Hi all! I know there was a thread that was at least tangentially about this not long ago, but I couldn't find it quickly, and decided it wasn't worth a lengthy search. Thanks for your patience with me...

I woke up this morning musing about DS6's math issues, and I was hoping for some thoughts, opinions, and suggestions from all of you.

Some background: We're HSing, and I have found that DS6 and I tend to have trouble working together on math. He's SOOOOO SLOOOOOW! It has made me crazy. It just seems like it should not take an hour to work three problems. And it's not that the concepts are too hard for him. He just dawdles and forgets where he is and has to start over and...It's been frustrating to watch. Before we had him tested with the WISC, I was not handling the situation with grace and patience, I must admit. (In my defense, his public school teachers didn't handle it very well either, not even the good teacher he had!)

Happily for us, the WISC helped me to better understand what's going on with him. His Working Memory tested at 123 and his Processing Speed at only 109, versus his GAI of 144 and his Perceptual Reasoning of 151. I realize this is not unusual--in fact, I think it may be the norm, no? But it has become clear to me that I am seeing the effects of this divide in DS6's math efforts.

DS6 starts a math problem that is challenging (but not too hard for him conceptually speaking), yet he can't work fast enough to hold it all in his head, and so he loses his place and winds up lost in the ether. Before the WISC, I just saw it as his dawdling and messing around; now I see that it's related to his abilities and he can't help it. It looks more like a 2E issue to me now, though I don't think it really qualifies as such, since he's not below average in any area. (Is that right?) Anyway, my patience level has gone way up, so that's good. Math is not the battle that it was quickly becoming. We're both relaxing.

This is all good. But I'm wondering if rather than simply accepting that this is how he is, should I be working with him to improve his speed and memory? Are there things I should be doing to boost these areas of relative weakness so that he's not hampered by them? If so, what? Specific resources would be great to get from you, if that's called for in his situation.

I'm not really all that interested in hot-housing for coding speed. But if this discrepancy in his abilities is handicapping him--and I do think it is--then perhaps I should be working with him.

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

Thanks! I appreciate all the help I know I'm going to get. I love this board!

Kriston,

If you don�t mind (and since you�ve shared the other scores), what was your son�s verbal reasoning score? Judging by his GAI, it must be a bit lower than his perceptual reasoning, right?

His working memory score is very strong and his processing speed is average for gifted. So, I�m wondering if this is more than phase, if it could be some type of LD.

As for what qualifies for LD (when the child performs at or above grade level), I believe it depends on the state and/or district policies and where the evaluators received their professional education and experience and the philosophy of those programs.

CFK, your son's PS took a giant leap from one test to the other. Do you think that maybe his age difference contributed to the rise (and obtaining higher levels on video games)?

Thanks, CFK. This is exactly what I'm wondering.

Since PS and WM are on an IQ test, the assumption--rightly or wrongly there!--is that they're something innate.

But then again, there's a whole industry built up around "improve your memory" and "speed reading" and those sorts of WM and PS sorts of things.

I know you can improve your ability to remember things if you use mnemonics and such, and you can do things faster if you practice them, so I guess I don't believe that WM and PS are completely innate. Or am I misunderstanding the whole concept there? Maybe it's the difference between achievement testing and IQ testing? You can do better if you work harder, but you can't change what nature gave you?

I have no problem with sharing scores, especially to get help from those more knowledgeable than I am!

His VCI is 132.

What makes you think it might be an honest-to-goodness LD? That's something I wasn't really thinking about. I just tossed in the part about it seeming like an LD as an aside, to explain the situation. But now you've got me wondering...

He reads at the 6th grade level with virtually no trouble even though it's not his strongest area. (I often wonder if I should be giving him harder work to actually challenge him in reading.) But he's only at the 3rd grade level in math, and though some of the work is easy, it DOES seem like nearly everything is harder for him in math than it should be, given his WISC scores. I know IQ test scores are not everything, but his facility with patterns and shapes seems like it should make math easier than it is for him.

Since we're HSing, I guess I'm less concerned about "official" state/district policies of LD and the practical, working definitions, at least for now. However, perhaps I should also be thinking about an official LD diagnosis if one is needed for next year, when we're half-time at the GT school.

Hmmm...

Yes, I'm with you! I've worked on that, and thus the more relaxed approach I'm taking to his math work.

No more stressing how long it takes him to finish. No nagging him with "Hurry up!" and "Stop messing around!" I'm much more conscious of the amount of work I give him, and when he finishes that limited amount, he's done. However long that takes.

But I can't help thinking that I should be helping him more in this area...Stretching his rubber band a bit more!

We posted at the same time again!

