Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy feeling overwhelmed!!

My son was recently tested for his school's gifted program. He scored pretty high from what I can tell but I feel like I've failed him as a parent. I don't think I've been challenging him appropriately and despite his scores, he doesn't seem like a typical gifted child. He's 10. He likes Bakugan and playing Wii and hates brushing his teeth. He will read if I make him, he will do some math if I make him and getting him to write a half way decent paragraph is impossible. I have been poking around here for days and googling gifted kid stuff but it just doesn't seem like my kid fits.

He attended gifted programs from kindergarten through 3rd grade. He was tested in kindergarten and even though we moved three times (husband is in the army) he was allowed to stay in the program. To be honest, I really didn't think he belonged in the program. I talked to the gifted teacher and she assured me that he was a good fit and he really was enjoying himself and keeping up with the other kids. When we moved from Republic of Korea to Kansas, the Kansas schools required new testing but they were hesitant to conduct it because of my son's classroom preformance. Although he had already been in gifted programs at other schools, that wasn't enough to show that he needed the extra challenge. BUT, they were curious to see how the heck he was in gifted programs but was preforming at or below grade level (4th grade) and decided to do the testing.

He went crazy with the tests!! He wrote an essay, scored 140 on the wisc-iv, told the tester that he enjoyed spending time with her but that learning subtraction facts was hard and would eventually kill him and so on. I don't understand why when he is tested he will do well but in the regular classroom he acts like he will surely die if he does anything but tear up pieces of paper and squirt glue inside his desk.

I don't even know where to begin. Someone help me. I'm not a gifted mom!!

Take heart, LoT5! We're all muddling through as best we can here.

I was identified as gifted. I hated brushing my teeth too. So do my kids.

As for reading, everyone is different. Some of the kids described here devour books, but others don't. I can eat a book for lunch if I really like it, but I don't find very many that I like quite that much. My kids are the same. I especially find that a lot of the mainstream books for kids can be formulaic and very same-y with one another. It doesn't surprise me that my kids don't like all of them, especially if the formula of a series doesn't resonate with them.

Giftedness doesn't mean constantly wanting to read or do math or whatever. It's just a way to say that someone learns a lot faster than other people. That said, everyone is different and some gifted people may want to do academic stuff constantly (though most of the ones I've met like to go to the movies or cook a meal or go the beach sometimes... ).

From what I've learned and observed, some (many?) gifted kids have trouble in the school system because the rote aspects of it don't stimulate them (math facts are a good example here).

I let my eldest learn his multiplication math facts by applying multiplication in other areas (division, etc). I made sure that he knew a small nucleus of them, and then figured he'd memorize the rest over time (he has).

As for squirting glue inside the desk, here are some of the things my son got into trouble for when he was younger:

* Tearing up a piece of paper he lifted from the teacher's desk.

* Squirming too much during circle time in kindergarten

* Playing The Haunted Bathroom with a group of other boys. This was a major scandal, and none of the parents ever really understood why, given that no one got hurt and nothing got flushed.

None of my kids has ever squirted glue inside their desks, but I'll be sure I don't tell them about this idea --- I don't want to inspire anyone.

Okay, I hope that helps. Welcome to the group!

Val

Thanks for the welcome

I spit pepsi on my computer at the "haunted bathroom", that was hilarious, thanks!!

About the math facts... they do timed tests in class and it takes him FOREVER to complete the test. So whatever. It takes me forever to fold a basket of laundry because I hate it so much so maybe that's the case for him??

All the parents thought it was rather amusing, too. But the staff was Very Serious about the whole incident. We all had to go in for individual parent-teacher conferences over it!!

Have you asked your son why he hates math facts?

I get the laundry folded pretty quickly, but you do not want to know how long it can take me to get it put away sometimes.

Val

That is so silly! When my son was in Kinder he drew a picture of a teradactyl (sp??) farting and he got in serious trouble. I busted up laughing every time I thought about it, his teacher was so old fashioned. How can you work with 5-6 yr old boys and not think farting dinosaurs are the best??!!

I will ask him about the facts tomorrow. He took the wisc-iv and his processing speed is really slow, the gifted lady said that can affect timed tests. But still, that wouldn't affect him actually knowing the facts, just how fast he can recall them and write them down right?

I think so, though I'm not an expert. My understanding of processing speed is that you have to take the information in, which means:

* Recognizing the information (e.g. 12- 5 = ?). This means recognizing the numbers and the signs, and then putting it all together to work out what you have to do.

* Then you have to get the answer

* After that, you have to send the new information back out again and get it on paper.

