Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Should I be working with DS on WM and PS?

Hi all! I know there was a thread that was at least tangentially about this not long ago, but I couldn't find it quickly, and decided it wasn't worth a lengthy search. Thanks for your patience with me...

I woke up this morning musing about DS6's math issues, and I was hoping for some thoughts, opinions, and suggestions from all of you.

Some background: We're HSing, and I have found that DS6 and I tend to have trouble working together on math. He's SOOOOO SLOOOOOW! It has made me crazy. It just seems like it should not take an hour to work three problems. And it's not that the concepts are too hard for him. He just dawdles and forgets where he is and has to start over and...It's been frustrating to watch. Before we had him tested with the WISC, I was not handling the situation with grace and patience, I must admit. (In my defense, his public school teachers didn't handle it very well either, not even the good teacher he had!)

Happily for us, the WISC helped me to better understand what's going on with him. His Working Memory tested at 123 and his Processing Speed at only 109, versus his GAI of 144 and his Perceptual Reasoning of 151. I realize this is not unusual--in fact, I think it may be the norm, no? But it has become clear to me that I am seeing the effects of this divide in DS6's math efforts.

DS6 starts a math problem that is challenging (but not too hard for him conceptually speaking), yet he can't work fast enough to hold it all in his head, and so he loses his place and winds up lost in the ether. Before the WISC, I just saw it as his dawdling and messing around; now I see that it's related to his abilities and he can't help it. It looks more like a 2E issue to me now, though I don't think it really qualifies as such, since he's not below average in any area. (Is that right?) Anyway, my patience level has gone way up, so that's good. Math is not the battle that it was quickly becoming. We're both relaxing.

This is all good. But I'm wondering if rather than simply accepting that this is how he is, should I be working with him to improve his speed and memory? Are there things I should be doing to boost these areas of relative weakness so that he's not hampered by them? If so, what? Specific resources would be great to get from you, if that's called for in his situation.

I'm not really all that interested in hot-housing for coding speed. But if this discrepancy in his abilities is handicapping him--and I do think it is--then perhaps I should be working with him.

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

Thanks! I appreciate all the help I know I'm going to get. I love this board!

Kriston,

If you don�t mind (and since you�ve shared the other scores), what was your son�s verbal reasoning score? Judging by his GAI, it must be a bit lower than his perceptual reasoning, right?

His working memory score is very strong and his processing speed is average for gifted. So, I�m wondering if this is more than phase, if it could be some type of LD.

As for what qualifies for LD (when the child performs at or above grade level), I believe it depends on the state and/or district policies and where the evaluators received their professional education and experience and the philosophy of those programs.

CFK, your son's PS took a giant leap from one test to the other. Do you think that maybe his age difference contributed to the rise (and obtaining higher levels on video games)?

Thanks, CFK. This is exactly what I'm wondering.

Since PS and WM are on an IQ test, the assumption--rightly or wrongly there!--is that they're something innate.

But then again, there's a whole industry built up around "improve your memory" and "speed reading" and those sorts of WM and PS sorts of things.

I know you can improve your ability to remember things if you use mnemonics and such, and you can do things faster if you practice them, so I guess I don't believe that WM and PS are completely innate. Or am I misunderstanding the whole concept there? Maybe it's the difference between achievement testing and IQ testing? You can do better if you work harder, but you can't change what nature gave you?

I have no problem with sharing scores, especially to get help from those more knowledgeable than I am!

His VCI is 132.

What makes you think it might be an honest-to-goodness LD? That's something I wasn't really thinking about. I just tossed in the part about it seeming like an LD as an aside, to explain the situation. But now you've got me wondering...

He reads at the 6th grade level with virtually no trouble even though it's not his strongest area. (I often wonder if I should be giving him harder work to actually challenge him in reading.) But he's only at the 3rd grade level in math, and though some of the work is easy, it DOES seem like nearly everything is harder for him in math than it should be, given his WISC scores. I know IQ test scores are not everything, but his facility with patterns and shapes seems like it should make math easier than it is for him.

Since we're HSing, I guess I'm less concerned about "official" state/district policies of LD and the practical, working definitions, at least for now. However, perhaps I should also be thinking about an official LD diagnosis if one is needed for next year, when we're half-time at the GT school.

Hmmm...

Yes, I'm with you! I've worked on that, and thus the more relaxed approach I'm taking to his math work.

No more stressing how long it takes him to finish. No nagging him with "Hurry up!" and "Stop messing around!" I'm much more conscious of the amount of work I give him, and when he finishes that limited amount, he's done. However long that takes.

But I can't help thinking that I should be helping him more in this area...Stretching his rubber band a bit more!

We posted at the same time again!

I know what you mean about the big leaps in one area. But he's been ahead verbally for his whole life, really. Aside from his facility with puzzles and mazes that we saw from his earliest days, the math leap just hasn't come for him. Ever. In fact, this year is the closest he's come to a math leap, since he started the year pretty much at grade level, and he's finished 2 full years in about 5 months.

Now, I'd bet that some of the math issue was because I wasn't enriching his learning in math like I was in reading, since I'm a verbal person myself, and his verbal talents were impossible to miss, while his math ones weren't as obvious. But there does seem to be something else going on, too. I don't think that explains what I see from day-to-day in math class!

I thought the discrepency in the WM and PS scores and the PRI might explain it, but maybe there's more there?

"What makes you think it might be an honest-to-goodness LD? That's something I wasn't really thinking about. I just tossed in the part about it seeming like an LD as an aside, to explain the situation. But now you've got me wondering..."

Nothing you have said has made me think he has some LD! I�m just brain-storming with you and am definitely not an expert. Even an expert couldn�t tell you if you have anything to watch without future information and evaluation. I didn�t mean to alarm you.

I have read about a particular type of math difficulty where specifically, the sequential steps of a math problem are the root of the problem. I believe it is classified as a sub-set of dyslexia rather than a LD.

I am really talking off the top of my head now. I haven�t read about this in over a year, so I can�t direct you to anything specific right now. I also have to step out for errands, but I will look for a link later.

Your son is profoundly gifted! That just makes everything else more complicated!

No worries, friend! I'm not alarmed.

I just thought you might be onto something, and maybe you knew more than I do. (It wouldn't take much--in the area of LDs and 2E and such, I'm virtually clueless! Everything I know, I read on this forum, I think!)

Don't worry that I'm going off half-cocked or anything. I'm just gathering opinions and suggestions. I appreciate yours!

Hi Kriston. This is a really interesting discussion, and in a lot of ways, I feel like my DS shows a lot of similiar patterns/behavoir.

I think math is a harder thing to just take off on. You can understand concepts, but you really need the notation and the math facts to put it together and solve problems. There are a lot of pieces involved! In reading, you can pick up an adult book and maybe pass over the words that aren't in your vocab yet and finding a meaning from the surrounding text. The same thing is really hard to do with math. Anyway - I don't have any amazing insight here, but I still think you're both doing an amazing job!

Does he have math facts down pretty well? That can make a big difference in confidence and speed for solving more involved problems?

Hey Kriston - another thing I was going to ask. Are you still working the more challenging Singapore workbooks? Have you tried giving him the more straight forward one to see how he moves through that? Maybe to introduce a new concept and then move to some harder problems?

I just know my DS is pretty intimidated by the harder workbook without having a really good understanding of the concepts ahead of time. And those workbooks are really great, but I'm thinking they are a lot more challenging problems than the average 3rd grader sees.