I know what you mean about the big leaps in one area. But he's been ahead verbally for his whole life, really. Aside from his facility with puzzles and mazes that we saw from his earliest days, the math leap just hasn't come for him. Ever. In fact, this year is the closest he's come to a math leap, since he started the year pretty much at grade level, and he's finished 2 full years in about 5 months.

Now, I'd bet that some of the math issue was because I wasn't enriching his learning in math like I was in reading, since I'm a verbal person myself, and his verbal talents were impossible to miss, while his math ones weren't as obvious. But there does seem to be something else going on, too. I don't think that explains what I see from day-to-day in math class!

I thought the discrepency in the WM and PS scores and the PRI might explain it, but maybe there's more there?

"What makes you think it might be an honest-to-goodness LD? That's something I wasn't really thinking about. I just tossed in the part about it seeming like an LD as an aside, to explain the situation. But now you've got me wondering..."

Nothing you have said has made me think he has some LD! I�m just brain-storming with you and am definitely not an expert. Even an expert couldn�t tell you if you have anything to watch without future information and evaluation. I didn�t mean to alarm you.

I have read about a particular type of math difficulty where specifically, the sequential steps of a math problem are the root of the problem. I believe it is classified as a sub-set of dyslexia rather than a LD.

I am really talking off the top of my head now. I haven�t read about this in over a year, so I can�t direct you to anything specific right now. I also have to step out for errands, but I will look for a link later.

Your son is profoundly gifted! That just makes everything else more complicated!

No worries, friend! I'm not alarmed.

I just thought you might be onto something, and maybe you knew more than I do. (It wouldn't take much--in the area of LDs and 2E and such, I'm virtually clueless! Everything I know, I read on this forum, I think!)

Don't worry that I'm going off half-cocked or anything. I'm just gathering opinions and suggestions. I appreciate yours!

Hi Kriston. This is a really interesting discussion, and in a lot of ways, I feel like my DS shows a lot of similiar patterns/behavoir.

I think math is a harder thing to just take off on. You can understand concepts, but you really need the notation and the math facts to put it together and solve problems. There are a lot of pieces involved! In reading, you can pick up an adult book and maybe pass over the words that aren't in your vocab yet and finding a meaning from the surrounding text. The same thing is really hard to do with math. Anyway - I don't have any amazing insight here, but I still think you're both doing an amazing job!

Does he have math facts down pretty well? That can make a big difference in confidence and speed for solving more involved problems?

Hey Kriston - another thing I was going to ask. Are you still working the more challenging Singapore workbooks? Have you tried giving him the more straight forward one to see how he moves through that? Maybe to introduce a new concept and then move to some harder problems?

I just know my DS is pretty intimidated by the harder workbook without having a really good understanding of the concepts ahead of time. And those workbooks are really great, but I'm thinking they are a lot more challenging problems than the average 3rd grader sees.

We've been using just the regular workbook lately, actually. So I don't think the problems are too hard for him. (And I agree 100% that the challenging/intensive workbooks are much more hard-core! The logic in them is sometimes challenging for me! I'm glad I have the answers!) The thing I liked about them was that the more challenging problems worked him harder conceptually, but didn't require more math facts knowledge or speed. That seemed useful. But lately we've just been doing things differently. I decided I wanted to make math easy for him for a while rather than challenging him. We were trying to go "deeper, not faster," but I think now my philosophy is "neither deeper nor faster"! <sheepish grin>

To answer your questions, his addition facts are down reasonably well, though not down cold. I think he stillhas to think it through rather than having everything memorized, but he can think through addition pretty fast. He's significantly slower on subtraction--sometimes has to flip it around to addition to recall it. He knows maybe half the 0-10 multiplication facts, though not usually very fast, and he knows virtually none of the division facts.

So I guess that's a "no, he doesn't really have his math facts down yet."

Should I be drilling him more, do you think? The psych warned that too much focus on memorization--"drill and kill"--would likely quash his interest in learning.

*sigh* Honestly, I have been feeling like I'm walking a tightrope on this whole math issue. Too much drill? Not enough? Mostly I've been following my gut with it--try a little and if he seems tired of it, we move on to something else. But it's hard to know if I'm giving him what he needs. I just keep reminding myself that he's doing 3rd grade math, so if we did no more math for the rest of the year, he's not behind!

Still, I can't help feeling like I'm missing something that I should be doing for him.

Ugh. It's days like this, when I'm monopolizing the forum, that I'm glad I can type fast!

Nothing usefull to add other than if you find some approaches that help, please share them??? WM and processing are the skill set we are working on.

May I ask: What's your child's situation that you're working on WM and PS? And what are you doing to work on them? Any thoughts to share?

I'd love to pick your brain as well as sharing with you what others say!