Some (many) people just don't do this super-quickly. That's okay and it doesn't mean they aren't as smart. They might not do well, say, on game shows where they have to shout out the answer before anyone else does or on timed tests. But they might do very well in situations where it's important to spend a lot of time thinking about something.

You might be able to talk to his teacher about the slow processing speed and ask what she can do to help.

Val

Yes, we have a slow-poke here with math facts, and yet he is 10 and doing alright with algebra (online; long story how we got there).
Anyway, rote memorization can be a real pain for gifted kids, until they see a reason to put a chunk of info into their heads, they will hold off... or, in my ds10's case, he would just recalculate each problem, not seeing the need to actually really memorize (which does make it take longer). Then pile on that the anxiety that comes from being on the spot/timed and knowing you didn't do so hot the last 12 timed tests.
When he does other math/harder problems there is less emphasis on the computation being fast, so he forgets to be worried about it and it hardly comes up.

Welcome!

ps, we also had a haunted bathroom thing with our ds and some other kids during a play they were doing, some people were really freaked out, all the kids did was scare themselves a tiny bit; pretty funny stuff!

There are lots of us who feel that way, lol! I have four gifted kids, but none of them is building nuclear reactors in the basement or writing deep, meaningful poetry. Many parents here might disagree, but I think a LOT of that has to do with parental involvement and exposure (which I don't think is bad, mind you; I think it's wonderful, but I just don't have the time and energy and money...). So, we muddle along and are grateful to be in a school system that has offered my kids gifted programs and challenges. Often, my kids seem too "average" to be gifted, but I also think that family dynamics can really affect that. When I'm in the regular classroom, I'm often reminded that my kids are more different than I've realized. When my older children's friends/SOs are around, they comment on how "smart" our family seems. It honestly seems hilarious at times- do we seem extra smart when dd20 is wearing high heels and a mini out in Chicago weather or when sports-obsessed ds8 is going on and on about the Bears' chances? But then I get little flashes of insight that they really are bright (and yes, we're usually as surprised as I just sounded, lol!!). Hang in there, and if you can, hang out in your son's gifted classroom. Unless things are really different where you live, I'm guessing it's just like my sons' gifted classrooms - lots of relatively smart "normal" kids - they still whine, and fight, and goof off, AND have occasional flashes of brilliance!

First off, WELCOME! I can assure you that classroom behavior does not mean a child is NOT gifted! You should research gifted underachievement. YOu will be surprised by the wealth of information you will find that may just describe your son! I can tell you that I have one child ID'd as gifted, though there was no doubt in my mind since birth with that one. I have another DC that is the total opposite as far as being outwardly gifted. Has not been ID'd yet and is young, but I can tell you, that based on his behavior and personality, I won't be surprised if he never is. His drive is TOTALLY different. He doesn't like to read, hates to write, and hates to do anything school related. He has always been laid back and is not a performer. He learned to tie his shoes and I had no idea he knew how until one day he tied them shocking the socks off of me. I asked him how and when he knew how to tie his shoes and he replied, I've known for a long time, I've just never told anyone. His teacher has been caught by a few of these things too, telling me she was shocked when he did something but acted like he's done it forever. I told her he probably did and told her the shoe story. That's just the way he is. He will do it on HIS TIME, when he's ready. When he doesn't do it, doesn't mean he doesn't know how, just that he's not interested in doing THAT time and he may NEVER show you he knows how, because he doesn't obviously see a need in expressing that he can do something. My other child is the total opposite! SO.... like I said, just because he doesn't show it in the classroom, may just have a lot to do with his personality and also a BAD FIT in the classroom. If the school was questioning his scores, obviously they aren't very knowledgable about how gifted underachievement can run rampant in an inappropriate school fit!

I guess slow processing speed could also point to some type of learning or memory deficit, e.g. a person has to always calculate multiplication facts because the person can't remember them. But for that same example in a kid, it should be at least as likely that the kid just hasn't memorized all the facts yet for one reason or another, but is good at remembering how numbers fit together and decent at doing calculation using that knowledge.

My older son tied his classmates shoes together in circle time when he was in Kindergarten, and my youngest is a constant source of new emails coming home to inform me of some new issue. The younger one seems to be a natural leader, and when he gets a goofy idea in his head, the rest of the kids follow suit. He's incited all the kids in his first grade class to get up from their desks and march around the room singing Canon in D, he convinced his recess buddies that climbing the slide while holding onto each other's backpacks was a good idea until one of the kids at the top of the ladder fell and pulled the rest down, and he actually has a waiting list for kids wanting a chance to "star" in the next "movie" that he shoots at home.

