Aid. Don't ask, don't tell is one thing, but we're done lying to ourselves and we're done being used by the school. Crap is crap, and we won't defend it or sugar-coat it anymore, even if we do tell her when she has to play along anyway. "Yeah, sorry-- but you DO have to take even stupid, multiple-choice, trivial pursuit exams closed notes if those are the rules, but you CAN and should call teachers to ask questions if things are weird, ambiguous, or flatly incorrect." (She makes a lot of phone calls to teachers. Heheh.) We will offer real alternatives to the stupid and meaningless as long as she holds up her end of this bargain. Authentic learning and mastery are what WE (meaning she and we) care about and determine for ourselves, not necessarily what earns 100% from any particular class teacher. Grades are kind of arbitrary in this system given what assessment looks like, anyway, and anything above 90% is generally fine by us. If things dip below that, she can expect that we'll ask why (but with an eye toward helping her to figure out how to FIX THINGS, not in judgment). She has responded very well to this, and as expected, excellence generally produces its own A's automatically. Dean's list honor roll, but now without all of the sound and fury, quite pleasantly for all of us. No more Olympic-level procrastination-as-motivation!! Hallelujah! She has also stepped back into roles as a student leader, and returned to a more philanthropic way of viewing the world.

Fortunately, she has had a remarkable English composition teacher repeatedly since 6th grade, and will have her again next year for AP. She's HG+ herself, demands really remarkable thoughtful work from DD, challenging her and offering a truly meaningful educational environment. DD just polished off TWO honors English courses this past year (one with the aforementioned teacher), and aced them both quite handily. This did two things-- it taught DD that she could cope with a lot of writing at once, and it also conveyed to her that we (meaning her parents, and the school counselor/administrators) respect her choices and trust her to make the right decisions for herself personally.

Two advanced English courses at once was a much better balance for her. It provided her with a lot more literature to sink her teeth into, which was far more appropriate and less choppy/frustrating for her personally. Next year, she'll take some AP coursework, but we've carefully vetted which teachers will be teaching those courses, and chosen classes with teachers in mind, since this is a very important part of things for DD as a learner.

She needs direct instruction and interaction as part of her preferred Socratic learning process, and now she sees that college has that to offer. Her school (Connections Academy) has moved further and further away from that model, unfortunately, in preference for a "student should 'own their own learning' (oh BARF) model" and therefore canned, prerecorded instructional multimedia clips and an all-online platform is their "vision" for the future. (Yes, really. They are phasing out physical materials like textbooks and laboratory exercises, synchronous live instruction, etc. in favor if "e-books" and "virtual" labs.) Oy. I have my own opinions about that shift and how it relates to Pearson's acquisition of the company, and the for-profit nature of this corporate entity, but that is neither here nor there.

This is placing us in a race against time, thus the additional acceleration. Why bother at all? Well, two reasons; a) DD is an NHS officer, and she's proud of her accomplishments academically-- she hasn't asked for a lot of things in her life, but walking with honors at age 14 (maybe even being Valedictorian) is one of those things, and b) in our state, a person MAY NOT sit for a G.E.D. until they are 18 years of age, and no public university is necessarily obliged to offer admittance to any person without either a GED or high school diploma.

The difference, though, is that with honest dialogue on everyone's part, she now KNOWS that we are her advocates. Always. Therefore, she is far more cooperative with our requests/demands/instructions, and the trust we've reestablished here has paid dividends in helping to tame that perfectionistic monster-- we step in right away when we see evidence that it is trying to surface.
________________________________________

The short version? Don't panic-- it gets better.

Sometimes kids go through a rough spot that doesn't necessarily point to pathology; look to environmental causes first and foremost, and trust your gut. Sometimes problems are just the result of asynchrony and frustration, and there's nothing more complicated going on.

Adolescence with an intense HG+ child is not for the faint of heart, and in a child that has been an e-ticket ride from the start, it certainly doesn't get easier in the preteen/teen years.

Howler - what a FABULOUS update! It was so lovely reading that and realising that the bumps we face on the road to raising these awesome kids of ours are just that - bumps, and they can be overcome, AND growth for everyone can come from overcoming the challenges!

I am so so glad for her and for you - all the best for the upcoming academic year

Great to hear! Thanks for the update and the reminder.
Grinity

I'm updating this yet again-- and re-raising this thread for a couple of others.


DD is now 15, and in college. She is enjoying college, but is having to unlearn some of the maladaptive coping mechanisms that she had to adopt in order to cope with the level of crazy and incomprehensible demands and expectations in secondary coursework.

She is also having to face her perfectionism and accept uncertainty in outcomes. That has been difficult.

I'm not sure that keeping her with her virtual school was entirely the right decision-- though it DID simplify applying to colleges. Oh, and she did graduate #1, but unfortunately other circumstances meant that she didn't get to actually enjoy commencement as she'd hoped. It was a bit anticlimactic in the end.