Kriston, I would bet that not having his facts down is slowing him enough that he loses his place. He obviously knows the concepts, but when he's in the middle of a problem if he has to stop and calculate, then get back on track to solving the whole problem, then I bet it's frustrating to him.
While too much rote memorization can be frustrating, sometimes it can be just as frustrating if a person doesn't have those addition/multiplication answers immediately.
GS8 complained at first, but we blocked out a week when all we did in the free time was go over his addition facts. When he got them he realized how much it helped. When he needed his subtraction facts, it only took a day, and very little complaining because he knew it would help him. Same thing with multiplication/division.
Maybe it's time to do a little memorization drills. Promise him a reward for sticking to a task that's not as fun as others. I reward myself for finishing mundane tasks, why not do the same for the kids?

That makes sense. Maybe I'll talk with him about it and see what he thinks would help him. I generally get better buy-in if he decides the time is right to do something, rather than if I tell him it's time to do something.

Hmmm...

Hk Kriston,
So glad that you are sharing your concerns. Here's how I've been thinking about things lately:

1) The bottleneck! Less profound than an outright LD, many of our kids have challenge areas that make it really difficult to teach them at their readiness level in their strengths.

2) Spiky Profiles! another way of saying the same thing - theoretically homeschooling is great for accomidating this sort of thing, but IRL it takes lots of trial and error to find the right approach, and maturity on the part of the parent to not blame the kid. Great to hear that you are getting better and better able to notice 'where he is.'

3)Math Facts are important, and Drill is about the only way to do it, although I would throw in neumonics and teach about them as a seperate non-Math class. I'd call it memorization. I'd do a full explore on what he wants to memorize, and which methods he wants to try first. I would also consider allowing him to do this while being emotionally distracted, perhaps by watching an unrelated TV Documentary, or playing a computer game. Or let him test you - have you noticed that the easiest way to memorize something is when you are quizing someone else.

For 'real math' you can let him use a calculator, perhaps making the rule that he can only use it for single digit operations, and has to 'take notes' on what he has gotten from the calculator. Also there are great tables for the facts that he can use to quickly look up the facts while using them in more complicated work. Just write 1 to 9 across the top and down the left side of the page, and allow thim to work on filling out one for addition, one for subtraction, one for multiplication and one for division. Using them over and over may help them 'seep in.' Has he read "The Number Devil?" Anyway the trick is to seperate math into two subjects, and teach each at their readiness level.

For what it's worth, I think that there are some skills that a kid just isn't going to learn before they are developmentally ready. My DS11 had Zero interest in learning to read an analoug clock in Kindy, but was happy to learn at school in first. ((shrug)) It just didn't look that difficult to me, considering the other stuff he was doing.

I think that the basic recipie for self-esteem when dealing with a spiky profile kid is this:
2x as much energy, time and resource on providing for their strengths as for working on the weaknesses.
Don't allow the weaknesses to limit the advanced work or to be left behind.
A little bit can go a long way.
Keep an eye on your mood and on your child's mood.

In other words, just what you are doing!
Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity!

I like thinking about it as a bottleneck. That fits neatly with how I'm seeing the issue.

The calculator for 1-digit math has helped my frustration level, and he has enjoyed playing with the new gadget, so I'm glad that makes sense to do. "Taking notes" seems like a smart way to reinforce the learning there. You're so good! We have used the times tables table (if that makes sense), and it didn't go as well. Maybe now that I'm less annoyed by the way he's working it would go better.

I also like the idea of doing the math facts as a memorization "class" separate from math. That seems workable and less likely to make him hate math.

He has not read "The Number Devil." What is it?

Thanks and more thanks, Grin!

K-

I recently read on a GT list serv somewhere about a parent that had a child memorize a multiplaction table every week for 12 weeks. If they could recite it cold on Friday, they would go to a movie or something like that. I think rewards shouldn't be overused, but when it comes to something like this, it may be useful! This is one of the first things I was thinking of working on with my DS if we homeschool. He sounds like he's exactly where your DS is in terms of math fact recall. And I totally understand about needing him to buy into an idea! I think this is part of the deal that makes a regular school so hard for these guys, isn't it?

I also think Grin has a great point about being developmentally ready for certain things. We had the exact same experience with learning to read an analog clock with DS. Only recently mastered skill. We also don't own a functional analog clock either, so I suppose that didn't help at all.

Yes, I think rewards for annoying chores have their place, so like you, I'm not opposed to something like that either, kimck. I just haven't felt like it would work with him yet. He's been very resistant. Maybe now that I'm so much more laid back, with a little time, he'll be ready for that sort of thing.

I think what I'll do is propose it as an option, dangling the carrot in front of him when I propose it. Then I'll let him decide when he wants to try it. I think we'll be more successful that way.