I think gifted kids tend to look at ideas that pop into their head and ask, "Why not? Wonder what would happen if..." - and then they go for it. It's just the challenge if directing that creative drive in a direction that won't lead them to a life of sitting in the hall or principal's office.

As to not knowing his math facts and complaining that they're hard - it could be an indicator of a learning disability, but it might just be the gifted mind not wanting to mess with rote learning. My older son hated to read, and he despised writing so much that he refused to create a short story for some writing festival his school was hosting in elementary school. And since 100% participation was required, the teacher passed a page around the room and had each kid add a sentence to the last. They put my son's name on it since he had one sentence in it that was actually his, and that was his entry. This is a kid who now reads college science and math text books on his iPod Touch for pleasure.

Thanks everyoen for the input.

The gifted facilitator and psychologist did say that the low processing score was due to adhd, which he has been diagnosed with. They made some accomodations with an IEP for him for the classroom which includes extra time on standardized tests and not having to show work on concepts that he's mastered (can do in his head). Not sure if that counts for timed multiplication tests but in teh grand scheme of things, does it really matter if you can do 100 multiplication facts in 5 minutes?

I'm not sure if he actually has memorized the facts or if he is calculating them as he goes. On the woodcock johnson test, he scored 96 percent on math problem solving and 32 percent on math fluency mult,sub,add. I just think it's strange that there's that much of a gap between the two scores.

LotsOtots5 - sent you a PM.

Hi,

My DS10 sounds alot like yours! He scored 142 on the verbal portion of the WISC IV, but had a low processing speed score (100). He hasn't been diagnosed with ADHD, but I wonder sometimes.

He likes video games, beyblades and manga comics. He was a very avid reader early on (reading 200 page novels in grade 2) but now seems to prefer comics and ghost stories. He has very little interest in school, needs to be coerced to do his homework and gets As and Bs. He also took quite a while to learn his multiplication tables (requiring bribes, etc on my part, which I don't like to do) but is excellent at math logic.

He considers himself to be an average kid. I have been feeling lately (since we had the testing done) that I'm failing him somehow by not finding a more stimulating environment. He was in a Montessori school and had lots of behavioural issues (writing letters of protest to the principal, staging demonstrations at recess, subtly trying to pull a hair out of a boy's head to make a voodoo doll, etc). I switched him to a regular public school (there is no gifted programming where I am) and the stricter, more structured approach has helped -- he hasn't had any behaviour issues at the new school, and pretty much does his work when he is told. But . . . he still says that school is a waste of time and feels that he is being forced to learn things that will be "of no use to him in the future".

So, while I have no advice, I sympathize!!

I asked my son about the multiplication facts. He said they're boring. I asked if he thought maybe he should just do them and get them over with and he said no, they are a waste of time. So I ask him what he would do if he didn't have to take timed fact tests anymore and he said "poop". Yes, so very insightful.

Verona, thanks for sympathizing It's nice to know there are others out there with similar situations. My son likes graphic novels. We're headed to the library today because I saw a whole slew of yu gi o graphic novels that I know he'd go nuts over. Hey, at least he's reading something right??

Have you tried the "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" series? My son loves them, and I think they are pretty funny too!

I promised my son a new video game after he had learned all his multiplication tables (being able to answer without a pause using flash cards). He learned much faster after that! I don't like using rewards generally, but I figured it was something he really needed to know and it wasn't easy for him. I also got him to consolidate them by doing lots of multiplication and division problems -- he didn't mind that so much.

Do you have details on that WISC IV? I'm thinking that if he scored a 140 on Full Scale including low processing speed, he might have some 'super high' scores on other areas, right? Have you seen him inside the classroom? Does the school work seem hard or easy? Does he rip through his homework or study of tests? Did they end up putting him in the Gifted Program even with his behavior?

Look up 'Twice Exceptional' - the combo of AHDH and Gifted can be quite a handful. For him, for you and for the teachers.

Ask yourself if your son has decided that 'messing with the teacher's heads' is more interesting than anything else that is going on in the classroom. He wouldn't be the first 2E kid to decide that.

Also - is there another sibling who has 'cornered the market' on 'good at school' (I'm reading into your 'lots o tots' username.)

Welcome and glad you are here!
Grinity

Welcome!

