Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Would you test further?

Hi, I am new here and have a question (or two) about testing. My dd is in Kindergarten and will not be 6 until this summer. At the beginning of the school year, she tested 5th grade in reading (with full comprehension) and 2nd grade in Math by achievement tests given at her school. Her GT teacher also adminstered the COgAT which she scored 150, 140 and 150 on the subtests. I was not given a composite score. I hesitate to share these scores but since I have seen this test mentioned before in this forum, I am hoping some of you can provide some perspective as to dd's abiliites.

I have read that the CogAt does not accurately determine a child's IQ yet I believe I read in another thread that one of you mentioned your child had been identified PG by the CogAt. In your experience, can the CogAt be a good estimator of IQ?

Also, dd's GT teacher is recommending a grade skip for next year but I hesitate without thorough testing. Would you recommend further testing or is the CogAt coupled with the school's achievement tests reason enough to warrant a skip?

Because she will not be 6 until this summer, we would need to wait to test her with the WISC. I have been told she shouldn't take the WPPSI (I think that's correct) because she may hit too many ceilings.

Any thoughts? Advice? Am I in denial by needing further testing before I admit the obvious?

Thanks in advance for reading and assisting a newbie like myself!

Jamie

Welcome! Glad to have you here!

Generally speaking, group tests like the CogAT aren't as accurate as the individual tests (like the WISC and Stanford-Binet). However, I believe the problem with the group tests is that they tend to show kids as scoring *lower* than they do on other tests, not higher. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. That says to me that you have one very bright child on your hands!

I certainly think that if you have a specific question to answer that wasn't adequately answered by the CogAT, like "Is this school going to be equipped to handle my child?" or "Should we grade skip?" or "Should we apply to the Davidson Young Sscholar Program?", then you should consider further testing. If you don't have specific questions and the school seems responsive to the information gleaned from the CogAT, then you may not need to bother with more testing.

(Also, you should probably note that the CogAT is not one of the tests that DYS accepts on their application, so if you want to apply, you will definitely need to administer an individual test.)

I think you have to wait until age 6 to administer either the WISC or the SB. You're right that you could give your DD the WPPSI now, but unless you need the scores for school, I'd recommend waiting and administering the WISC (since she's verbal) once she turns 6 because of the ceiling issues. That means the WPPSI might not tell you what you want to know and might not give your DD the scores she needs to get into DYS, even though it sounds like she's probably a good candidate.

My only concern about the skip based on what you've told us would be the 2nd grade math. If she's coming in average at 2nd grade level, math could fast become an area of frustration for her. However, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd take the skip and do a little math work with DD over the summer to be sure she's ready. Assuming you don't think her social skills are a problem, and assuming she's happy with the idea of the skip, then I wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. I'd also start planning playdates with the older kids ASAP.

And to answer your final question, yes, you're probably in GT denial, but you might as well join the club! I think the majority of us here are in some form of GT denial or another! The big things to decide are 1) what question are you really asking, and 2) do you really need another test in order to answer it?

I don't know that you need more testing to know that she's going to be bored silly in 1st grade, do you, really?

But then again, when faced with a similar situation, I had my DS tested because his achievement test scores were *so* much higher than I expected them to be. It's like I needed a tie-breaker test to show me that it wasn't a fluke! So it's very easy for me to say, "you don't need to test," when I needed it myself!

Welcome to the journey! It's quite a ride!

Thanks, Dottie! I knew I'd get something wrong. But I was awake, so I figured I'd take a crack at it.

Dottie's post also reminds me of something I meant to add: my DS got 43 of 44 right on the CogAT in his strongest area, Nonverbal, which is a score of 140, or 99th percentile. His WISC score on Perceptual Reasoning, the comparable WISC subtest (I think), was a 151. He only got a 118 for Verbal Skills on the CogAT, so he was in the 87th percentile--not even GT!--for verbal, though he's currently having an easy time with "Old Yeller," a 5th or 6th grade book. That's a good 5 years above grade level, but the CogAT didn't even show him as GT in that area!

I tell you this to stress to you again that I think you have a *very* bright little girl on your hands!

DS was 5 years, 9 mos. and in K when he took the CogAT, so I'd bet this was the same level test as Jamie's DD. Same age, same level, right? That might help with making sense of the numbers, maybe?

Yeah that Welcome to the club! My DS is the same age like your daughter. He took WPPSI at 5 years 3 months and while he hit quite a few ceilings and we might have not gotten accurate results, it did prove helpful. We finally realized that he is not an average gifted kid but that he belongs to the top of gifted kids and as such needs more accommodations. We had known that he was gifted even before that but had thought that for sure his (small private) school must have seen bunch of kids like him. Wrong.

I would say go for the grade skip. I wouldn't worry about the math since the test was done at the beginning of the school year. If she tested as an average 2nd grader at the beginning of K, chances are that in Sept she would test at least as average 3rd grade or have the potential to get to such point pretty fast.