I also worry that as you and Grinity both suggest, maybe 6 is just too early for easily memorizing such things if they don't come naturally. I vividly recall memorizing the times tables in 3rd grade, and how much fun it was to race against my best time. DS doesn't seem to have any of that spirit yet. I wonder if it is a skill as much related to emotional development as to intellectual development.

Anyway, thanks! Very helpful!

Kristin,
We do drill math facts, but with a twist. I have a workbook of math drills. I copy the pages and we make a competition out of it. DS LOVES to beat DH and I on them. We handicap ourselves by having to do it with our offhand or with the page upside down. We do not make it easy for him to win, but he is getting about as fast as us on the addition and subtraction. Multiplication and division are still weighted toward Mom and Dad. He also really likes to beat his personal best times so we do the math drill, then chart his times on a graph so he can see how he is doing. (and lay the groundwork for stats...) (edit, since we crossed posts..DS is in third grade lol)Aleks online math program has really helped DS to learn to stay focused and double check his work unless he wants to do extra drill. Those piepieces really get his attention.

Our WM issue is more to do with the physical act of writing while composing. So much of his school activities require him to write x number of sentences in cursive or write a 2 page journal entry about his weekend. That sort of stuff. DS literally cannot keep up with how to form the letters, spell the words and write coherently all at the same time. He also hates to spend more time than he thinks he should on the assignment. We are working on his keyboarding skills to let him type a rough draft before physically writing it. Much easier to make corrections in Word than in his notebook. We are working on brainstoming options and the use of key words to help stay organized.

We also recently started him in drum lessons (he wanted them and I'd put him off with piano for 2 years). A side effect is that the drum set requires him to focus on multiple actions at once in a way that he finds fun. I'll have to see if over time it improves other activities as well.

Not much help I think we take the idea of building coping skills and teaching him that this will be a long term source of frustration for him and that there are things he can do to help compensate for the WM and processing issues. However, they DO require him to learn different skills from many of his classmates. Concepts that I really didn't learn until college like actually doing rough drafts lol, he is learning now.

FWIW...

As a former writing teacher, I'm thrilled that your son is learning to write drafts now! Brainstorming, prewriting, key ideas, revision...all things I had to slave away to teach 19yo college students. If it helps, feel free to tell your son that I said they're all mandatory for the good writing of anything, and that he's going to be way ahead of the curve on that score if he learns it now!


Actually it's all very helpful! I appreciate your sharing with me. The competition with me is something I'll consider working up to. Though I'm not sure he'd be all that into it yet, he might get there if I'm patient, and it's a good tool to have in the old toolbox. It is possible that it may just be a personality thing instead of an age thing though. Our DS6 is not generally a very competitive kid. There are exceptions, but I'd say he's usually more self-motivated than competitive, so I don't know if competition will work for him.

The Aleks pie pieces are another sort of reward, limited and esoteric though they might be, so it's pretty clear to me that I'll want to do something of that nature. Helpful!

Did you do any math drill when your DS was younger? I'm still musing about when is the "right" time to press the issue...

The writing issue sounds challenging. I don't think we adults usually think about how much is involved in getting thoughts down on paper. Typing first and writing second is brilliant! Did you come up with that? What a good idea.

Happily, our DS6 so far shows no such issues. He's a natural speller and his handwriting isn't bad, I don't think. (Though I confess that I'm pretty lenient about such things compared to the elementary teacher he had who marked every tiny slip over or under a line... If it's close and he practices regularly, I'm usually not too nitpicky about it.)

The drum lessons sound very brave of you! How is that going?

Anyway, thanks for sharing! I really appreciate it!

Change the "DD10" to "DS6" and this is our story exactly, kcab! Right down to his coming home with uncompleted work.

Food for thought. Thanks!

Good thoughts kcab, that is how our son has been most of his school career also but for writing assignments instead of math.

Kriston,
Thanks for the support on how we are approaching the writing issues. I feel like a terrible Mom when I make him do things 2 or 3 times to get what I consider an acceptable report. (or at least something that the school can't use against us...) DS is a great speller when it is the only thing he is trying to do. In fact he is doing well in the spelling bee at school right now. It is only when he is composing and writing it that it gets a bit off kilter.

At age 5-6ish, I think he was really into mentally doing these types of problems as we drove places in the car.

5+7+12+15 = x (Up to 6 or 7 addens I think)
12-8+7+6-2 = x

how many 6s are in 36

150+25-75 = x

He loved amy problem that included a letter so we also did alot of

6x - 10 = 26 wit hbot hpositive and negative answers

Also in the car we did times tables up to 12. Once he was good at reciting them in order, we started mixing it up. Of course for every question he answered, he got to ask us one too... Almost like making him do double work since he had to decide if we gave him the right answer.