Timed math facts have been an issue for us too. Last year (gr 2) DD had to do "Rocket math" where they needed to do 40 simply addition problem in a minute, if they didn't get it the first day they did the same ones the next day and the next and the next until they finally managed to get all of them done correctly in a minute. Well, after about 2 1/2 weeks on the same set of 40 questions DD was convinced that she was horrible at math and could not do it! Eventually we figured out that like your son she thought they were stupid and didn't see the point of having to do them that fast. She could do the facts, but wasn't interested in going quickly because she would have to write sloppily! When we suggested to just do them and get it over with, she too refused saying it was a waste of time.
Her teacher used this issue as an excuse to not give her other more appropriate work in math because "if she can't do simple rocket math then how can she possibly already know how to multiply and divide?" It was a very frustrating time for us. We finally convinced the teacher that she knew the facts and that as scientists DH and I would not allow them to continue to convince our daughter that she hated math and was no good at it. We got them to agree to decreasing the amount she needed to get correct each day and eventually her confidence started to return.
Good luck!

Verona, he loved those books!! He's read most of them I think. Then he got into these books called "bone" and now he's got one called heroes of olympia or something. It looks like a series but we've only seen one book around so far.

Grinity,
I do have the scores. I don't know that his processing speed is REALLY low but it looks low compared to the other scores. He scored 136 on verbal comprehension, 143 on perceptual reasoning, 141 on working memory and 100 on processing speed. I have the scores broken down by the individual sections but I'm not sure if that's useful. The school psychologist said that the low processing speed was because of adhd and she said it was no big deal since they were doing an iep and would allow for extra time on standardized tests. Also, they did let him into the gt class. It's once a week for a whole day.

And I think my daughter might be my "good student" She is a well rounded girl and right on track for 2nd grade. The big difference is that she is a people pleaser and my son isn't.

Kerry, I'm going to decide that it's not a huge deal. The teacher isn't holding him back from learing other math but he does have to do the same test every week until he passes. He says he does know the facts but that he just can't do it fast enough. He doesn't seem really concerned with it.

A link you may be interested in- "Faster isn't Smarter"
http://mathsolutions.com/documents/9781935099031_message18.pdf

Cathy Seeley is Past President of National Council of Teachers of Mathematics- her logic seems to play better, in my experience, with teachers than gifted research for whatever reason.

Thanks CAMom!! Interesting article

CAMom, do you have the book? The Amazon review says that she answers this question, "This book of forty essays includes topics for new teachers and veterans on everything from specific mathematical material to general ideas, such as, it is a teacher s job to keep students interested, or is boredom a developmental stage?". What was her professional opinion?

Oh, yeah, apparently these fact sheets are sometimes optional, if you go and speak with the teachers, etc. We have 'team' meetings for my ds10 sometimes and early on this year the math teacher just dropped these annoying, discouraging math fact sheets. At least in his case they do more harm than good.

I have to highly recommend epgy beginning algebra as a way that my ds10 has been able to get back to liking math, at least compared with other school work.

Bone is a great series -- a very high quality graphic novel with interesting stories. There are at least 10 books. For novels, has he tried Percy Jackson? I've not read them, but according to my son, the main character is a very smart boy with ADHD and dyslexia. His difficulites in the "real" world turn into "gifts" in some sort of parallel mythical universe. They are pretty long novels, but my son really liked them. Hunger Games and the Aretmis Fowl books were also popular.

Wow - that is some high working memory score! That's a great thing to have with ADHD because even when he get's distracted, he's probably still able to keep some of his mind on task. Also the Verbal and Perceptual scores are very high, but not so high that that mismatch between him and the other kids in his gifted class would have to be a problem in itself, it still might be, but less likely. Try to get allowed to sit and observe that gifted day and see what is going on in there - true intellectual challenge for your son or more of 'this is boring, I can get more from causing trouble than from keeping this seat warm.'

I agree that 100 might not qualify as a Learning Disability in some school because it is average, but I call that a 'bottleneck' as it sure feels like a LD to your son! So that means that every time he has to work on 'timed math facts' he has to face feeling "Maybe I'm not really smart after all."

If you can get your son alone and connected, it would be great to ask him about how he sees the similarities and differences between himself and his sister. It may be that because she is a girl, she 'doesn't count.' Or not. Is he older or younger? In the US, in most families, if only one child is 'family-identified' as gifted, then that is a boy. Of course the one exception I know is a family with 3 ADHD Gifted boys and one gifted daughter - in that family it was the girl who got all the parental 'certification' for smartness.