Good luck and welcome.

Thank you to everyone for your replies! Our dilemma is needing to test right away if pursuing a grade skip but wanting to wait until this summer when she is 6 for a more appropriate test.

Adding to the confusion is a factor I left out of my first post. She has a sister in 1st grade so if we skip her they will be in the same grade and, more than likely the same class.

So, we either test and advocate for skips for both of them or we do another year in their current situation and hope for the best with in class differentiation.

Her older sis tested 5 pts lower on each sub test of the CogAt (145, 135, and 145). She was recently tested as 6th grade reading and 3rd grade math.

As far as a skip goes, I am not terribly worried about the math, or any other academic area. My dd's both pick up concepts very easily with little repetition. I think they would test higher in math if we did more at home. We read each night at bed time but we don't do bed time math problems .

I worry most about their ages - they are already almost a year younger than many classmates and a skip would widen that to two. I don't see either of them as particularly mature and ready to "hold their own" with an older crowd.

We have a lot to consider. Thank you for the perspectives and advice you have given me so far.

Jamie

Hi Dottie - yes, the plot thickens. I didn't want to throw too much at everyone at once!;)

How do your kids handle being in the same grade? We worry that the younger one will always be in the older one's shadow.

Our school has a cooperating GT trained teacher at each grade level so the Id'd Gt kids are grouped in the same class and that teacher works closely with the GT coordinator. So, if they were in the same grade , they would really need to be in the same class,too.

I'm not sure how either of them would feel about a skip, we haven't mentioned it to them because I don't want them to worry needlessly.

If we did skip, though, I would want to do it gradually by having them start to visit the next grade this year and get comfortable with the kids and the different expectations so they wouldn't jump into it *cold* at the beginning of next year.

This is why I am asking about testing, etc.

It may all be a waste of time b/c the GT teacher said our district really frowns on grade skips and that they are "nearly impossible" to achieve.

However, if I'm convinced they need it, I'm willing to fight for it. I guess I just need a little more convincing first. (and dh needs A LOT more convincing!)

Thanks!
Jamie

Jamie,
I guess I am wondering if there is something specific that you wish to accomplish with the skip. Is first grade notoriously boring for kids at the school? are there no teachers who are good matches for GT kids? Will the school be unwilling to do adequate subject accelerations through elementary? Are your daughters unhappy, bored, getting lazy intellectually?

I have a son who is perfectly capable of skipping and has even casually been offered one by the principal. But he loves his class and is getting most of his needs met with subject accelerations, so he has no real need or desire to skip. Each year he has been in school has been useful to him in many ways--with each teacher having something unique to offer him. We would have bee sad to miss any of his elementary years. I know we have been lucky in a variety of ways and that under other circumstances we probably would have seriously considered a skip. Each year I worry that this will be the year that there will be problems, but he's in middle school now and everything is going great.

I just think a lot depends on the child's personality, their attachment to their classmates (especially for girls social relationships can be important), and the schools ability and interest in meeting the child's needs creatively. These factors are just as important as the test scores.

Jamie.
I feel for you becuse I was agonizing over a similar question only a few months ago. Here is what I have lerned, what became clear:
- they have to be involved, even young kids need to express their opionion, so talk to them and their input will be invaluable - it might actually change your perspective!
- they younger they are when grade skipped, the better - they do not overanalize things so much when younger.
- look at your daughters as individuals, the fact that one is grade skipped, doesn't mean the other automatically has too - this was my biggest eye opener.

Thank you for all of the replies. It is comforting knowing there are others out there who have or are currently dealing with similar issues.

Everyone brings up very valid points, many of which are concerns of mine and some which are new.

For some, a grade skip is the best way to go, for others it is not. I need to figure out what is best for my dd - both of them.

acs - I am not sure I know what I want to accomplish through grade skip as much as what I want to avoid. I want to avoid my dd having to endure the mind numbing drudgery of repetitve instruction on topics she mastered over three years ago. I want to avoid her feeling like a complete misfit because no one else is capable of performing even close to her level. I want to avoid her learning how to hide her abilities and thus, her true self in order to *fit in* with *everyone else*.

I agree that each year will bring something positive, but my problem is - will one small positive overshadow the many negatives? Her K year has been a great one solely b/c of an awesome teacher. Even her K teacher worries about moving her on to 1st grade.

Having said that, I am still very uncomfortable with the idea of skipping either child, but particularly of skipping just one. So much so, in fact, that if a skip appears to be our only option , we will probably homeschool instead.

We are pursuing testing and will meet with the GT and K teacher in the next few weeks to discuss options. Right now, I am hoping to come up with some creative solutions such as subject acceleration and hand-picking teachers comfortable with diferentiation for next year but, we'll see.

Thanks again for all of your input and advice and your willingness to share your experiences! I truly appriciate it!