Drill though did not really start until this year. I think the idea of using a calculator or spreadsheet for simple computation to work on concepts is a really good idea The tables sound good also. I might have DS draw them up as well. Maybe use them to play a type of bingo game...

Oh, and surprisingly, the drum lessons are going very well. The set is huge and takes up about 20% of the living room right now. looking for a loft bed for his room... But, he really likes it and places alot of really interesting patterns and beats without being obnoxious. I can see the math skills at work actually, seeing him try to figure out how he can fit 7 differnt tones into different rhythyms

elh - a drum set!? You are such a nice parent! How fun.

My DS also brought home almost every worksheet he saw in class last year in kindergarten. And for us, it was more writing than math also. He was much more advanced in math than in reading before kindergarten. Now that is totally reversed. Some how, some way we'll get him in accelerated in math next year. Homeschool or otherwise.

I too would suggest car rides. Does he like to spell? You can ask a few spelling questions, then a few math questions, then a few spelling questions ... Let him to ask you questions as well.

elh0706 DS5 likes the same kind of problems. Dinner time seems to be his favorite time. 3x + 10 = 5x, 1/9*x = 17 and such seem to be his favorite ones.

Hmmm, math facts on car rides could be a problem. His favorite thing in the world (besides Transformers, of course) is to play "the last letter game," where we take turns naming a word that starts with the last letter of the word before. So "aardvark" leads to "kleptomaniac" leads to "cavort." And so on.

It's virtually the only concerted vocabulary and spelling work I do with him, he loves it, and we play it nearly every time we're in the car. I don't think he'd take kindly to subbing in math facts for the game...

I'll see what I can do, but I'm betting we'd have better luck during school time on this one with our particular child. I'll see if I can think of a way to work it into the car without complaint though. Thanks!

Hi Kriston,
I don't know a lot about the IQ discrepancies, but I work in special ed. I know that, in my state scoring "too high" on IQ testing should not disqualify a child from receiving services. At first, I thought having an IEP wouldn't really matter in your situation because of the HSing, but if the school situation is changing, it may help IF you feel there is a need for an MFE. Our school psychologist explained to me that the biggest factor in determining a need for special ed. svcs. is - does the disability interfere with the child's learning.

He may not even need a formal evaluation if he's being HS and going to a GT school. You are more than capable of meeting his needs at home and the school is probably used to having children with varying abilities in different subjects and willing to accommodate his needs without an IEP.

Thanks for responding, therah.

I know that having some high scores alone wouldn't disqualify him from needing an IEP, but if all his scores--IQ and achievement--are at least average/at grade level, he wouldn't need an IEP, would he? If not from his scores, how else does one tell that a child needs an IEP? (Pardon my stupid questions!)

I mean, DS6's lowest score on the IQ test was the 109 on Processing Speed. That's not indicative of a problem on its face--it's an average score. Perfectly acceptable. However, the fact that his processing speed is 42 points below his Perceptual Reasoning score might seem to be a problem! That "bottleneck," as Grinity so aptly called it, seems like it's going to cause him the very problems I'm seeing.

I don't know if it translates this way (and I certainly mean no disrespect to those with diagnosed LDs--I'm just trying to figure this out...), but it seems like a child with a 100 on the PRI and a 58 on the PS would be severely handicapped and very frustrated. Seeing that scenario mirrored at these higher numbers now makes me think that my DS is having similar sorts of problems.

Is it an official disability though? I'm guessing not, unless there's more to it than the WISC scores, something else that I haven't ID'd.

I guess I'm wondering what to ask the GT school for, what to say to the teacher about him for next year. This year isn't such a problem, since he's already got a "virtual-IEP" thanks to HSing, and I now am aware of what the problem is and I have some tools to handle it. But next year, when he's getting his math from them instead of from me...Hmmm...

Am I making too much of this?

There are research articles saying HG/PG kids brains develop differently than ND kids. Evidently ND kids reach maturity (full thickness) of cortex at about age 7-8, whereas HG/PG continue to develop until age 11. Although I'm probably butchering the findings and am too lazy to look it up right now, what this has meant to me is that our kids have a bigger window of discovery that is important to nurture. Their IQs can indeed change during this period. DS's best friend had an IQ jump of 15 points from age 7-8 to 10.

My DS 6 is 4th child and I have not worked with him much (old, tired face). But I do see that his processing speed improves as he gets older. His teacher plays "around the world" where she holds up a math problem and the one who solves it first wins and can keep winning if no one solves subsequent problems faster. This has helped him with math facts, but I don't know how to do it in HS setting. Having a classmate who is advanced encourages him to advance. They are working out of Comprehensive Curriculum books, some ALEKS, and now a 4th grade Houghton-Mifflin Math book.