Anyway - lots of 'unusually gifted' kids I know have very little interest in jumping through hoops for good grades at school. And lots of 'unusually gifted' kids do well in school, and don't even seem to notice that there are hoops to jump through. So much has to do with personality. Kids with 2E issues seem to find the hoops quite noticable!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Oh boy, do I ever feel where you are coming from. I often feel like I am letting my DD8 down or failing her in some way. She was identified as PG last year to our complete surprise. We thought it was just her ADHD.. and to some extent her issues in school do stem from that. Our biggest struggle is that she is the most unmotivated smart child in the history of the world. She does not want harder school work or different school work. She hates what she has to do now. She gives the bare minimum that is required, and that is with much encouragement. Her school is happy to challenge her but she wants no part of it. She would rather focus on recess and playing with her friends. On one hand we are happy that she has great relationships with her peers and is well-liked. On the other, I feel like we are failing her somehow.

DD's psychologist is a big proponent of following the child's lead. She said that we need to focus on her interests at this point in time and forget about the word 'potential'. It is DD's choice as to what she will ultimately do with her abilities. I am trying my best to be supportive of keeping her a normal and happy kid at this point. I think parenthood is fraught with doubt and worry that we are not doing the right thing. I wish you luck with your journey.

I don't have it but I've been debating buying it! Our library doesn't have it and I can't get it on interlibrary loan either. I need to just suck it up and buy it because I've used several of her essays in working with my school's teachers and in advocating for my DS.

Are you sure we don't have the same kid? Research the issue of underachieving gifted kids. It really helped me. I also had to determing that my son is an intrinsic learning and couldn't give a flip what other think about him. He does not suffer fools lightly (takes after mom) I have to be careful that if he feels a teacher doesn't know their material he tunes out and becomes an issue. Does he throw out the "its too hard" excuse? This was so funny from when he was talking physics but doesn't know facts. The whole automaticity of facts can be an illusion. I learned that sometimes our kids are busy trying to entertain themselves by doing it in some long abstact way instead of playing the game.

I don't know Kathleen'smum....I love the idea of following a child's lead, but in the end I'm more of a 'supported push' type parent. Afterall - our kids won't know that we believe in them if we don't push from time to time. And what about environment? If all a child is ever surrounded with is kids who don't have her potential, then who will she look to as a clue to what is possible? I think one of the key things we miss as gifties is a reasonable peer group to compare ourselves to. And for our daughters, what about sexism, or any possible 'natural' tendency of females to blend in and not make waves? Expectations for females are lower enough in some cultures that what if 'following her lead' is just 'following her perceptions of artificial limits?' See the problem? But I agree that forgetting about the word 'potential' is a good idea - but that still leaves goals like 'getting to know one's true self through hard work' and 'learning how to engage with the challenge of learning material at the top of ones readiness level.' These are goals for all children - it's just that the ND kids get them without anyone having to articulate and plan and scheme. By definition, yes?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Luckily we can always we can always go with "kid's are resilient. As long as the parents are flexible and willing to drop any plans and change direction within 15 minutes of hearing a convincing reason..." the family will be fine.
Right now I'm putting a variety of activity's on the boy's plate with the minimum expectation that he be willing to dabble in everything and letting him determine the depth. From what I'm reading online this could be wrong. If I let him chose only his preferred activities he will learn to operate at a deeper level which is transferable to every other activity. But I think he'll have access to his own natural depth either way. I tell myself, "every mother must over-think every little thing too much.". " Just quit thinking and go vaccum or dust the furniture.". I tell myself, Lol.

I talk myself in and out of agreeing with the psychologist on a daily basis. I wish so very badly that there were better (any) resources in our area. We can't even find a group of peers for DD because there are NO gifted groups or associations... no gifted programs... nothing. I love the idea that she would get to know herself through hard work. I just wish I could wave a magic motivation wand at her. At best, she gives a moderate effort at the things she is interested in.

I love this forum and reading others' posts and responses. It challenges me to be open minded and reminds me that I am not the only one struggling, doubting and worrying. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

It is too bad that there isn't decent resource evenly distributed....this is the very reason why so many of us 'settle' for gradeskips. But remember that
'gifted' is just a label, and not a very helpful one at that. Look for chess clubs, library book groups, Reptile clubs, science fiction fan groups...keep an open mind.Try things. See if your state gifted society has any programing or telephone support. Once you figure out where your local peers are hiding it gets a lot easier - sometimes the organization is very informal.

Peers can be agemates, interestmates, or thinking level mates. Depends on circumstances. I think the trick is to mix and match.

The way I look at is 'Parents are in charge of the environment, kids are in charge of what use they make of it.'

Best Wishes,
Grinity

yes, 100% agree.