There are numerous educational diagnostic tests available to educational psychologists, speech therapists, audiologists, occupational therapists, ECT. I our case, IQ and achievement were primarily used as a basis for comparison to results of additional investigative testing. My daughter attended a prominent university psych Ed department for three half-days of testing. Results from various earlier tests and her prior IQ and achievement tests were also incorporated into their analysis and report.

My daughter was tested for ADHD, visual perception, auditory perception and memory, in addition to another administration of IQ and achievement, the WISC IV and WIAT.

Some examples;
Her auditory sentence memory percentile rank was 79, while her word memory percentile rank was 45. Her word discrimination landed at the 1st percentile! Her compensation strategy for information presented via auditory means is to figure it our based on the context of the discussion/topic. _

This deficit matched her very low (unfamiliar) word and pseudo-word decoding skills which we have been warned will affect her reading comprehension. Her reading comprehension abilities have been greatly supported, to this point, by her very strong vocabulary skills. However, we are just recently seeing her reading comprehension percentile ranking decline as had been predicted. Although, this has occurred later than expected.

delbows, cym, Dottie, thanks for clearing up my ignorance about these matters. It sounds like the simplest way to do an initial check is to compare IQ to achievement.

His math fluency was a lot lower on the WJIII, but no one seemed to think much about that at the time. I mostly chalked it up to his dawdling personality. Now I'm not sure that's all.

I'm still chewing on all this, trying to make sense of it and decide what to do about next year. Hmmm...

Paths crossed there, delbows.

Thanks for the personal example. It helps to hear about real cases like your DD's.

I think my DS is at most a borderline case. I'm not even sure he's that. Mostly I just want to figure out if I should do more to prepare the school for his attendance than hand them his scores. If I need to pave the way, I want to be thinking about that now.

Thanks!

DS had a much lower working memory (digit span 9) and processing speed scores on the WISC and the psych was ready to give him an ADD label. But on the SB5, he hit the ceiling (19) on verbal working memory. In this case, it became clear that DS thought the WISC tasks were really really boring and loved the SB5 tasks, so he engaged.

I don't think we can label him with a disability, but it is clear he has trouble working through things that are boring and that quality will pose a challenge to him. But I agree with the folks who are saying that a discrepancy on one IQ test is hardly the whole story.

NOT THAT THIS APPLIES TO YOUR SON Kriston, this addtional information is for our lurkers.

I had always described my daughter�s case as border-line or subtle. I was firmly corrected in this characterization of her profile by the head of department of this U. She stated that my dd�s diagnostic testing indicate highly significant deficits and the fact that she is so smart masks the extent of the problem to casual observers and I should not down play it.

Kriston -- Sorry to be late on this!

I agree that basic facts could be slowing him down, but he may just be going through a lower interest phase. Can I ask what he's working on? Mostly because I'm curious, but also to see what he's doing that shouldn't be taking so long. :-)

We're working on multiplication facts at home now, since we're starting to move into more complicated math (B just learned how to add with carrying, subtracting with borrowing is next), so here are my thoughts.

Funbrain.com is great for memorizing basic facts. The whole first two "math arcade" levels are based on addition and subtraction facts up to 20 or so -- he's on level 3 and I'm waiting for them to throw in some multiplication, actually! Anyway, B loves the games and, if he's taking an enforced break from his regular gaming, that's what he'll choose to do.

We also got him a little 3x5 notebooks and wrote his multiplication facts in it -- we did the same thing when it was obvious he was starting to read sight words at 3yo, but with fun words for him. Something about making it ourselves makes B much more interested! Plus, when they're in the notebook, flashcards are much harder to lose. :-)

(ETA: We only work on these when he's interested; as soon as his attention wanes, we put them away. If he thought we were pushing it, he's never do it. :-0 )

Sorry I don't have much to add except my own experience ... but I also wanted to say thank you for the Last Letter Game! Ds loves it and we play it often. I'm thinking about mixing it up and doing the Second Letter Game -- there are too many es and ys in the Last Letter game! :-)

Mia

I wonder if a large number of unidentified GT kids would test similarly to your daughter? And without given help in the deficient area the child's performance in the gifted area falls off -- thus leading to the remarks by some educators that "they all even out around the 3rd grade"!

Just wanted to mention that our OT helped improve DS's working memory through games like Rush Hour, Hopper, Guess Who, and other games that require you to hold information in memory while you try to think of your next move. She said that most of the Think Fun games did this, but the one where the guy has to cross the rapids is more linear - the puzzles just get longer, not more complicated and may not be the best choice.

His speed has improved tremendously this year, too, but our OT seems to think that it's because of improved willingness to do schoolwork, and improved focus. So he's probably no faster in terms of ability than he used to be, but he is better able to show his abilities now. Mia's suggestion of fun practice games is a good one, as basic facts get better with practice, and DS will practice more if it's fun.

LOL, CFK! No, I think my lazy approach sounds a lot like yours!

******

Mia: Hi! You're not late, but I'm glad you're here!

Virtually any math problem takes him longer than it strictly should, and I don't think I'm just being a perfectionist there. It can literally take him an hour to do a handful of problems. he tries to do things in his head instead of writing them down, and that makes it worse.

The worst time for us was at the end of Singapore 2B, when we took our break from Singapore. But he was just doing all the same stuff he had been doing, only more so: 3-digit addition and subtraction with borrowing/carrying, basic multiplication, etc. Since 3-digit is not significantly different than 2-digit, it didn't seem like it should be that big a deal. He completely understood the concepts. He did not think it was hard to do. (Nor did he find it too easy, BTW.) It just took him FOREVER to finish.

He is slow at anything but geometry, essentially. Geometry is a breeze for him.

(To answer your question about what we're on now, it's the start of 3A, 4-digit addition and subtraction with borrowing/carrying and basic multiplication. Second verse, same as the the first...)

His interest in math has never been very high, which, frankly, is another thing that makes me wonder if there's more going on. I mean, if his PRI is so high--and everything I know about him supports that score as pretty much dead-on--then shouldn't he be more math-y? But aside from the obvious puzzles, mazes, patterns and the very basic geometry that Singapore offers, he's just not math-y. Or is early math just not likely to appeal to a kid with a high PRI because it IS so founded on math facts, rather than graphs and patterns and all those things that are his strengths?

We tried Funbrain.com, and that didn't go over much better than the other stuff we've done, I'm afraid. It was okay, but he didn't seem to get much out of it, nor did it seem to appeal to him at all. He did it because I asked him to do it, but he asked how soon he could be done with it. Not a raging success...

Maybe I just need to be more systematic about my approach? I fear I'm going at the math facts too piecemeal, and I really need to commit to an approach and stick with it if we want to see results. I'm just so wishy-washy about whether he's ready or not, or if there's some other problem, or, or, or...

P.S. You're welcome for the Last Letter Game! And BTW, we use the Es, Ys and Ss strategically, to make it harder for the other player and a more challenging game. Bombard them with a string of silent Es and watch them squirm! We actually cackle about it when we "get" one another that way. Moaning and groaning about how mean the child is for giving you yet *another* Y is good for a laugh from them, too!

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To all:
Please don't think I'm basing my concerns on one test. A couple of you have made it seem as if that's what you think I'm saying, and it's not accurate. Honest, I know better than that! I have a healthy skepticism about IQ tests in general. (Remember that I started the thread by asking if I should be doing something to boost his WM and PS abilities, which I wouldn't ask if I worshipped the almighty test as absolute!)

No, I'm basing my concerns on the past frustrations of 3 teachers, his father and--most importantly--my own frustrating experiences with teaching math to DS6. The scores just back up what I'm seeing and make me wonder if this might be more serious than I had previously thought. I am utterly ignorant about what even constitutes an LD, let alone how to recognize one. But this isn't about a discrepancy on one test.

I want to be sure I'm not treating the symptoms and missing the disease causing them, you know? Maybe the symptoms are all there is, but what I'm trying to decide is if there's something causing them that's more serious than a dawdling personality or a lack of math facts.

If there's nothing more going on, super! But if there is an underlying issue, how do I find it and what should I do about it?

What are these games and where might I find them? I've never heard of them. Think Fun games? Is that a brand-name, I guess?

Thanks for the tip!

LOL, Dottie!

I didn't mean to single you or anyone else out. I appreciate all the help!

But I did want to be clear that it's not the test that started all this. Actually, the WISC has been a good tool for helping me do a better job for DS6.

Ha! CFK - I love your attitude. We are so lazy at our house as well. My DS definitely would not be into straight drill approach either. He would be totally into it if it were a game.

I have no idea about scores and WM and PRI or how I look on a test. But I do know, for me, math was excruciatingly painful and "boring" until I hit algebra. And then everything clicked and it was totally easy (I have a BS in Math and csci). I remember sitting in 3rd grade staring at a problem FOREVER while the rest of the class was done and off doing something else. Maybe I was overthinking things? And come to think of it, I never really knew my facts until algebra when I saw the need. We did memorize the table at some point, but I instantly forgot it until algebra.

That's reassuring, kimck! It makes sense, too.

DS6's darling (engineer) dad didn't fall in love with math until he took calculus. He loved the visual of it. DH's brother (also an engineer), teased my husband that he always graphed *everything*! Visual-spatial anyone? (It's pretty close to the truth, actually!)

Engineering runs in my family as well. I suspect DS6 is pretty well fated to be a math-y engineer, whether he likes math at this point or not. I don't care what he becomes, as long as he's happy and productive, but I'd be surprised if he goes any other direction. He's looked like an engineer almost from birth!

Maybe our DS's were seperated at birth!? I would be shocked if our DS doesn't do something math-y too when it comes down to it. And of course, whatever he wants is totally fine, but it's definitely in his blood. He obsesses over anything technology based. Both DH and I were software engineers at the same company when we met. Something about DS and DH looks very engineer-y. In the cutest way possible of course. My DH (yes, DH) got a lego mindstorms for his birthday last year, and now the "boys" fight over it. DS cannot wait to get his hands on it.

Hi Kriston -
I wanted to say that if you start a homeschooling class in "memorization" don't put 'math facts' as the first thing on the agenda. Let him know that he won't always get to choose, but build up those drill muscles a bit before you go back to an area that he already feel bad about.

Of course 'important phone number' is a family favorite, and does have numbers, you can brainstorm with him what he would like to learn, and let him choose the first 'clump' or two, then important phone numbers, then a chunk of the math facts, then something else - perhaps the location of type writer keys ((red face)) or "Miss Mary Mac?"

Also - see if you can get him moving or using his hands as part of his memorization. Maybe a kind of arobics were each number is a movement, gross motor or finger play, and then the phone numbers (and later the math facts) become a kind of dance?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I remember jumping rope to the tables as we memorized those facts!

Kriston - I had a thread over in twice exceptional about the working memory thing too. Grinity had some good advice for me over there.

I wanted to respond to your question about the Think Fun games. They are wonderful! Target and Toys R Us has them and they are online too. Here is an online link for Rush Hour www.puzzles.com/products/RushHour/RHfromMarkRiedel/Jam.html . You can play online to see if your DS might be interested. DS7 and I LOVE ThinkFun Games and have 3 of them that we really enjoy playing. I just need to get DS10 playing them too. He's not as good as little brother so he doesn't enjoy playing them as much but I think he'd really benefit.

Good luck!

Thanks gang!

I knew I saw the memory thing, but I couldn't find it when I wanted it. Thanks for the tip, EandCMom! I'll check again.

And P.S. kimck, I think there is a very specific gene for engineers! I'm pretty sure that my engineer father was secretly disappointed to have two English majors for children. That his older daughter married an engineer and looks to have at least one engineer for a child soothes him greatly, I suspect! <tee hee hee>

I'm resurrecting this thread after just finding it. My son is high in WM (138) and "low" in PS (109). This thread seems to talk alot about memorizing things. Is that part of PS as well? Could a low PS also apply to other things than doing math problems? Like writing? Or, putting on clothes? Or, gathering toys and carrying them to his room without stopping 100 times along the way? Or taking forever to sort the laundry? Or is all this just him being easily distracted. I'm not sure of how broad an activity the PS covers?

I know sometimes he struggles because I can see that he can remember something, but he just can't get it out and then he gets distracted and just says something and then moves on.

Good thread. Lots of good ideas for math.

Well, my DS6 has the exact same PS score as your son, and you just described him PERFECTLY when you described your son.

I think some of this is just being that age, but I'd bet that having an HG+ brain working at average speed has something to do with it, too. Our kids wind up going deep, not fast!

By the time DS6 has folded his laundry for the week, the next week's pile is ready to be folded. SOOOOO not fast! Nothing for it but patience and practice as far as I can tell.

My 2nd grader has the exact same PSI as well although he has a 5pt spread between PSI subtests so I read that it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from that - could just be one bad subtest bringing the PSI down. I don't think he's HG though somewhere in that grey MG/HG border but he sounds very similar.

Most of the time it seems his clock runs slower than every one elses when it comes to tasks. He has no sense of urgency. Well, he was completely different on vacation w/ the grandparents. Every morning he bounded out of bed, got dressed, brushed his teeth and was ready for that days adventure lol.

I don't see it so much w/ academic pursuits though. He's not super fast w/ math problems but several of his classmates have said each year that Ds usually finishes first and gets them all right. He's not a HG+ kid though doing 4 digit addition/subtraction problems all in his head. Sometimes computation takes him longer b/c he will find the most convoluted way of figuring out something when simply estimated to 100 and subtracting 2 would get you there much quicker lol.

I still wonder what does this all mean if anything.....

Kriston - I just re-read your original post. My DS(almost 8) has the exact same WMI and PSI scores as your son. Now I'll have to go back and re-read this thread lol.